I think a lot of breziters would think that May has not negotiated a good deal
That's the one thing which many remainers and leavers alike can agree on. But it is nonetheless probably the best deal we're likely to get and a better deal than many people predicted (something something project fear something).
Why not May’s deal vs no deal?
Because "no deal" is not an option, it's what happens if we run out of options. The clue is in the bloody name for pete's sake. No-one would actively choose "no deal" unless they were either corrupt or stupid.
And I'm not saying "all leavers are stupid," but if anyone thinks "no deal" is a good idea and they're not a disaster capitalist, then either they've been completely disengaged from everything that's happened over the last three years, or they are in fact an idiot after all. Sorry.
Without googling it wtf does Fiji produce that we want?
I wouldn't have the Tories or UKIP in GEs.
The referendum has been had , leave won (I voted remain) I just can't get my head around people thinking it's ok to not honour the ref result.
I'm with Cougar. No 2nd ref, parliament should do it's job, accept that Brexit would be a disaster and revoke Article 50. It wouldn't be the first time a "manifesto pledge" has not been kept - or the last.
The old folk/gammons who can remember this have felt disenfranchised,they voted to join a Common Market,that was it.
Erm, I'm old enough to have voted to go in. I've never felt disenfranchised.
The referendum has been had , leave won (I voted remain) I just can’t get my head around people thinking it’s ok to not honour the ref result.
We have, been explained over and over again. Leave won, they have had near on 3 years to take the UK out of the EU, they have made a plan - no you don't like the plan. Tough Shit. Sorry but that is how it is. This is the option to leave it's take it or leave it.
Another very democratic process is going on, it's called parliament - they can't decide if they want to take the deal but have voted to remove no deal as an option - it's been removed by a democratic vote which means in your eyes it can never be taken as an option so it will never be an option until the end of time.
So now after knowing exactly what the process would be and knowing it's was a 2 year negotiation to do the first tiny part of leaving you don't like the answer - well nobody does but that is where we are.
What would you do next?
The referendum has been had , leave won (I voted remain) I just can’t get my head around people thinking it’s ok to not honour the ref result.
It's only a problem because Cameron said he would honour the result. Otherwise a damn near 50/50 split would never have been considered remotely sensible grounds for such a massive change in policy.
He shouldn't have done it, he's a very naughty boy.
So parliament voted to stop no deal and that has to be respected cos democracy.
Leave won the ref but that doesn't have to be respected, doesn't compute Mike
Nb I would respect both votes
What would I do now- I liked the indicative votes idea to find a deal that would pass through parliament.With hindsight it could have been done before A50 but with hindsight this mess could have been stopped many ways.
The referendum has been had , leave won (I voted remain) I just can’t get my head around people thinking it’s ok to not honour the ref result.
Three things:
1) Spending three years (and vast sums of money) attempting to make brexit a reality is honouring the result, even if the ultimate conclusion is that it's not possible to do so without massive self-harm in the timeframe we have.
2) having another referendum doesn't mean the previous one hasn't been honoured. That's how elections work, otherwise the Whigs would still be in government.
3) Page two argument, it was $%^&ing advisory and there is no mandate to "honour" it in the first place.
Four things:
(I voted remain)
4) I'm not sure as I believe you.
Leave won the ref but that doesn’t have to be respected, doesn’t compute Mike
Sorry trying to use leave logic there.....
Nb I would respect both votes
A page back you wanted May's deal vs no deal as an option... that isn't respecting parliament.
What would I do now- I liked the indicative votes idea to find a deal that would pass through parliament.With hindsight it could have been done before A50 but with hindsight this mess could have been stopped many ways.
If that is the case you have to expect that remain could be the outcome
So parliament voted to stop no deal and that has to be respected cos democracy.
Leave won the ref but that doesn’t have to be respected
Parliament voted to stop no deal and that has to be respected cos representative democracy. Parliament makes our legislation, not the electorate.
Leave won the ref but that doesn’t have to be respected because it was an advisory vote.
Also, see my previous comment. It has been respected, way more that it deserved given the allegations of corruption surrounding it.
I don't want May's Deal vs No Deal, I am saying it makes as much sense democratically as Remain vs Mays deal. We voted to leave A50 has been enacted, we are leaving. Remain is no longer an option.
Article 50 Cougar?
Nb I would respect both votes
Things that have been voted against in the last three years:
- keeping EU membership
- being in the Customs Union
- being in EEA
- joining EFTA
- staying in the Single Market
- leaving the EU without a Withdrawal Agreement
- leaving the EU with the Withdrawal agreement
- being still in the EU after March
- having another referendum
Whatever happens, several of those will have to be, er, disrespected, by subsequent events, and, hopefully, votes.
We voted to leave A50 has been enacted, we are leaving. Remain is no longer an option.
See here is the tricky bit, there are no stone tablets, the plan was never really written down was it. A50 has an exit clause - did we ever say we wouldn't do that?
Why the desperation to harm the country?
But to sum up, you don't like May's deal what are we going to do next to come up with a new deal, agree it with the EU get it through parliament, do all the other shit we need to do etc etc etc.
Sorry but play time is over the grown ups are coming back.
Remain is no longer an option.
How so?
Article 50 Cougar?
What about it?
Cougar I voted remain- get a grip.
and there is no mandate to “honour” it in the first place.
Apart from the 14.2 mil mandates.
The ref has hardly been ignored:
biggest increase in civil servants since the war.
£2bn wage bill just for them, £bns more spunked on prep, the NHS has become worlds biggest buyer of fridges (from Germany) to stockpile medicines in **** peace time!
Nearly £1trillion moved out of the city (including Moggs own funds) that alone is taking 1% of the government's annual tax take- way more than we spend on EU membership.
Every other bit of parliamentary business put on hold for the last 3 years, with another 5-10 years of this to go, meanwhile the country continues to crumble under austerity.
The brexiteers that sold us it have to a man & woman failed to come up with a plan, their negligence & dishonesty bordering on criminal.
No one has a clue how to proceed, May's deal is the only realistic option we have yet polls as the least popular in every group....
It is the very definition of a shitshow and looking at the last three years you'd be **** insane to think it's suddenly gonna get better as we head into the much trickier future arrangement talks...
Common Sense left the country someyime in 2016, I can't see it coming back anytime soon.
I'm also very very tired of seeing comments of social media that blame Brexit being a shitshow on Barnier, Juncker, Remainders, May, Corbyn.... not one of them thinks to take a bit of responsibility for what they voted for.
Respecting the result? I'm trying but it's not easy.
We voted to leave A50 has been enacted, we are leaving.
Not necessarily. The mechanism exists to revoke A50.
So what we can sum up from all of this is the only thing leave doesn't want to talk about is what their plan is to get a majority onside to agree a leave plan.
Cougar I voted remain- get a grip.
You don't sound like you did. My grip is just fine, what caused you to change your mind?
Apart from the 14.2 mil mandates.
14.2m what now?
Cougar you've accused me of lying. You're grip is not fine.
With a magic wand - yes remain.
Without the softest Brexit possible.
With a magic wand – yes remain.
Without the softest Brexit possible.
Well that is easy, campaign for remain or a 2nd ref then vote remain in that.
shake that magic money tree….
Shake it shake it shake it.
Ohhoo.. Where did all that money come from? Not from offshore tax free bank accounts that's for sure.
It comes out of the tax payers pockets via reduced public spending. Austerity innit.?
Nothing to see here. We're all in this together. Apart from the really rich people who aren't.
@ctk
This thread is impossible. The only view tolerated is one of hatred for brexit and those who voted for it, real or imagined. Any defence of the result or that the people who voted leave aren't morons is shouted down by the same posters, posting the same bitter views over and over again. 🙁🙁🙁
Yet you are still here, lips a flapping.
What are the benefits of brexit?
What are the benefits of brexit?
Stop bullying the poor brexies
Sorry Mike. I'll make every effort to stop bullying the poor and soon to be poorer brexiters that actually have to work for a living.
We could do multiple choice
Is it
A)
B)
C)
D)
E)
F)
Best of the ****ing best
couple of extra ones they are classics
I'm hoping somebody can remind me why this is all going not as predicted.....
Yet you are still here, lips a flapping.
What are the benefits of brexit?
And it carries on same people with their veiled insults. I voted remain you ****ing prick, there are no benifits that I can see but we lost get the **** over it !!!!
I sure as hell won't get over it.
I can see but we lost get the **** over it !!!
If the planners decide to put a chemical waste plant next door to your house do you object or "just get over it"?
Cougar you’ve accused me of lying.
Well, no, I said that I wasn't convinced that I believe you.
Now I'm accusing you of lying however, for claiming that I've said things I haven't.
This thread is impossible. The only view tolerated is one of hatred for brexit and those who voted for it, real or imagined.
All views are tolerated. It's just that some people disagree with other people. Do you want to stifle that? Why do you hate democracy?
I've been trying to think how this could pan out in the few years ahead, next GE is before May 2022, I'm expecting to go out on May's crappy deal.
It won't please remain, we've been utterly ignored, and it'll maybe please half of leave as they'll see we've left, but I'd doubt it'll go much deeper than a DM headline, a smile, and a carry on in thier own bubble
So 75ish% of electorate unhappy, then what? I Cant see the major pledge at the next election, I did think it might be Labour getting rid of grandad and aiming to get back in to the EU, but the more I think about it who knows, the potential unknown is a bit bonkers.
Weirdly, a year ago I sat next to grandad on the train from Paddington to Bristol, me or him weren't sat on the floor, I'd just literally sat on the last seat availableand found myself next to him, he read a magazine on trains while a couple of people at least came up for selfies, I couldn't really bring my self to say anything, a year on I would have asked what the F he was playing at (I know..but FFS...)
One of the reasons I’ve come round to the view that we can’t dismiss the views of brexit voters is the fact that many remainers barely disguise their condescension and ignorance of the people they are so quick to call gammons or idiots.
Quite right, this is also the view I have come to so in the event of a second referendum I will change my vote to leave, the result needs to be respected.
Here's me expecting an apology. But more mealy mouthed words.
I wasn't convinced that I believed you! Ffs
But Meft, thats just another silly protest vote? based on getting one up on someone else? Is that it?
All views are tolerated. It’s just that some people disagree with other people. Do you want to stifle that? Why do you hate democracy?
Yet you repeat the same arguments again and again and again and again and again ...., you never have anything new to say, it is just the same old bleating, the flaws in which have been pointed out. But do you recognise those arguments, no of course not, you just go back to saying the same thing again and again, ironically that is what you accuse the Brexiters of.
But Meft, thats just another silly protest vote? based on getting one up on someone else? Is that it?
Not at all, we were told the result was to be respected and there wouldn't be another referendum, I will use my vote to help achieve that.
EDIT:
Paddy Ashdown put it rather well
https://www.youtube.com/embed/-Bv_1z2lFlw
Bugger: Link here
We were told a lot of things. Most of them lies. Why choose to accept that bit?
the flaws in which have been pointed out
Which flaws are you referring to?
in the event of a second referendum I will change my vote to leave, the result needs to be respected.
I've heard a few people say that… fair enough… but I've also heard people who voted Leave saying they'd refuse to vote at all if there was another referendum… so you'll be needed.
To be frank, I don't think it'll come to another public vote anyway… the politicians will do (are doing) all they can to avoid that. How would each of them campaign? It would be a nightmare for so many of them…
I agree dazh and that is why you should stop doing it. Too.
Pretty sure I’ve not abused anyone on here but if you want to go and find examples go for it and I’ll defend them or apologise if I’m wrong.
Please don’t confuse disagreement with abuse.
One of the reasons I’ve come round to the view that we can’t dismiss the views of brexit voters is the fact that many remainers barely disguise their condescension and ignorance of the people they are so quick to call gammons or idiots.
I think you're guilty of some kind of noble working class savage bias/fallacy.
You've come round to the view of a bunch of brexies because they get derided, yet you can't come round to the view of remainers (and why they might be livid) despite the accusations of being traitors, the racism and the killing of MPs?
You need to sort your priorities out.
Interesting it’s the attitude of the Brexies, starting with their “traitors”, “saboteurs” and “enemies of the people”, before flowing into the ability to disagree with everything (including the deal to actually Brexit that their PM had put together) that makes me think the Brexies need kicking out of this country so that normal folk can live in piece here.
I was willing to compromise at one point - marginal loss, roughly half and half, leave, drop the farm subsidies etc, but keep freedom of movement and I could see a deal. But they blew it.
Bunch of elitist scum the lot of them - yes I mean Farage, JRM, IDS, Ratcliffe, Dyson, etc.
+1 IGM, looks like we had the same thought at the same time!
Appeasing the right working class worked out so well for Australia didn't it, with those race riots, offshore detention centres etc. Abbot and Turnball totally managed to appease the Bogans and stopped one their them from killing 49 people in New Zealand didn't they!
Appeasement makes them worse.
Anyway, Brexit has been live and running for 3 long years in June - it really does look like a failed experiment. They can’t sort out what they want, and if they could they can’t agree it. The project doesn’t work, time to bin Brexit. All agreed?
Which flaws are you referring to?
I am told the search function is very good now, I am sure you will be able to find them with it.
Pretty sure I’ve not abused anyone on here but if you want to go and find examples go for it and I’ll defend them or apologise if I’m wrong.
Remember when you tell us all its over and we should just get on with it. That leave is a certainty but you keep trying to shut down talk of remain....
So again. If anyone can tell me why this is a good idea apart from 'the will of the people' I'm all ears.
No more Ukip MEPs
despite the accusations of being traitors, the racism and the killing of MPs?
If you’re suggesting I agree or have any sympathy with these you couldn’t be more wrong, or more offensive. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt though.
Yeh I don't see why the brexies can't answer a simple question.
And no. No I won't get over it. I've stated why more than once in this thread how brexit will damage me and my family.
I'm yet to hear what I can look forward to.
Did farage ever end up with German citizenship?
As someone was saying the other day, the UK was seen as cool, modern, progressive and generally a positive place /influence on culture,but it's lost all that.
Now, from where I am in Germany at least, it is seen as an introverted, insular place with ideas of grandeur that they can only aspire to. Maybe those ideas were always there, but now they've been exposed and, if brexit goes ahead, it will have lost its place in the world stage. Politically, financially and culturally.
ctk
Member
No more Ukip MEPs
I've heard used car salesman and cabinet ministers be more convincing.
It the EU is really run by unelected burocrats what difference does it make who our mep's are.
That's another one mike - well done brexie
No more ukip MEPs
No more unelected bureaucrats.
igm, nice to see you back.
Mefty, seriously, you would vote to harm the country because 'you lot have been mean'?
One reasonable benefit of Brexit. Just one. Quite a few posts have asked for this now. The clarion call remains ( see what i did there? ) unanswered.
No more unelected bureaucrats? What about the biggest increase in civil servants since the last world war!?
Aka a jobs first brexit well done Del!
So 3 reasons so far, crack on
Mefty, seriously, you would vote to harm the country because ‘you lot have been mean’?
If you put something in quotes it is best practice to actually include words that the person you purport to quote has actually used.
Oh. I see. Well done. :Roll:
Both of you. Sorry mefty. I did paraphrase. We there another interpretation?
I voted remain you * prick, there are no benifits that I can see but we lost get the * over it !!!!
My comment obviously touched a nerve. 😉
So we agree there are no benefits to brexit.
It's nice to find some common ground.
I am told the search function is very good now, I am sure you will be able to find them with it.
You will need to use it then as nobody else here seems to see where the flaws are that you are referring to - or might be a case of just you seeing them as flaws?
Point us to them and we can discuss.
I see the ‘Reluctant Brexiteer’ trope is persisting as the last throw of the dice of the Leavers on here.
For what feels like about the millionth time:
What are the benefits of Brexit?
Or are we going off on another line of ‘just because people voted for a whole host of (incidentally ALL either bad or wrong) motivations then we must commit economic suicide or self harm’?
Only a very very few Leavers wanted Brexit for achievable and logical goals. Unfortunately they were the exploiters set to make a quick buck and their motivations were entirely selfish.
The remainder voted Leave for a variety of reasons either conscious or subconscious. But all either misguided or wrong. Here are the themes.
Petty jealousy
Racism
Xenophobia
Nationalism
Nostalgia for an imagined past
Gullibility
Fear of change
In varying degrees. Hardly any are ‘honorable’ a few are perhaps understandable, but they are the ones that (irony of ironies) will be made much worse by Brexit.
Respect that?
Errrrrm...... No.
The other key thing is that in the two sets ‘Brexit of any kind’ and ‘things that are good for the country’, there is absolutely no overlap. Not one bit.
Any Brexit is bad. It needs to be stopped.
And before daz and the other apologists wade in with ‘you lot celebrating Leave voters losing their jobs demonstrates why they voted Leave in the first place’ crap for the umpteenth time......
Firstly, their minds were already made up due to the combination of the above motivations.
Secondly, I am not celebrating job losses as a result of Brexit. Any job losses must mean that there are less jobs to go around full stop. That is not good. Also, if someone burnt my house down, I wouldn’t celebrate in court when they got sent to prison. I’ve still had my ****ing house burnt down. But I wouldn’t have any sympathy either.
"Siri, show me an example of a metaphor"
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1106809952872603648
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Danny H </span>If some idiots voted to burn down your house you'd have to respect their decision though.
Ah yes, the former UKIP leader, long time MEP and leader of his own political party wants to stick it to the "political class".
Ah yes, the former UKIP leader, long time MEP and leader of his own political party wants to stick it to the “political class”.
Every time I see that arsehole it just reminds me of the time I rode through a big pile of dog shit in the local woods.
....Just an aside, but why does all leave graphical design, the 'LEAVE MEANS LEAVE' nonsense Farage is stood in front of above, and the Global whatever the ERG display,
Why does it all look like it was designed in 1976? It looks like it's all being designed by the person who did all the graphical work for the first series of Tomorrows World?
Why does it all look like it was designed in 1976?
The thrusting young bucks sitting in front of said logos should give you a clue.
🙂
So farage is charging people to march in the rain, but not doing it himself...
There's a metaphor for believing brexit's promises right there
Anyway if the senseless farce of Brexit is getting you down, this will cheer you up
350 people on that march mind, surely they've all got to be of the robust pensioner ilk? who else is going to spend hard earned holiday entitlement, or has the time to walk from Sunderland to London?
I hope Wetherspoons are offering a free pub lunch along the way for their efforts
So, anyone going on the People’s Vote march next Saturday?
Every time I see that arsehole it just reminds me of the time I rode through a big pile of dog shit in the local woods.
Ah, now you mention it😏
https://www.peoples-vote.uk/march
I was trying to engineer being in London on Friday night/Sat but that fell through, would be nice for some regional ones but I can see the point of getting everyone to London and having the headline number up there. What I really hope is there is still something to vote on by then and people do not lose their nerve over May's deal.