a further clarification referendum - that is what it would be - it would be asking the question that after the negotiation this is what leave looks like
Just imagine if May gets her deal through we have at least two more years of this discussion.
Do you think we can make 100,000 posts and will the stw website crash?
It's a shame someone can't knock up a Referendum "voters Family Tree" so we can see which groups have what in common with which other groups.
I'm increasingly in the belief that May will bludgeon her deal through.
ONce its signed what input will Parliment have on the shape of the future realtionship? My concern is that once the WA is signed, the tories will despose of May and put up a hard right loon to set us on a hard brexit path, without parliment having as much leverage as it does now to soften things.
Guess what Norway has.
I thought fjords
Stress guy across said
Roald Dahl
I was thinking that Mays deal May squeak through next week, but in reality its opposed equally by Tory remainers and the ERG in roughly similar numbers. More moderates than ERG, probably. The ERG are backtracking as they fear losing their precious Brexit completely, but the Tory moderates won't budge as they know its a shit deal. I can't see even a handful of Labour MPs voting for it
And the DUP will simply never vote for any deal with the backstop in. And we know that when those mad creationist 'no surrender' bastards say they will never vote for something, they mean it!
I wonder what odds I'd get with the bookies for her tabling it for a 4th time and John Bercow telling her no?
I thought fjords
It can have more than one thing.
Funnily enough, one thing it doesn't have is a Customs Union.
Yep Norway has FOM which is a good thing.
I'm assuming when Labour say they will end FOM they mean they will end FOM as we now have it and it will be replaced with something very similar.
It's not ****ing unicorns though is it?
ONce its signed what input will Parliment have on the shape of the future realtionship?
About as much as they have so far, the direction is controlled by the government. The PM leads this and as shown it's damm hard to break that without booting her - they also can't replace her for a while unless she quits
The World at One was pretty depressing on Radio 4 just now. Interviewing people in Northern and Southern Ireland. Theres zero optimism for the future. Brexit will hit them harder than anywhere else economically, but a lot of people are genuinely concerned (quite legitimately) about a return to the troubles.
And the only people that Theresa May is listening to is the DUP who are a minority of a minority, and quite frankly a bunch of backward gazing bigots
Meanwhile, back in Westminster Michael Gove further fans the flames by saying that 'Direct Rule' will be imposed again after Brexit. And Karen Bradley sees if she can get through the day without saying something breathtakingly offensive
The uncaring and cavalier ignorance on display with regard to the whole issue of Ireland is really worrying. I can really se it ending very very badly
I’m assuming when Labour say they will end FOM they mean they will end FOM as we now have it and it will be replaced with something very similar.
It’s not **** unicorns though is it?
What does something very similar to FOM look like?
Because the point is that, unless it's so similar it's indistinguishable, it is ****ing unicorns.
Stress guy across said
Roald Dahl
Wrong he was Welsh, born in Cardiff. 🏴🏴🏴
That'll be the same as 'a' customs union, that isn't 'the' customs union
Its whatever you want it to be. It won' survive contact with the real world, obviously... but its a nice unicorny idea that apparently some people are more than happy to swallow
I was thinking that Mays deal May squeak through next week
Well, there are quite a few hardliners in the Tory party, so even with DUP they would need nearly all the ERG and sundry other nutters to vote for it. That may be difficult since many of them prefer no-deal and they still may get that if they vote against the deal.
The question is, how many Labour will vote for it?
Yes so similar its identical! An emergency brake or quotas or just FOM and deal with the consequences.
Whats wrong with FOM?
I’m assuming when Labour say they will end FOM they mean they will end FOM as we now have it and it will be replaced with something very similar
Well binners beat me to it, but since labour have said they want "a" customs union, if they wanted to retain FoM I would have thought they would say they want "a" FoM. But they haven't. So perhaps they don't.
The question is, how many Labour will vote for it?
I think enough that it will pass
Whats wrong with FOM?
Nothing at all but Labour have promised to end it. That is what makes all their claims unicorns.
a further clarification referendum – that is what it would be – it would be asking the question that after the negotiation this is what leave looks like
How about a sudo command by someone who knows what they're doing?
Whats wrong with FOM?
The racists sorry, leavers don't like brown* people
* actual evidence, from an actual overhead conversation post referendum vote of two old dears in a Co-Op fantasising that at least we can stop the (...said under breath) brown people coming here now.
But they'll all see the light come 2nd ref?
That is what makes all their claims unicorns.
No, it doesn't. They want a negotiated arrangement regarding customs which will require a trade-off with FoM.
if they wanted to retain FoM I would have thought they would say they want “a” FoM. But they haven’t. So perhaps they don’t.
They want to allow immigration, but not un-restricted. The nature of those restrictions, along with the restrictions on trade provided by 'a' customs union, are to be the subject of negotiations.
The racists sorry, leavers don’t like brown* people
* actual evidence, from an actual overhead conversation post referendum vote of two old dears in a Co-Op fantasising that at least we can stop the (…said under breath) brown people coming here now.
imagine their horror when we start letting more 'brown' people in to secure all those trade deals...
No, but some of them will be dead now. And there will be 2 million 18 to 21 year olds who will now be able to vote who couldn't in 2016.
And then of course, you have the morons living abroad who let their voter registration expire and weren't really paying attention because, I mean, in what ****ing universe would the UK vote to leave the EU. That would be monumentally insane.
If I'm anything to go by people will be paying a lot more attention to the 2nd referendum than the first.
mariner
Member
Just imagine if May gets her deal through we have at least two more years of this discussion.
Do you think we can make 100,000 posts and will the stw website crash?
Get real, we've got a decade of trade talks to sort out
Jon Snow was on form yesterday. I think he's a tad vexed.
I think freedom of movement comes with the single market, not customs union. labour want "a" customs union, not single market. (why would you want to be in the single market, covering services...after all, services only account for 80% of our exports)
No, it doesn’t. They want a negotiated arrangement regarding customs which will require a trade-off with FoM.
*sigh* How many times? Repeat after me.... the four freedoms of the EU are indivisible
Noticed any signs over the last few years that the EU are prepared to compromise that to allow one country to cherry-pick which bits they fancy?
If so then you've been watching some very different negotiations to me.
Perhaps they will do though if a pensioner with a beard asks them nicely and brings them some courgettes?
The nature of those restrictions, along with the restrictions on trade provided by ‘a’ customs union, are to be the subject of negotiations.
You'd think this simple point would be obvious wouldn't you? Trouble is it doesn't support the 'corbyn is a secret ERG supporting hard brexit nutter' tin foil hat theory so good luck trying to get anyone to agree.
the four freedoms of the EU are indivisible
And how many times does it need to be pointed out that the indivisible four freedoms apply only to the single market and not the customs union? The customs union is not equal to the single market.
at least we can stop the (…said under breath) brown people coming here now.
They haven't seen the post referendum non-EU immigration figures then?
Aaaah yes... the single market that jezza intends to maintain tariff-free access too with out being a member of?
That not sound even more unicorny than his other red unicorns to you?
How many times? Repeat after me…. the four freedoms of the EU are indivisible
And again - how many times? - that refers to full customs union and full freedom of movement. The deal that Corbyn would have to go for would be some kind of qualified movement e.g. Australian points system or something, in return for a customs agreement regarding say goods and not services.
There are lots of examples of schemes allowing people to work in other countries that aren't full freedom of movement. That is what I would expect given what I've read. Does that make sense now?
Give up on them Binners. They don't see that there is no difference between their cake and eat nonsense, and that spouted by May, DD, Boris & Fox (the dream team) before they were forced to accept that "all the benefits of the Single Market & Customs Union" are unavailable if you are outside both. Politicans have lied and claimed that isn't the case… and some many people still believe that… they still deny the obvious…
Politicans have lied and claimed that isn’t the case… and some many people still believe that… they still deny the obvious…
No, you are really really not understanding what I am trying to say. I understand the indivisible four freedoms. Read my earlier post carefully.
A lot of people also don't understand that the 4 freedoms, including freedom of movement, are essential for the single market to function as a single market and for us to get the benefits of that. FoM is not something that has been arbitrarily imposed, it is one of the foundations that makes the single market work and removing it would create barriers to trade that would hit the effectiveness and thus the benefits of the single market.
How about a sudo command by someone who knows what they’re doing?
sudo rm -rf /erg /dup
sudo move /gammon /costadelsol
Please forgive my ignorance, I don't claim to be knowledgeable on these things, i'm just trying to get a better understanding on the potential outcomes of Brexit.
My understanding of people not wanting FOM was due to lots of African refugees that had crossed numerous European countries to camp in Calais trying to get into Britain, rather than every country taking a quota. I tend to keep out of the news/media so i'm not sure how often this still occurs?
sudo remove /creme /cat
So there are no countries that enjoy tariff free access to the single market without being members?
DUp in meetings with Cox and Hammond,
A.K.A how much more to we have to pay you so you'll reinterpret Cox's advice to amke the backstop palatable
shake that magic money tree....
I expect there are countries that enjoy zero tariff on some goods... point is, it's negotiable. Labour's policy says 'the benefits of single market', which is a very weaselly phrase that could mean lots of things. This is what I am trying to illustrate. This is politics after all.
DUp in meetings with Cox and Hammond,
There is certainly a correlation between the number of floating tories who will vote for May's deal and the likelihood of a defeat. They can back her and know it's not going through still. Last vote will be tight but I can see some keeping their resolve.
We have a way out now so there is time to do something
There's been plenty of talk on here by the crypto fascists that "thick" people/gammons who don't understand the issues shouldn't be allowed to vote.The more I read this thread the utter ignorance of some of the most prolific posters becomes more apparent.
So there are no countries that enjoy tariff free access to the single market without being members?
The Single Market isn't about tariffs… that's the Customs Union… and, no, there is no country outside the customs union that has tariff free access for all goods and services. Lots of trade deals (and unilateral concessions) remove many tariffs for goods. But the Single Market is about removing other barriers to trading and working across national barriers.
I wonder if this thread will be going when we rejoin?
My understanding of people not wanting FOM was due to lots of African refugees that had crossed numerous European countries to camp in Calais trying to get into Britain, rather than every country taking a quota. I tend to keep out of the news/media so i’m not sure how often this still occurs?
Well, that's nothing to do with FoM. FoM is freedom of movement of workers, and to qualify for said free movement you have to be an EU citizen (or from a country with a treaty to provide equivalent rights).
Those African refugees have no rights to come to this country under FoM.
So anyone who opposes FoM for that reason is misguided.
and to qualify for said free movement you have to be an EU citizen (or from a country with a treaty to provide equivalent rights).
It's freedom of movement of *labour*. So you need to be in a job as well.
Do you think we can make 100,000 posts and will the stw website crash?
We're coming up fast on 65536 posts, that's where it's going to have problems.
There’s been plenty of talk on here by the crypto fascists that “thick” people/gammons who don’t understand the issues shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
Paraphrasing? Plenty of people are quite rightly commenting that expecting people to understand complex issues and make a decision is a bad idea.
On top of that the complete misunderstanding of some of the basic concepts when people are asked about brexit is startling and reinforces how much of a bad idea the referendum was.
The "we voted to leave why have we not left" ones baffle me somedays can't be bothered to understand any of the detail just want to complain.
Then you have actual mp's who are paid to make these decisions who have less than a basic grasp on the facts, followed by making either deliberately false statements or getting it massively wrong despite having budget for researchers and more time than most to read up.
I'll accept there are some people ranting but that unfortunately is the human race.
So mike how should we make our decisions if we can't trust the people or our MPs?
Referendums in Switzerland seem to work but that seems lost on those angry at the Brexit result.And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome,not because they want more direct democracy.And I'm tired of MPs banging on about "none of my constituents voted to make themselves poorer",which is precisely what happened when we voted to join the Common Market-food prices went up year on year to subsidise inefficient farming practices.There was then no referendum on the closer ties with Europe through the various Treaties which the UK signed up to but which other countries held, although we had the regular wranglings with the EU,rebate,not joining Schengen or the Euro etc.The old folk/gammons who can remember this have felt disenfranchised,they voted to join a Common Market,that was it.Once the Euro-establishment was in place it did what all establishments do ,protect and strengthen itself and stifle opposition.Labour/Blair then messed up with the EU expansion accession countries by not putting in the restrictions on migration that Germany and most of the rest of Europe did.No one seems to be doing any real analysyis of why we are where we are and it has as you say just degenerated into ranting.
I thought the "crypto facists" were telling us that none of us were allowed to vote, because we voted to stop voting in 2016, or something like that.
I suppose being called a 'crypto-fascist' makes a change from a 'traitor'...
Referendums in Switzerland seem to work but that seems lost on those angry at the Brexit result
Swiss referendums are often "overturning", or revising, the results of other, recent referendums. To say we can only obey an (old) referendum, without reference to what has since happened, and what people now want, is something freshly made up (or rather dug up from the 1930s) by people who, understandably, fear that the "will of the people" might be moving.
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome,not because they want more direct democracy.
Yep hands up I want a second ref and I want to remain in the EU. But crucially and critically in this case I want this to be a referendum on the deal chosen and for that to be put to the people. At this point I challenge any brexit supporter to find me where this deal comes close to matching anything that was promised in the campaign.
Secondly on referendums we have already learned a lot of things - track the cash, watch the cash, register the cash.
Look at ads and who can authorise them, look at the accountability of people and what they are doing.
Hold leaders and speakers to account.
We let the public down with the quality of the debate and the way in which we allowed people to mislead.
nick1962
Member
So mike how should we make our decisions if we can’t trust the people or our MPs?
Referendums in Switzerland seem to work
Well first of all as Ivan Rogers pointed out Switzerland are in a permanent state of negotiation with the EU , they voted to end FOM, but then got kicked out of ERASMUS and them had to go back and ask to join again or it threatened their lucrative higher education & damaged their scientific research.
when we voted to join the Common Market-food prices went up year on year to subsidise inefficient farming practices
This is simply bollox, food prices have never been cheaper, adjusted for inflation. Ironically the Brexit vote has caused then to rise!
although we had the regular wranglings with the EU,rebate,not joining Schengen or the Euro etc
All of which the EU ceded in our favour!
The old folk/gammons who can remember this have felt disenfranchised,they voted to join a Common Market,that was it
The EU has always been clear that it wanted to integrate & harmonise, pooling sovereignty is the trade off for increased benefits in trade, culture, research, security etc etc
it.Once the Euro-establishment was in place it did what all establishments do ,protect and strengthen itself and stifle opposition.
The European parliament is more diverse than our own, they even allow grandstanding charlatans like farage who do not work, just tell lies for their gullible followers back home.
No one seems to be doing any real analysyis of why we are where we are and it has as you say just degenerated into ranting.
It's been pointed out endless times that the benefits of EU membership are not shared by all, the obvious point being that it's the fault of successive UK governments, not the EUs
As for deranged ranting, well you've done a good job of that!
I think the last time I heard "crypto-fascist" was Lister's younger self in Red Dwarf.
Referendums in Switzerland seem to work but that seems lost on those angry at the Brexit result.
1) Referendums in Switzerland have a host of criteria which have to be met, none of which were applied here.
2) They "seem" to work, yes. Have a read of this: https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/take-it-from-the-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome,not because they want more direct democracy.
They don't want a different outcome, they want an accurate one rather than working off three year old data.
Turning that about, those opposed to a third referendum are those who know they'd lose and thus "the will of the people" is the final lie they have left.
Personally, I don't really want another vote (though it may be inevitable) and I don't want more direct democracy. I want our representative democracy to do its job, it's not the electorate's place to mandate individual policies in the UK, never has been. If it was then we could disband parliament as it no longer would serve a purpose.
I suppose being called a ‘crypto-fascist’ makes a change from a ‘traitor’…
As opposed to nazi sympathiser, appeaser or just a plain f****** idiot? FWIW I've seen very little abuse on here (even back in the old days) from the brexit side, but plenty recently from the remain brexit deniers. One of the reasons I've come round to the view that we can't dismiss the views of brexit voters is the fact that many remainers barely disguise their condescension and ignorance of the people they are so quick to call gammons or idiots.
It's revealed a very disturbing side to people who I though I agreed with (not on just on here I might add), and I have as much dislike for this as I do the naked racism and ignorance which many brexiters showed in the wake of the vote. They deserve each other to be honest, and in the middle there are a whole bunch of people who are only interested in the issue being resolved through some form of sensible compromise. We'll get nowhere by hurling abuse, and this will only get worse if we carry on as we are. How far do we have to descend before people on both sides come to their senses?
We’ll get nowhere by hurling abuse, and this will only get worse if we carry on as we are. How far do we have to descend before people on both sides come to their senses?
After the votes on Wed night I saw tory brexiters, the likes of farage etc. come on and balme everyone, rant about the will of the people, slag off people - the speech given by the brexit sec was attack after attack, yelling mandates and 17 million people about, saying betrayal etc.
The SNP spokesperson interviewed talked about what brexit would mean to his constituents, what he was trying to achieve and how he wanted to work with the government to get to an outcome that was the least worst possible.
One side here has really lost the plot.
FWIW I’ve seen very little abuse on here (even back in the old days) from the brexit side, but plenty recently from the remain brexit deniers.
and right one cue.... everyone not agreeing with you is in denial.
This is simply bollox, food prices have never been cheaper, adjusted for inflation. Ironically the Brexit vote has caused then to rise!
Not bollox.Food prices in the UK went up after we joined the Common Market as a direct result of joining the Common Market and tariffs were imposed on food from non EU countries.
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome,not because they want more direct democracy.
They don’t want a different outcome, they want an accurate one rather than working off three year old data.
At least Mike was honest about it, you persit in denying a most obvious fact 😂
@taxi25 can't manage to quote (bet it's fixed in edit) and can't read properly what was written....
The vote in 2016 does not answer the question currently being asked. It is not an accurate data set for answering the question which is what kind of brexit do you ****ing want.
Not bollox.Food prices in the UK went up after we joined the Common Market as a direct result of joining the Common Market and tariffs were imposed on food from non EU countries.
I bet prices will come down once we accept a free trade shafting from the US or sign a nice deal with Nevis & St Kitts or other big players in world trade
The vote in 2016 does not answer the question currently being asked. It is not an accurate data set for answering the question which is what kind of brexit do you **** want.
Loving your passive aggression 👍
But its you thats hard of understanding. People didn't vote for a deal, or no deal, to advise the government or anything else. They were asked a question, "do you want to leave the EU yes or no" that was it. The reasons why leavers voted the way they did is perhaps only known to themselves but nothing for them has changed !!
A second referendum is being promoted by those, not perhaps unreasonably hoping to overturn the result. If you think it's for any other reason the irony of calling leavers stupid is breathtaking.
"Do you still want to Leave, now you have seen what your politicans have lined up for you", is a perfectly valid question.
I think the answer will be, narrowly, yes, let's Leave, using the Withdrawl Agreement the PM has arrived at. But people should still be asked. And we can then give our answer based on where we are now, not what was promised (suggested, if you like) back in 2016.
In addition, I suspect, after we have left, a further referendum will be required to settle what we are transitioning too… as I don't expect any party/government will be able to settle that by themselves… and the public have never voted on that either.
They were asked a question, “do you want to leave the EU yes or no” that was it.
Yeahbut.. Leaving the EU means you have to replace that relationship with something. In case you have noticed what's happened over the past few months: You can't just 'leave the EU', you have to negotiate what that relationship is going to be afterwards. This is why the referendum question was ludicrous.
Loving your passive aggression 👍
Passive, it's complete frustration with the impasse and inability of people to spot why.
But its you thats hard of understanding. People didn’t vote for a deal, or no deal, to advise the government or anything else. They were asked a question, “do you want to leave the EU yes or no” that was it. The reasons why leavers voted the way they did is perhaps only known to themselves but nothing for them has changed !!
Correct and it was advisory for a really good reason, we stood by the result and honoured it really badly. We have gone through the process, a selection of fine brexiters have gone to Europe dressed as St George to slay dragons and each has come back as nothing more than a naughty schoolboy who just got caught trying to forge his parents signature or copying homework. they still protest how it's all somebody elses fault they failed to deliver on any of the promises that were made.
A second referendum is being promoted by those, not perhaps unreasonably hoping to overturn the result. If you think it’s for any other reason the irony of calling leavers stupid is breathtaking.
It will also give validation to the simple fact that nobody really supports what is being offered to them.
Anyone from the leave side who wants to avoid checking they still have people on side knows they have lost public opinion, they have lost the battle and are close to losing the war. We are back to jingoistic and pathetic lines about subjugation as if the UK will resemble Germany post world wars being humiliated and punished for daring to step out of line.
Simply put if you find 2 brexiters agreeing with each other on something chances are they don't understand the other one.
Remember the mantra,
It's about a democratic decision
as May tries to bully parliament into accepting a deal she consulted none of them on
It's about a democratic decision
as May wanted to avoid involving parliement
It's about a democratic decision
as May shut down options and refused to consult
It's about a democratic decision
as they won't consider people might want a say in the process
Not bollox.Food prices in the UK went up after we joined the Common Market as a direct result of joining the Common Market and tariffs were imposed on food from non EU countries.
I'm sure 40 years ago is still a burning issue in your mind, but now we have 0 tariff deals with most of the developing world, most of which are seasonal to protect EU (including UK)farming industry, it's particularly effective as the tariffs are reduced in southern hemisphere growing season when we can't
You want high food prices, spend a while at WTO tariff levels
The reasons why leavers voted the way they did is perhaps only known to themselves but nothing for them has changed !!
How do you know?
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome
That's partly true, but a 2nd ref is the only way to legitimise a sensible outcome. And it's partly because we now have something to vote on. A 2nd ref needs to be on May's deal i.e. a different vote.
This started with a referendum, so we have to proceed with referenda don't we? May keeps saying 'the people want this, that and the other' do we? How do you know? None of that was on the ballot. So if she wants to act in our name she has to ask us what we want again.
And I try very hard not to insult leave voters, I save that for the press, politicians & pundits that sold it.
But it's really really **** hard sometimes
From the euro elections thread
we could learn a lot from Bashar al-Assad and Putin I don’t see their states being bent over and raped by the EU like we do.
Look at Twitter, Facebook, wherever, ^^^ that's not even coming close to what's out there in terms of stupidity.
We’ll get nowhere by hurling abuse
I agree dazh and that is why you should stop doing it. Too.
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome
Even if that is the case: If your point of view is that referenda = 'Democracy' then how can you deny that, convenient though it is for remain, it would still be an exercise of the democratic will. What you can't do is drone on about the 'will of the people' & then refuse to have a referendum because you think you will lose.
What you can’t do is drone on about the ‘will of the people’ & then refuse to have a referendum because you think you will lose.
TBH, I think they will jsut carry on doing that, it's way better than admitting the other truth
Referendum every 3 years then?
They were asked a question, “do you want to leave the EU yes or no” that was it.
Correct. At that time we didn't know what form "leaving the EU" would take. Different things were promised to different audiences by different people because (generously) they didn't really know either. And by extension, people then voted for different reasons with different expectations. This is well understood.
Three years on, we now know what brexit looks like. It's an actual document which exists and you can go read and everything. Is it not right and proper to see if this meets with the approval of those who "knew what they were voting for" before going ahead with this?
It's not "having the same vote again", it's a different question. And even if it wasn't, as I said before, we're working with three year old data (and look at what's happening in Parliament currently, we have precedence for asking the same question over and over it seems).
Leave has been crowing about their precious "democracy" for the last three years; this is the very definition of democracy and they're all now shouting against it. I wonder why.
I think a lot of breziters would think that May has not negotiated a good deal and that a second ref with remain or May's deal is a false choice.
Why not May's deal vs no deal?
I think a lot of breziters would think that May has not negotiated a good deal and that a second ref with remain or May’s deal is a false choice.
Why not May’s deal vs no deal?
1) No deal is a ****ing suicidal choice that has been roundly defeated in parliament.
2) No deal is ****ing stupid
But really you asked the government to negotiate you something and you gave them no parameters, no measures, no guidance, they didn't ask for you input and now you want to complain??
Finally this isn't a choice for the 17.8m this is one for the entire population.
Why not May’s deal vs no deal?
Or better still: Why not May’s deal vs no deal vs remain?
Or less cheekily. Why not a number of options from remain to no deal with various degrees of hard to soft brexit in between. At least that would give you an idea of 'whsat the people want'
Good news at last.
Dr Fox has signed a trade deal with (drum roll) Fiji.
Without googling it wtf does Fiji produce that we want?
No possible link 'The Pacific islands deal also comes days after the EU added Fiji to a tax haven blacklist.'