[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

will require individual national identities to be replaced by an 'EU' identity, then and only then will people be fully integrated in the 'EU state'

I don't take that as a given, personally I can hold both thoughts in my head at the same time.

Though if obliged to choose between locked in the UK with Faragist Brits, or rubbing along with my French, German, Italian & Irish mates, I'd chose the latter. The personal bonds are way stronger than any nationality based one.

I do think this issue decided a lot of leave voters though, hang on a leaver forum and you will soon see a lot of "I am British not European", as if they are exclusive.

On the "EU Army", it wouldn't necessarily represent a big scaling up of footprint; there's no appetite (or money) for that. You'd find that it would mean the establishment of some HQ formations, and lots of exercises together for them. The force elements would be the same units declared to NATO and their own sovereign states, the same physical boss/bits of kit.
If you were a cynic, you might think that the UK's impending departure would allow the dominance of an EU force by the continent's other big military power, hence M Macron pushing it! Buys him a bit more clout on that Franco-German axis....

Oh - is France militarily stronger than Germany so pulls some rank (if you excuse the analogy)?

The underlying message seems to be that the EU will be changing (regardless of Brexit), theres views and visions of how it should be in the future which will not sit well with some member states, especially if they get pushed out of the main 15 'inner circle', that would hurt some national pride, so that wouldn't be a smooth transition. It will be interesting to see if other leaders start coming out with the same vision as Macron.

Yes, France is stronger, the German military was more like a self defence force and were restricted on the type of operations they can be involved in abroad. Although the second largest in Europe after France, their combat/operational experience is quite limited.

will require individual national identities to be replaced by an 'EU' identity, then and only then will people be fully integrated in the 'EU state'

Would not expect British people to have a problem with this. After all we are comfortable with being both say Scottish and British. Well.. unless you're English, when the two terms are basically synonymous. Guess that's why Scotland voted remain...

The irony of the French putting forward military co-operation is delicious.

Good to see Mols is still posting from cloud cuckoo land.

mefty - Member
The irony of the French putting forward military co-operation is delicious

Nope. You lost me. My day to be dim it seems.

Given the EU has its origins in tying France and German together to make war between them nigh in impossible, starting to tie the militaries together seems a natural step.

The French after years of grumbling left the military command structure of NATO in 1966, they didn't like the fact that two countries formed an axis of power (US and UK.) De Gaulle expelled all non French NATO troops from France - the US Secretary of State asked whether that included "the bodies of American soldiers in France's cemeteries?".

They rejoined under Sarkozy, some might suggest a parallel exists.

Fair point.

Though the point about the function of the EU is probably equally relevant.

The French after years of grumbling left the military command structure of NATO in 1966, they didn't like the fact that two countries formed an axis of power (US and UK.) De Gaulle expelled all non French NATO troops from France - the US Secretary of State asked whether that included "the bodies of American soldiers in France's cemeteries?".

De Gaulle was a colossal tit and did all he could to hamper US/UK ops during WW2 despite the fall of France...and then had the cheek to insist French troops were the first to march in Paris despite it being liberated by the UK/US/Aus/NZ/Can etc...he was the epitome of arrogance.

(thread drift but he really was a bellend)

Deviant - never met the man so I won’t comment.

De Gaulle was a colossal tit and did all he could to hamper US/UK ops during WW2 despite the fall of France.

it was almost like he thought they were out to "get him" !

On 21 April 1943, de Gaulle was scheduled to fly in a Wellington bomber to Scotland to inspect the Free French Navy. On take-off, the bomber's tail dropped, and the plane nearly crashed into the airfield's embankment. Only the skill of the pilot saved them. On inspection, it was found that aeroplane's separator rod had been sabotaged, using acid.[156][157] Britain's MI6 investigated the incident, but no one was ever apprehended. De Gaulle blamed the Western Allies, and later told colleagues that he no longer had confidence in them

yay american protectionism !

but May held his tiny hand and everything
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a nice glimpse into our post brexit future

as for EU army

conisdering the epic costs of the millitary and things liek the nuclear deterrant then it makes a lot of sense, especially as Americ seems to be turning inwards, if an EU army makes member states less likely to take unilateral decisions regarding war I wholeheratedly agree, the legacy of the wests military escapades in the middle eats, south east asia should be warning enough to make war less.
Of course thats something Putin definitely doesnt want, hence his support for Brexit, lepenn, wilders, the AFD etc

also think an EU wide FBI is long overdue

Klunk - Member
De Gaulle was a colossal tit and did all he could to hamper US/UK ops during WW2 despite the fall of France.
it was almost like he thought they were out to "get him" !

On 21 April 1943, de Gaulle was scheduled to fly in a Wellington bomber to Scotland to inspect the Free French Navy. On take-off, the bomber's tail dropped, and the plane nearly crashed into the airfield's embankment. Only the skill of the pilot saved them. On inspection, it was found that aeroplane's separator rod had been sabotaged, using acid.[156][157] Britain's MI6 investigated the incident, but no one was ever apprehended. De Gaulle blamed the Western Allies, and later told colleagues that he no longer had confidence in them

Surely that's proof that [i]somebody[/i] was out to get him, not necessarily the Western Allies. Seems an unnecessarily complicated sabotage too.
Agree De Gaulle was a throbber. Nice airport though. I always imagine what Harold MacMillan's thoughts must have been when De Gaulle blocked Britain joining the embryonic EU, less than 20 years after the liberation of France! Probably not printable.

Regards ID cards in France, isn't it the law to carry an official form of identification?

No it isn't.

Loving the De Gaulle comments. That you hate him on here is proof of just how much good he did for France.

facts that counter their opinions/facts would be proof

One might as well say Trump is doing good in the US as so many of his allies and their people dislike him. Its an equally absurd non sequitur.

De Gaulle was probably the only one who could have reunited France at that time.
However that doesn't excuse the fact his actions were entirely self serving and to some extent counter productive to getting the nazis out of France.
However what this has to do with the eu referendum i don't know

It was De gaulle who opted for evacuating anything of use to the UK rather than a futile last stand in France. You call it "surrender monkeys", I'll call it good strategy.

Under the occupation Gaulle gave a face and a voice to the resistance/maquis in France and represented them in London. The British/US command had little confidence in the capacities of the resistance and De Gaulle had to both fight for and earn confidence.

As the Normandy landings approached, the allies were bombing anything that moved or might move. Marshalling yards were the favourite but they weren't adverse to bombing anything that might get in the way and to hell with civilian losses/collatoral damage. De Gaulle persuaded the allies that parts of France could be liberated from within (this the allies did want to hear as it would cut allied cassualties). The resistance recieved support, fulfilled their role and the allied advance benefitted. Everyone won, the allies lost less men and France lost less lives and infrastructure.

I worked with a resistance member who was a memeber of the Royan maquis, he was very bitter because they had correctly informed the allies of the location of German targets (non in the town) but the allies laid waste to the port and most of the town while the Germans watched from afar.

Anyhow the man himself says it better than me:

Ah, nice one. A lot of the history books have missed De Gaulle being the one to evacuate anything of use back to the UK, rather than leave it behind. They only seem to cover Dunkirk, where all the equipment had to be left behind and only personnel were evacuated. Nice of the general to post the good stuff back.

Edukator - agreed to all of that, however pushing the 2ieme db across the American front to ensure they liberated Paris also slowed up the advance, it was clear that he mainly sought to ensure he was in power once liberation came.
No question the allies made a lot of mistakes, mainly due to a level of ineptitude (monty) and arrogance (patton).
This isn't too sound purely de Gaulle bashing as let's face it churchill also spent a large part of the war attempting to subvert the war effort to ensuring the re-instatement of the British empire. And Roosevelt was deluded in thinking he could control or influence stalin.

It's in French but babble/google will make it readable, Reign_Man

L'appel du général de Gaulle a très fortement mobilisé la population, de nombreux petits bateaux de pêche et de plaisance embarquèrent, plus que de raison, les candidats au départ depuis les nombreux ports de la péninsule bretonne. Le plus connu reste celui, le 26 juin 1940, des 127 hommes de l'Ile de Sein agés de 14 à 54 ans. Environ 250 personnes partirent de Camaret le 19 juin. De nombreux jeunes des écoles de la Marine rejoignirent également les ports britanniques comme les 80 élèves de l'Ecole de la Marine Marchande de Paimpol à bord du "Manou" ainsi que ceux de l'école du Havre, comme le départ de Douarnenez de 108 élèves de l'Ecole de pilotage de l'air installée à Morlaix.

Isn't this all getting a little off track from the general EU in/out future direction good/bad topic?

Yes, but it wasn't me who derailled it. Read back for slagging off of one of Europe's visionaries who was at the heart of the EU project and perhaps knew that the Brits would be nothing but trouble until having got their cake (the one they were eating too) they would spit it at the baker. 😛

considering the opt outs we've managed to blag over the years, really not worried that we'd be trapped in some kind of terrifying unaccountable EU superstate

It seems to me that inside we had a lot of influence

outside we are reliant on the benevolence of Trump !

£9bn pa, one of the biggest economies in the world, a worldwide diplomatic network, one of only 2 full-spectrum militaries = "nothing but trouble". Ta 😉

[quoteIt seems to me that inside we had a lot of influence

outside we are reliant on the benevolence of Trump !]

I'd suggest we'll be more exposed to the cold winds of the international system. As a declining western power with unfavourable demographics and a debt problem, not the best strategy I think!

It's only even about access and terms kimbers. We have never been tuned in to "the project". Most sensible people, saw the benefits of the single market and the folly of the common currency. We did have a great compromise. The fools - yes fools - lie on either side of what we had.

Sad that.

I’ll put my hand up and say I didn’t see the folly of the common currency, and in principle still don’t - but I do see now that without proper union it won’t work.

So the options in the longer term are give up the euro (hope not I’ve got stacks of it lying around 😉 ) or full financial, monetary and probably political union.

So don’t be surprised to see EU leaders talking about more union.

airtragic...spot on, he was so pro French it bordered on xenophobia toward other countries...doing his job though I suppose, all leaders should prioritise their own county first.

knew that the Brits would be nothing but trouble

Yeah, those nasty Brits continuing to fight Hitler and liberating France (again)...perhaps the British should've surrendered like France?...I think that's what really irked De Gualle, that it took a coalition of Anglo countries to do the job his army and countriy couldn't do.

Read 'between silk and cyanide'...it's a book from a coder who worked for SOE during the war and Dr Gaulle wanted and needed British help but was a complete child when it came to the military...he would insist on using a secret supposedly unbreakable French code that the author broke in one afternoon and turned out to be just a copycat version of an old British code...when this was pointed out to the Free French they arrogantly didn't believe it and continued to use a code that was easily broken thus endangering agent's lives...on top of that De Gaulle insisted on messages from his agents going directly to him and not to be read by the UK or the US...if you're relying on other countries to liberate your own then you share information relevant to that...needless to say the allies thought he was a loose cannon and intercepted his messages anyway and were easily able to decipher the 'unbreakable' French code.

Don't beat yourself up IGM - they fooled lots of people

The € cannot and doesn't not work by design. But to make it fail less of course you need full fiscal and political union. Just one drawback, the people don't want it!!

So macron is right in once respect, deluded in the other. Totally

So Trump threatening trade war at absolutely wrong time for Brexit negotiations, Davis team already desperate for a transition, this is surely a gift to Barnier.

.

Fallons threat to strike back via defense contracts, gonna just rile trump further?

will require individual national identities to be replaced by an 'EU' identity, then and only then will people be fully integrated in the 'EU state'

Monetary union is not very good at embracing diversity. Slight problem there

Really? The locals here where I am in Scotland seem to have a different mixing pot of identities to 'back home'.

Good thread here about Brexit & bombardier

https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792

teamhurtmore - Member
Monetary union is not very good at embracing diversity. Slight problem there

Ironic from a man who lives in a monetary union of 4 countries that get along happily 😉

This is just phase 1 of the dismantling of "the special relationship".

Ironic from a man who lives in a monetary union of 4 countries that get along happily

Nail .... head albeit unintentionally.

The area referred to satisfies the criteria for a common currency area with the benefits that this can bring (and the challenges). The area under question here doesn't hence the appalling consequences (with some benefits admittedly)

This is basic stuff - in fact the only logically consistent position is to be pro the union of the UK while rejecting the absurd notion of full union across Europe.

Nothing else makes sense in theory or in practice

kimbers - Member
teamhurtmore - Member

Monetary union is not very good at embracing diversity. Slight problem there

Ironic from a man who lives in a monetary union of 4 countries that get along happily

I’m putting words in THM’s mouth but I think he’d suggest that the UK has monetary, fiscal and political union albeit with some degree of freedom in the latter two.
That would generally be held to work.

It’s monetary union without the other two that’s a problem.

^^^^ Wot ee sez - except the bit about being against full European union - that might work after a short adjustment period ^^^^

Disclaimer - Remember I’m an engineer 😉

PS - not beating myself up, THM. Just humble enough to admit mistakes but far too arrogant to worry about it 😉

More than that IGM. I have posted this here many times but there are certain criteria that must be satisfied for a common currency to work. Then and only then you also need to have full monetary, fiscal and political union for this to have a chance of succeeding.

The EZ fails on both counts which is why it failed st birth.

Remember the Maastricht sticking plaster that everyone, yes everyone, ignored? They were a crass attempt to paper over the cracks in the design. The result was merely inevitable......and painful

It's difficult to appraise the UK government position, because they don't have a position. It's just wishy washy sound bites and no potatoes.

Like an expensive meal at a crap restaurant.

Then and only then you also need to have full monetary, fiscal and political union for this to have a chance of succeeding.

Indeed more and deeper union is required, and as Britain shows that needn't come at the cost of national identity

THM - indeed you posted on the criteria and I think even linked to some definitions of the criteria - but they were a bit vague and hand wavy so I decided to disregard them. I’m a bit like that.

If it wasn’t you that linked to them my apologies. I get a little cynical in my old age.

In fact did we not argue over whether cities and counties going bankrupt in the States called the dollar zone into question? Respectfully of course

Indeed more and deeper union is required, and as Britain shows that needn't come at the cost of national identity

Or maybe Yugoslavia