[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

sobriety, i don't know if you would be able to do this but this is what i did.

I needed my dads birth-cert to get my irish passport so went here.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/1/bdm/Certificates/

Then sent this with a copy of my UK birth cert etc to Cromwell road and got the passport a few weeks later.

Might get you around needing to speak to family members if you can get an official duplicate?

Surprising number of my colleagues turn out to be of Irish descent - and the more senior the faster they are availing themselves of passports.

My wife missed out by one generation.

Me, I’m a highly skilled Scots engineer. Welcome anywhere they understand me (and quite a few places they don’t).

The final salary pension and a settled family are what ties me here for now, but in 14 years the pension tops out, the boys are at uni or working - my wife and I might just go wandering.

They won't be able to any more. Not only is it going to be far harder for people to come here, it's going to be far harder for people to leave too. Removing freedom of movement cuts both ways.

If you're young you can get a working visa for NZ as an example. Once you have a job you can start looking at more permanent status and getting sponsors. If you have family members you can use them to aid your escape.

The older you get the harder it is to escape, but it's never impossible, just harder. All Brexit has achieved is to make it harder to escape, the easy route to Europe will have been removed.

Bluntly, those at the bottom whinging are the ones who will be left behind, The very people you need to keep, the determined, the driven, those are the ones who will leave in search of better things.

Already checked with Canada and theyd have us, made a very good contact with lab in vancouver

also have a colleague who has set up his own team in France and has offered a position

with young kids concious we'd have to move before they hit gcse age

If you're young you can get a working visa for NZ as an example. Once you have a job you can start looking at more permanent status and getting sponsors.

Which is, as I said, far harder than simply getting on a plane.

it does look like trying to make sure you have a few emigration options up your sleeve would be a good idea.

My only personal option is the USA. Talk about 'out of the frying pan'.

Might be able to sort something through work.

Molgrips, no argument that it is harder, but for me those who are most driven and with the best skills are the ones who will do it. The very people the UK needs to attract and retain!

Have the option if you can.

Use it if you need / want to.

Well qualified people can work anywhere, not just EU. Wife and I have been in Japan, many colleagues to USA and Canada, brother-in-law Australia. Generally start off with a short-term working visa tied to the job but after a few years it's usually easy to get permanent residence/citizenship.

Thanks mrmo, that's a good back up if I can't get the death/birth* cert off family.

*Many moons ago it transpired that his birth cert was likely destroyed in a fire at the record office...

Theresa's shmoozing went well the other night then?

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/18/britains-20bn-brexit-divorce-bill-offer-peanuts-says-european/ ][url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/18/britains-20bn-brexit-divorce-bill-offer-peanuts-says-european/ ]null[/url]

So no trade talks any time soon.

Hows that cliff edge looking?

Well qualified people can work anywhere, not just EU.

Only if you are lucky. You need a combination of factors to make it work.

When you worked in Japan, did you decide arbitrarily to go and work there, or were you offered or invited to apply for a position by someone you knew? A current employer perhaps?

You need a strong element of luck to get those. I know someone who went to work in the US, but that was because his wife's employer wanted her to do a particular job there so they pushed it through for her.

And of course, if you are in a country on a work-based visa then your life there is dependent on your job. So you run the risk of being kicked out if your job fails, which isn't so bad for young mobile people but it makes it rather difficult to build a life even if you are lucky.

*Many moons ago it transpired that his birth cert was likely destroyed in a fire at the record office...

Quite probably, but not definitely

http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41667556

The EU Withdrawal Bill may not now be discussed in the House of Commons until after the Autumn recess, sources have told the BBC.
The law is designed to transfer EU law into UK law ahead of Brexit.
It is facing stiff resistance from some Tory rebels as well as from the opposition parties.
One official source said it was not yet back in the house of Commons because there simply "is not enough political agreement yet".
MPs return from Autumn recess on 13 November.

Well qualified people can work anywhere, not just EU.

Including in the UK. People with advantages will be fine, but it would be nice to imagine that we had a country where all could prosper, or at least be fed and housed. (I realise that this is anathema to the raving libertards.)

Well qualified people can work anywhere

I'm not well qualified. I still used my FOM rights to spend time in EU countries, to mutual benefit. I want those rights to continue and for my daughter to have them too.

Every leave vote is a direct and personal attack on those rights which I value, do not consent to being stripped of, and which she was born with.

Don't worry. Not everyone is thinking of relocating jobs out of the UK post-Brexit

The spokesman for Dominos Pizza has just been on 5 Live saying they'll be recruiting a lot more proud, patriotic home-grown native delivery drivers once all the bloody foreigners are sent home

Minimum wage on zero-hours contracts

Welcome to the bright sunny uplands of the post-Brexit future

Including in the UK.

I know many other scientists with similar views.

mol grips, I just applied for jobs. This is scientific research. Sometimes it works through contacts but not in my case. Yes I agree that initially the visa is often tied to the job but after a few years you can probably get PR of some sort. Japan is notoriously hostile for immigration but after 5y you can apply for citizenship.

Of course there's luck, from memory I'd applied for (and failed to get) jobs in Chile, Hawaii and Oregon before the Japanese one came along. You've got to be prepared to go where the wind blows to some extent.

Yes mattjg, it's an incredibly privileged position to be in and it's wonderful that people can (currently) go abroad to work freely within europe. Giving that up that would be a huge cultural and social loss to the country.

it's wonderful that people can (currently) go abroad to work freely within europe. Giving that up that would be a huge cultural and social loss to the country.

Yes I agree.

it would be nice to imagine that we had a country where all could prosper, or at least be fed and housed. (I realise that this is anathema to the raving libertards.)

What the hell does that mean?

I think he's saying that it would be nice if the people driving this whole thing had more honourable ambitions than gleefully creating some Ayan Rand dytopia, where they, along with their rich, tax-avoiding friends sit at the top of the tree, bathed in unimaginable riches, and the common peasantry, who have clearly failed at life, probably due to their own moral failings, knew they're place

^what he said

European Union leaders at a crunch summit dinner are set to rebuff Theresa May’s appeal for trade talks while they seek to publicly talk up her efforts in the Brexit negotiations because they fear that the prime minister’s domestic weakness will leave her unable to make vital concessions on Britain’s divorce bill.

The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, will lead European leaders in Brussels on Thursday in seeking to put the best gloss on their refusal to widen the talks, according to diplomatic sources. “There are ways to say it kindly and encouragingly or less kindly and less encouraging,” said one senior EU diplomat.

Is it a surprise?

Which bit? Very little has surprised me except the dogged perseverance of the Brexit lot, many are falling by the wayside but it must take incredible strength from Davis to keep going back to Brussels with nothing to offer - either that or he does actually believe what they said about him on dead ringers.

No suprise at all - just posting it to show the delusions of the leavers

Barnier is now meeting with corbyn and co - a sure sign they know its pointless "negotiating" with a lame duck tory party

got a link or a pic?? Some people might actually explode if they see that!!

Jeremy Corbyn will meet the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, in Brussels on Thursday, as he seeks to exploit Tory division over Brexit and present Labour as a better negotiating team.

As well as Barnier, Corbyn will hold bilateral meetings with three EU prime ministers, as Britain’s negotiating partners try to gauge the balance of power over Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/18/jeremy-corbyn-to-meet-top-eu-brexit-negotiator-michel-barnier-in-brussels

Barnier is now meeting with corbyn and co - a sure sign they know its pointless "negotiating" with a lame duck tory party

Actually it's stunts like this that make me think that the Brexshitters have a point. May is utterly hopeless but she is for better or worse (well, ok then, for worse) our elected representative. You know - democracy and all that.

You know - democracy and all that.

I think the EU lot know how much of a lame duck May is and how likely that there will be a new election before leaving day. I would think this is just to gauge how different Corbyns approach would be

IMO its 50 / 50 he will be prime minister before leaving day

Actually it's stunts like this that make me think that the Brexshitters have a point

Really ? Or sound like they are being far more diligent about the whole thing, there's a good chance May won't be PM before 2019 and there's also a chance that Labour will be in power.

IF the EU agree to a transition there's a very good chance Corbyn could be PM when we actually leave the EU, of course they have to consider what might happen in that scenario.
It's long term planning for every eventuality.

Quite the opposite from the short term internal powerplay that is determining the Tories approach to Brexit.

May is utterly hopeless but she is for better or worse (well, ok then, for worse) our elected representative. You know - democracy and all that.

If you knew there was a fair chance that you'd be negotiating with Keir Starmer in a year's time, you would be crazy not to try to establish a relationship with him ahead of time. If anything, it is a full acknowledgement of the reality of the democratic process.

You know - democracy and all that.

May is utterly hopeless but she is for better or worse (well, ok then, for worse) our elected representative. You know - democracy and all that.

She's got members of her own cabinet coming out and publically contradicting her position on a constant basis, and she's sat there like a lemon and taking it because everyone knows she hasn't the strength to do anything else!

If you were negotiating a contract with someone and were in broad agreement about the terms, then as you left the meeting their business partner took you to one side and informed you that they disagreed with all that had been arranged so far, and they wouldn't be honouring any of it, what would you think?

Would you think there was much point scheduling another meeting to sort out the details? Or would you go elsewhere?

The EU obviously think there's little point negotiating with May and her 'team', and pretty sensibly they're acknowledging that it could be a very different (and a lot more co-operative) flavour of government if there were an election tomorrow, so why not have a chat with them

The fact that meeting will further undermines May won't be lost on them either, I'm sure

So did anyone listen to the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning?

They had excellent guests, Yanis Varoufakis (former Greek finance minister) and Radek Sikorski (minister of foreign affairs in Donald Tusk’s Polish cabinet) on discussing to what extent the talks are just posturing, how Theresa should negotiate with the EU and what chance she stands:

Here are a few quotes:

Yanis: ..she is never going to succeed in negotiating for the right to negotiate. That right has been denied. Mr Barnier does not have a mandate to negotiate with her. He has a list with boxes and he needs to tick one after the other before any discussion takes place on what Britain wants from the European Union.

So my advice would be: cut your losses. File an application for a Norway-style agreement for a period of five years after the expiration of the period of the two year Article 50 process in order to enable your House of Commons to debate properly, without the ticking clock and the gun to your head, the future relationship between the EU and the UK.

Radek: We have experience of negotiating with the EU as a candidate. And Britain is now going to find out what it is like negotiating with the EU as a non-member and it is a very humiliating experience.
..
You have to know what your cards are. Britain is 15% of the European economy. If there is a disruption to 15% of Europe's trade then they can live with that. Whereas for Britain, Europe is 47% of your economy, so the disruption to you will be much greater.
..
Europe exports good to Britain and under WTO terms Europe will continue to face a very low tariff on goods. Britain has a huge deficit on goods, it makes it up with the export of services. And to export services you need to be in the single market and under WTO rules Britain will be excluded from that.

Yanis: You cannot overcome reality by the power of will. ... Armageddon is not nigh but Britain is facing long term decline under WTO rules. It's going to become a more parochial, more insular society, .. if it continues along the xenophobic path that goes hand-in-hand with the hard Brexit position

Listen from 2:53:20 for the full interview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b098bt3f#play

I guess I'd be happier to accept that the EU was acting wisely in the matter of speaking to Corbyn if they didn't have previous in the matter of trying to get rid of uncomfortable leaders like Tsipras, Papandreou and Berlusconi.

Yanis: You cannot overcome reality by the power of will.

Great quote.

^ +1 that's long been my main complaint over the way brexit is discussed by politicians. There are real physical logistical issues to sort out, bluster and soundbites doesn't do that.

Yes. They say 'oh yeah we can sort it out' except that now, thousands of people have just been given a shitload of extra work for the next few years. What were their jobs previously that they are no longer doing cos they're busy with this shit?

The government have ignored the greeks experience and advice from Varoufakis so far, maybe theyll start now, but I doubt it

Itll just be more empty soundbites & in-fighting from the government

My colleague just showed me Mays email to her

shes less than impressed that she has to go through another round of applications so she can stay here!

Only be an extra £80 quid this time though

(also wasnt this basically what Starmer suggested ages ago!)

The time for talking is long gone if you don't want a disaster.

Simple issues, where are the actions they need to be done to enable Dover to function post Brexit? Compulsory purchase of land to expand facilities, the tenders for new systems, the job adverts for new staff?

To get everything up and running for March 2019, it simply isn't going to happen. Not a matter of wishful thinking and it'll be ok, there simply isn't the time, let alone money, to implement what needs to be done.

Well qualified people can work anywhere

#this btw is utter nonsense. I am well qualified. I don'y think there is anywhere else I could work because of language issues. English speaking countries don't need nurses with my experience

To get everything up and running for March 2019, it simply isn't going to happen. Not a matter of wishful thinking and it'll be ok, there simply isn't the time, let alone money, to implement what needs to be done.