May says she won’t allow any other “course of action”.
No she hasn't, she has been quite clear that the house needs to make a decision. Until MPs are willing to give up their preferred option to coalesce around something else, nothing is going to change. There is no majority for any option at present, a cliff edge is needed to force one.
Rumour from Brussels is that they're saying "non" to a June extension. It ether has to be much shorter or much longer.
A delay to the end of the year justified by having another referendum is surely inevitable now? I can't see any other viable outcome (though I've learned not to be surprised by anything any more).
Surely if any of the other EU members reject the extension request, then its no deal or rescind A50…
They could reject extension next week, but say they will allow it IF the Withdrawal Deal is accepted first… with only a few days for parliament to do so (or not).
LBC reporting Macron says non.
Ah, Mefty… "quite clear"…
she has been quite clear that the house needs to make a decision
She means… they need to decide to back the Withdrawal Agreement she has negotiated. Nothing to do with looking at "other options" and coalescing around one.
what are the opposition doing…..
Facilitating Brexit, obvs. Oh... and it was the kebab awards this week
https://twitter.com/chrisphillips76/status/1108334346895802368
Until MPs are willing to give up their preferred option to coalesce around something else
You mean parliament giving up and accepting her view? I don't think UK government is meant to be autocratic is it?
she has been quite clear
😀
You mean parliament giving up and accepting her view? I don’t think UK government is meant to be autocratic is it?
Indeed her bonkers red lines have trapped the nation in a box, she has no credibility left
she had been saying for 2 years we would definitely leave on the 29th last wekk she said we'd definitely have a long delay if people didnt vote for her deal, today shes said its a short delay...
Anyone is allowed to change their mind if the facts change.
That aside, stupidity, ego, and incompetence abounds.
You mean parliament giving up and accepting her view?
No if you look at the votes that have failed (EEA, Mays deal, 2nd referendum etc), it is always because more than 1 group has voted against them. Until one of those groups gives up hope or fractures, no majority will ever be possible for anything, something needs to give.
Anyone is allowed to change their mind if the facts change.
Except the electorate it would seem.
If no-one can agree on what form of brexit we want, three years on and with only a few days left, an obvious solution rather presents itself here...
Until one of those groups gives up hope or fractures, no majority will ever be possible for anything, something needs to give.
Which of those did May not apply a whip for Mefty? What is she hoping will "give", other than opposition to the Withdrawal Agreement she has negotiated? She has made it the only game in town since November.
If no-one can agree on what form of brexit we want, three years on and with only a few days left, an obvious solution rather presents itself here…
Thunderdome?
Anyone is allowed to change their mind if the facts change.
But the language used made this into a humiliation instead of just a natural fact. Instead of 'well we'll do our best but there are a lot of problems to overcome, I'm still planning on leaving in March' it was 'WE WILL LEAVE IN MARCH'. Now she's blaming parliament for not doing what she says. FFS. We could have done this so much better. Instead she's made a highly acrimonious situation far far worse by trying to bully everyone - including us.
only a few days left, an obvious solution rather presents itself here
Go with the one "I" like the sound of?
There is a good cartoon in Private Eye this week with a bloke saying "lets just get on with it, make a compromise, and do what I want"
No if you look at the votes that have failed (EEA, Mays deal, 2nd referendum etc),
When did may put those forward? Attempted ammendments are a messy thing and not the same as votes for them.
If no-one can agree on what form of brexit we want, three years on and with only a few days left, an obvious solution rather presents itself here…
The thing is there is NO compromise that makes any sense. That's always been the case and it was obvious to those willing to think objectively.
No deal makes no sense because of the economic harm.
Soft Brexit makes no sense because you're bound by rules you have no say in.
May's deal is about as good as it's going to get, but it's hated.
What did they think was going to happen?
In a parallel universe....
One of the most powerful members of the EU is being ousted by the former top dog.
All EU workers are recalled to the mainland leaving crops in the fields and hospitals understaffed.
UK residents on the mainland are stripped of their health cover forcing them to leave their homes and return to the UK.
Food and medicine are held up at the ports which lead to vulnerable people in the UK dying.
The pound collapses and the economy needs half a trillion pounds injected to keep it afloat.
Tariffs are placed on all UK exports causing the collapse of our farms.
All EU firms are ordered to relocate to the mainland.
It would be fair to take these actions as a declaration of war.
It's just that it's not a foreign country declaring war on the people of this country but a handful of corrupt billionaires and their cronies.
Ah, Gladiators! Harking back to a simpler time when Wolf was kind to grannies and Jet set every young boy's heart a-flutter.
Not sure how it would work today though, I mean, Theresa is taller than Angela Merkel. Would that extra reach make up for the fact that Angela would be naturally harder to hit?
What did they think was going to happen?
You think there was 'thinking' going on? This has always been fuelled by populist natianalism. There's precious little 'thinking going on
And can we not forget the labour parties essential role in all this almighty cluster-****. Corbyn whipped his MP's to trigger Article 50 (thus starting the countdown to no deal) when the only expressed policy from May was 3 words 'Brexit Means Brexit', then whipped his MP's to reject continued membership of the customs union, then whipped his MPs to vote against remaining in the single market. Oh... then whipped his MPs to abstain on a second referendum.
Everyones blaming May (rightfully) but the beardy brexiteer muppet sat across from here is equally as culpible for this shambles! The labour party has acquiesced in this at every single critical juncture. This is truly a cross-prty catastrophe
however now MPs are forced to either back May’s deal or come up with another course of action.
Vote of non confidence.
Some remainer Tory MPs have indicated that they would bring down May's Govt rather than allow No Deal to go ahead.
So my prediction
– Todays vote lost by 150
– Article 50 extension of around 45 days
– No meaningful change to deal
– Faced with threat of not getting it though Kyle Amendment is accepted (Labour amendment agreeing to support deal on condition of it going to second referendum)
– 2nd Ref called and lost*
– New Tory Leadership*
– General Election**not sure about order of this bit.
So I'm doing okay on my predictions. Was out by one vote on the first point, a few weeks out on the second.
Lets see how I get on with the rest.
Some remainer Tory MPs have indicated that they would bring down May’s Govt rather than allow No Deal to go ahead.
They've said a lot of things, but when push comes to shove they fall into line and do as they're told. They're utterly spineless
If we rescinded A50, and then triggered it again on the 30th, or whenever, would that mean another 2 years, or can we set the terms/duration of it?
You think there was ‘thinking’ going on?
No, that was purely rhetorical 🙂
natianalism
I can't tell if that's a typo or not 😉
If we rescinded A50, and then triggered it again on the 30th, or whenever, would that mean another 2 years, or can we set the terms/duration of it?
iirc, there's a "good faith" clause within A50, to prevent exactlythat kind of shenanigans.
would that mean another 2 years, or can we set the terms/duration of it?
The legal opinion seems to be that is rather unsporting and not allowed.
colp
Subscriber
May is an autocrat
Pessimus Prime?
Very good.
Can we not forget the labour parties essential role in all this almighty cluster-****.
No, because every fourth post on this thread is you reminding us about it.
Stolen from that Twitter -
"Brexiters imagined this would be the moment when Jonny Foreigner looked across the poker table and into our flint grey eyes, swallowed and folded. Instead, we are careering around honking the horn on our clown car while the EU watches the sandwiches curl on the negotiating table."
You think there was ‘thinking’ going on? This has always been fuelled by populist natianalism.
It's almost like it has been decided that we haven't had a jolly good war for a while and we just need some sort of excuse to roll out the jolly old army to have a jolly good old round of fisticuffs with fritz and those frenchies. Tick this box if you want those funny foreigners to bugger off home and we'll stick two fingers up at the elites in europe, and, er, hospitals will be amazing. Quick, sing some bollocks about rule britannia.
The whole thing makes me thoroughly embarrassed to be British. Not just the way it was campaigned, but the amount of non-thinking idiots that voted for the complete bare faced lies, the utter crock of a poo sandwich that has been presented for us in the intervening time up to now, the complete selfish egotism of the leaders on both sides, the disregard for the welfare of the state, I just despair at everything to do with it. We're on the titanic mere moments before it hits the iceberg, except its daytime and we have 20/20 vision of the iceberg and a working rudder, and we all know if go hard to port we'll be ok, but the knobs at the top are fighting over whether to go dead ahead into it, slightly to starboard and 95% into to, or even further starboard and aim for a different even bigger iceberg.
Find me a lifeboat.
What do Labour propose is possible in the 3 month time span they are supporting? If they are against a longer delay… then they are lining up behind the current Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal… yet vote against both… what is the plan…?
she has been quite clear that the house needs to make a decision
However, she has also been quite clear in preventing a process that might lead Parliament to arrive at a decision, such as holding indicative votes.
As has been repeated ad nauseam, the whole thing is about preserving the Tory party at whatever cost to the country.
This has always been fuelled by populist natianalism. There’s precious little ‘thinking going on
Sorry but that really is lazy thinking. Of course some of those voting out were fuelled by that but there are multiple factors at play for different people (part of which makes the "people have decided" so pointless since what they decided on varies massively).
Some voted out because they disliked the fact EU citizens could come here easier than people from India or ****stan.
Others because they thought the "elite" needed teaching a lesson.
So I’m doing okay on my predictions.
@franksinatra, at least one of those left will likely be announced in the next week… but which one? Could it be tonight? I think a General Election is more likely than a referendum, even though it would settle nothing as regards the upcoming chaos.
Find me a lifeboat.
I think Grayling has arranged them.
I think a General Election is more likely than a referendum, even though it would settle nothing as regards the upcoming chaos.
Well if 50% of the country voted LibDem...
pondo
Member
Stolen from that Twitter –
“Brexiters imagined this would be the moment when Jonny Foreigner looked across the poker table and into our flint grey eyes, swallowed and folded.
Is this just a part of the british ruling class's character? It seems to recur in different places. Frinstance, during the war, Churchill and Harris were completely convinced that bombing German cities would crush their morale and turn the war around, even though they'd literally just lived through a perfect case study in what actually happened in the Blitz. It's like the usual british exceptionalism distilled by a thousand years of breeding
The labour party has acquiesced in this at every single critical juncture. This is truly a cross-prty catastrophe
Here we go again 🙂
I can't be arsed doing the whole yes they did/no they didn't argument about the labour party's role in brexit again. But to move it on a bit, the thing to recognise about brexit is that it's a symptom not the disease. A symptom of decades of the white working class being marginalised by neoliberalism, and more recently a symptom of austerity in the wake of the banking crisis. The labour party are the only party who recognise that you can't solve brexit without solving the underlying causes. The wounds of brexit will never be healed until austerity is reversed and the people who voted for it begin to see some benefit from living in this supposed great nation of ours, and the only party who will do this are labour.
Some remainer Tory MPs have indicated that they would bring down May’s Govt rather than allow No Deal to go ahead.
They’ve said a lot of things, but when push comes to shove they fall into line and do as they’re told. They’re utterly spineless
I don't know about that, these last few months have showed me that, when push really comes to shove, backbenchers of all corners of the House have actually stepped up again and again like never before in my lifetime.
Oooops
https://twitter.com/JasonJHunter/status/1108313364764258304?s=19
The government really are not very good at this, are they
backbenchers of all corners of the House have actually stepped up again and again like never before in my lifetime.
A handful have most havent. Remember when there was a choice of giving parliament the indictive votes the tories sat and whistled.
Even the brave warriors of the funny tinge party left their rebellion to the last minute which could leave cynics to believe they didnt really want to risk standing up for remain but just wanted to be able to disassociate themselves from the mess.
25 brexit related tory resignations since the beginning of 2018 according to wikipedia
Notably Alberto Costa, asked to, and resigned on Feb 27th 2019 for tabling an amendment to protect EU citizens rights.
Or creating the change in circumstances required for a long extension - change of government, removal of mays red lines, second referendum. all still perfectly possible
I went to a two hour yoga class and I've just been for quick run and I've still not calmed down from PMQs. May was like a drunk at closing time swinging wildly and offering everyone out. Accusing Parliament of navel gazing indulgence and thwarting the will of the people just for doing their ****ing job - and proclaiming Corbyn as anti-democratic for even the most half arsed hints about a 2nd ref
She truly sounds like she's lost it - Those sat behind must be embarrassed.
Those sat behind must be embarrassed.
but as proved time and time again, they can live with being embarrassed as long as they are in power.
I’ve still not calmed down from PMQs
Are you serious? Did you not see how strong and stable she was? We can't have a second referendum as they already voted against that, can't be in the customs union as they already voted against that. Only thing left is her deal, (which admittedly they have already voted against twice, but third time lucky!) 🙄
Maybe you're thinking of the other meaning of "strong and stable", as in, weak and mad?
EU rules out extension if May's deal is not accepted.
So either we crash out with no deal, or the deal has to change. This an open goal for Parliament. They can force changes to it to soften it, or tack a referendum clause on.
EU rules out extension if May’s deal is not accepted.
Seems more subtle than that.
My reading would be so long as the maybot insists hers is the only option then its vote yes or no deal.
If she is forced to come to her senses and offer something else then it will be considered especially something like a confirmation referendum.
Did you not see how strong and stable she was?
This has aged well.
Although not getting a deal would be "an act of calamitous self-harm"* apparently.
*for the EU
Dominic Grieve agrees with me about May's performance - pretty much said the same but in polite language
My reading of Tusks statement is that a short extension is only possible if the WA is ratified. He says nothing about a long extension which has for a long time been available if something material changes ie May drops the red lines, a GE or Ref2
Was that Fail front page meant to be ironic, or did it happen by accident?
pretty much said the same but in polite language
We have some great MPs, talking complete sense, in parliament today… all back benchers of course…
ie May drops the red lines, a GE or Ref2
Yup. The key thing is a no deal will hurt the EU although far less than it will hurt the UK. However there is no point in them kicking the no deal down the line for a couple of months only for it to still happen (well a bit more time to prepare but thats it) so why bother.
If there is something more than the maybot keep giving the same ****ing option over and over (odd how its fine for her to do so but for the plebs once and thats it) then the EU will happily take it (governments owned by Russia aside but they will be slapped down so long as there is political value to the EU overall in it eg something more than meaningful vote 884646464646).
I'm not going to post a link, but there's a daily mail story that I saw on Twitter, and it suggests that racists and the far right infiltrated the vote leave campaign.
I mean who would've thought it?
Just as well we had such a strong position to negotiate from or we could have really been in trouble....
I like people but the general public at large are idiots.
I suppose we should be grateful. Most other countries in history that got too big for their boots and went for reckless nationalism had to have their arses handed to them on a battlefield. I must postscript that by saying ‘I hope’ as the tide of petty nationalism the Leave campaign unleashed will not be easy to put back in the bottle.
There is no such thing as a good Brexit.
That's an interesting reading tjagain.
Not just me. A long extension in exchange for a material change in what the UK is seeking has been a long stated position of the EU. tusk simply didn't mention this. Again its a longstanding point of view from the EU that an extension will not be granted just to kick the can down the road ie a short extension for technical reasons( bills to be passed etc) if the WA is passed is fine or a long extension if there is a new starting point but if its just for a couple of more months of bickering forget it
Andrew Neil (@afneil)
EU says no short extension unless Commons votes for May Deal. So if Commons rejects for a 3rd time:
No short extension
No leaving on no deal
No May Deal
Leaves long extension.
Which Mrs May implies could provoke her resignation.
I can’t be arsed doing the whole yes they did/no they didn’t argument about the labour party’s role in brexit again. But to move it on a bit, the thing to recognise about brexit is that it’s a symptom not the disease. A symptom of decades of the white working class being marginalised by neoliberalism, and more recently a symptom of austerity in the wake of the banking crisis. The labour party are the only party who recognise that you can’t solve brexit without solving the underlying causes. The wounds of brexit will never be healed until austerity is reversed and the people who voted for it begin to see some benefit from living in this supposed great nation of ours, and the only party who will do this are labour
Nailed.
The leaders were likely to agree to an extension up to 23 May or 30 June if May was able to find a majority in the Commons at the third time of asking, Tusk said.
However, Brussels expects the British government to request a lengthy extension, and hold European elections, if the deal fails again, to allow time for cross-party talks on a soft Brexit or a general election or second referendum.
from the gruaniad
May can only force a vote on her deal for a third time if it is substantially different from the deal (the term is misleading - "deal" simply means "framework to commence negotiations for a longer term trade proposal with an interim arrangement in place) that she has already tabled, twice.
Given that the EU cannot and will not amend their side of the agreement (May agreed to it last year, without consulting parliament first) then she has to address her own red lines in order to present a substantially different proposition to the HoC.
May has made Brexit all about her own red lines, she's been prepared to throw manufacturing and farming under a bus to get there. Given the inordinate clout from the headbangers of the ERG, she's caved to them in an effort to put party before country (yet again).
The only option left is for parliament to wrest control of Brexit from the executive.
adding a second referendum to the WA would be enough - and quite possibly adding simply the extension might well be - and there are other ways around the speakers decision
I’ve just received an email from my insurance company saying that if I want to drive in Europe after next Friday then I’ll need a green card
Looks like their assessment of where we’re headed is the same as mine. We’re crashing out with no deal next week
What a total ****ing shambles!!
I’ve just received an email from my insurance company saying that if I want to drive in Europe after next Friday then I’ll need a green card
Looks like their assessment of where we’re headed is the same as mine. We’re crashing out with no deal next week
What a total ****ing shambles!!
What's the precise wording?
Are the insurance company fishing to make a quick buck (likely).
Or do the insurance company know more than the governments of the whole of the EU28?
😀
May is making a statement at 8:15pm apparently. My money is on her saying soz everyone, it's a shambles let's revoke A50 and pretend it's not happened... everyone will then link hands across the commons and sing Imagine
Are the insurance company fishing to make a quick buck (likely).
If you're planning to drive abroad, you'll already have your appropriate international drivers license and green card… "just in case"… insurance companies need to make it clear how their systems are working to customers.
It’ll be to say that there will be a black and white her deal /no deal at all vote next week.
A last throw of the dice that’ll doom us all.
Jus now... Should be an interesting statement...
Ahead of their meeting with Theresa May, the leaders of the SNP, Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the Green Party released a joint statement calling on the prime minister to allow MPs to vote on revoking Article 50 if it is the only way to avoid a no-deal Brexit.
Ian Blackford, Vince Cable MP, Liz Saville Roberts MP and Caroline Lucas MP said:
“We agree that the House of Commons must formulate a plan that will give the EU Council the confidence to agree a longer extension beyond 30 June, so that by the end of next week legislation can be in place to prevent a no-deal exit.
“Parliament should now sit in continuous session until it can reach a decision and set out a clear plan.
“We will be pushing for the House of Commons to support a referendum on remaining in the EU, others will put forward their own positions.
“If the Commons cannot agree, as a last resort we would be prepared to take steps to secure a parliamentary vote on the revocation of Article 50.
“The prime minister must not be allowed to bully MPs into a choice between her bad deal and no deal. That would make Brexit a choice between disaster and catastrophe, and that would be a failure of truly historic proportions.
“The UK - and all of its people and nations - deserve better.”
How very mature of magic grandpa. Really?
Mark Francois has just been interviewed on channel 4 news. He’s creaming his silkies at the increasingly likely prospect of no deal
The man, in line with most vocal brexiteers, is an absolute moron. A total ****ing idiot!
This impending disaster they’ll just walk away from. I’m ashamed to live in a country where people are so profoundly stupid that they were taken in by lying charlatans like that clown
she has to address her own red lines in order to present a substantially different proposition to the HoC.
Agreeing to another referendum would be sufficiently different, as I understand it. And almost certainly now what will happen.
My money is on her saying soz everyone, it’s a shambles let’s revoke A50 and pretend it’s not happened…
As much as I'd love this to be true, it seems unlikely.
Mark Francois
... is a **** of the highest order. Plus, his name sounds a bit foreign.