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What a national embarrassment this whole shambles is. What must the politicians across the continent think of it? The government is hopeless. Took them half the available negotiating time to come up with a half baked set of proposals that they can barely agree to back and that are nowhere near acceptable to the EU and then have the utter gall to say "the balls in your court now" to the EU negotiating team. Inept, delusional,sly, offensive, hypocritical, lying and dim. I have never seen anything like it in 40+years a political geek.
They are doing such damage to the UK. Damage from which we may never recover. Fracturing us as a nation so deeply and bitterly, and in the end its just a factional fight in the tory party driven by a handful of press barons.
I was rolling over between £600 - £1000 per month and putting it away in a savings account.
Median income of under-30s is about 18k, meaning 1300pcm take home if they don't bother wasting their time thinking about a pension. 500 quid on a shared rent (obviously varies by area) leaves them with the same 800 quid to save as you managed...if they spend the square root of **** all on such fripperies as food and bills. Entitled ****s the lot of them.
The hard work continued for about 12 months after I completed in order to get the house up to scratch...11 years later we sold up, we'd paid off nearly half the mortgage and seen a rise of 70k on the pile of crap..
So your comparison with now is from 04/05 how quaint. Now assume the houses you were looking at are 60k more expensive your income has shrunk and all your other costs have risen.
Not much difference, I earned less back then and the mortgage was 5x my salary...if I did the same again now (and I did, we moved in '15) the mortgage on our current place is still 5x my salary.
2 x median income = 36k = 23k tax free.
So 23k + 10k (After tax) = 33k or 2750 take home.
Excluding stupid property areas - it is possible to buy a house, my 23 year old son and his girlfriend have just done it.
More saving less moaning I think.
[quote=kelvin ]Anyway…
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlGN8wVnis
Edit - Oh, that's the edited one, without the Dad"s Army style attacking of the UK and the NHS by migrants… the original long one seems to be MIA.
Wow - that really is utter BS anyway. How on earth did we let them get away with such shit?
wilburt - Member
Nope I'm not letting any goverments of the hook, the opposite. A significant proportion of the shortage in housing is due to migration.
People are effected by that because either they cant get a house or more houses are being built unnecessarily
When did the government last do a major house building program? When was the last big social housing program? It's been an issue for a many years and successive governments have done nothing about it, without immigration (remmeber the net figure has been low a lot of that time) there would still be massive issues
The voices being foreign 'adds' to the intimadating aspect of 10+ youth/adult males standing around talking loudly, spitting and generally being ****.
When I grew up there would always be a bunch of lads hanging around spitting/drinking/smoking/intimidating others, if you want to hear foreign ones just head to Wales/Scotland/London maybe you just percieve the foreign ones more and they are hugely unrepresentative of the population.
It doesnt matter what your opinions are if there is a significant proportion of people who have a bad experience or are uncomfortable with migration levels you need to talk to them not ridicule them.
If we talk will you look at the facts and figures with an open mind?
It was 17 million people who didn't want intimidating foreign speaking gangs dominating their towns.
17 million people are intimidated by foreign-speaking gangs? That's a whole load of intimidation!
the mortgage on our current place is still 5x my salary.
Having moved to a cheaper area and hopefully moved up to a better paid position.
The person doing the same job as you did near London with the same job as you did back then wouldn't be able to afford the house you bought back then.
Houses in the south east have become less affordable. You can either blame immigrants or:
Inadequate building of social housing by successive governments.
Builders sitting on land rather than building homes.
Greenbelt policy.
Insufficent incentives to encourage demolition of old property and replacement with denser more ecological buildings.
Draconian palnning restrictions.
NIMBYism
People who know the UK better can no doubt elaborate.
The EU has become weak, slow and inefficient
Who said that yesterday ?
Liam Fox?
Michael Gove?
Angela Rayner ?
Theresa May?
John McDonnel?
Tests are banned at the STW school.
Big Mac?
Your point being?
That people who support the EU want it to change and improve?
Your point being?
It's a set up to look clever, rather than impart the information you make somebody say it to you. It would be possible if it was really a story to post the info/quote then engage in dicsussion on it rather than going look labour bad
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I'm in west London a 2 bed flat near where I live requires on a 25 year mortgage monthly payments of £2700. So, yes, quite affordable for a 23 year old as long as Mummy and Daddy put down a 50% deposit.
it is possible to buy a house, my 23 year old son and his girlfriend have just done it.
Possible but far more difficult is the point being made. If kids have to save up far harder for far longer, and the money just goes to line some baby boomer's pocket, is that fair?
Also - could your son have managed it if he'd been single?
Le Big Mac.
Yes, some people who some combination of higher than average salaries, lower than average living costs (rent!), relatively cheap local housing, or who have coupled up unusually early in life. But there's a whole lot of people who don't fit in these boxes, and who cannot see any reasonable path to property ownership.
25y ago within months of starting work I went straight out and bought a smart new 1-bed flat for about 2.5x my reasonable grad salary (would only have been 3x on a very mediocre salary that eg my girlfriend of the time started on - she was below the threshold for paying back student loans at that time). The same flat - now 25y old rather than brand new - is about 6-7x the student loan payback threshold of 22k, and (as I posted above) there are a lot of people not earning that much.
Good job they dont want kids as they need both those incomes just to stay afloat and they cannot live of just one of those salaries.it is possible to buy a house, my 23 year old son and his girlfriend have just done it..
This is just silly its blindingly obvious that is much more costly and therefore more difficult for young people to buy a house than it was for us whether us was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago or 40 years ago and the further back you go the more affordable it was
Where i the tipping point when they can no longer afford properties no idea but certainly in my lifetime. My friend bought a house despite whilst working as a school cleaner - is there anywhere in the UK where this is is still possible?
More saving less moaning I think
Your tough love [ or is it tough shit] Tebbit on your bike silliness is not a solution for anyone who can do maths.
Where i the tipping point when they can no longer afford properties no idea but certainly in my lifetime.
Then we get a little schadenfreude when the "My pension is my property investments" try and cash in - like when they have to hand to over to pay for social care...
The maths makes perfect sense really the supposed value of property is keeping a lot of new people out of it. That can't be sustained.
I do love it when a thread goes all Reggie Perrin....
"I didn't get where I am today......"
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Getting back on topic..... David Davis has once again had it pointed out to him that Theresa's day out in Florence, while all very nice for the British press, hasn't made a blind bit of difference, and Britain hasn't actually made any progress towards solutions to any of the major issues. Therefore, still no trade talks, I'm afraid
And just because you say you want a transitional period, doesn't mean you're going to get one
And time still marches on.....
Concentrate on the important stuff though....
who gets to replace Theresa!
Bald blokes fighting over a comb
No comments regards Macron's speech and his vision for the EU? Some major points that raise some serious questions,(not least how are they going to pay for all this) EU army/shared EU defence budget/EU security training/EU ID cards/ controlling immigration/central asylum centre/a more flexible CAP/ financial transactions tax etc. He wasn't holding back was he. I can't see many countries willing to pay for NATO and also the EU military force, especially as several of them are not paying the agreed NATO costs at the moment. Also, a lot of his vision seems to be inline with some of Junckers previous comments on the EU future. As the UK would probably vote against a lot of those proposals I expect that Brexit would remove the biggest obstacle to these being implemented.
Single European military force? Sensible in principle and presumably would count to NATO so that wouldn’t be an issue.
In practice might be a little more difficult but I could see it being made to work well enough.
Economies of scale should make it cheaper too.
And if say the French had some carrier capable jets they could fly them off the spare aircraft carriers we might have.
In fact most of the things you mention are already done nationally, so rebadging would cost exactly the same, or centralising and replacing might cost less.
Overall? Like it.
Shared Defense and Security? Lots of joint and sharing of information anyway, large numbers already in NATO (budgets are targets not current there Donald 😉 )
EU ID cards - again if your going to have one which most of Europe does better to centralise the logistics and info sharing
Controlling Immigration and Asylum centrally - wonderful may solve a lot of big issues
Flexible CAP and Taxes across Europe - well good stuff..
Anyway Welcome to the thread Reign Man, first visit?
So about time for trade
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-41397181
Theresa May is "bitterly disappointed" the US has opted to impose a tax on the C-Series jet made by Bombardier, one of Northern Ireland's biggest employers.
The PM said the UK would work with Bombardier to protect "vital" jobs after the US Department of Commerce proposed the 220% import tariff.
How do we see a quick trade deal with the US going?
Traitor!
Anyway, Corbyn said something.
No comments regards Macron's speech
THM mentioned it, but I think he got away with it.
How do we see a quick trade deal with the US going?
It'll be fine. The tariffs are only 220%. So our marmalade and tea exports still won't be [i]that[/i] expensive
First on this thread yes, as although I have been following it, I have not felt inclined to post as it descends into basically a playground fight. But, Macron's speech, which echoes some of the views of Juncker and other EU commissioners, deserves some debate, as if Brexit goes ahead, we will be affected and if Brexit doesn't go ahead we will be more affected. In regards the above, although most countries 'do those things already', some don't and it is not done across the EU as a whole. For example, the carrying of your ID card in some EU countries, that the police can stop you and check if they feel inclined. To role this out in a country that has no such requirement, do you not expect this to be met with some resistance? Would citizens not feel their rights are being overridden? And the economies of scale do not fit, this is not a factory that is already tooled up for manufacture, these would be centralised and set up from scratch, people/systems/buildings/infrastructure. Past experience shows that in general, the EU costs for setting up anything new is not cheap, add in the eye watering expense of military equipment and operations, the current budget is going to need to be massively increased.
The EU force would not count towards NATO, this would be a separate force answerable to the EU and deployed where the EU directed. There has already been views about harmonising equipment in an EU force, logistics would dictate that the EU force would have dedicated equipment, be trained on that dedicated equipment, have centralised stores and maintenance facilities and bases and a standard EU training regime.
Centralised immigration and asylum, yep, in theory a good idea, but the past couple of years has shown how woefully inadequate the EU is at handling this as a single entity, with several countries completely disregarding the EU directive/Laws as they see fit? Which has just been met with words and then silence or veiled threats by the EU, but no concrete action to resolve this.
I am not saying Macron's vision is a good or bad thing, as I am fairly neutral, but, the vision that the big players want for the EU, are going to cost massively, both in money and social acceptance, and I am not sure there is the appetite in some of the smaller countries for this major shift.
Or, as he has alluded to reducing the commission to 15 members (with the Franco-German alliance at the centre) would it just be a case of the others being bullied into it by the big 15? Who decides on which country will be cast out to the tier 2 of the EU? How do you tell a country, that they are now a lesser part of the EU but still have to pay into the central budget when the whole project was about each member having an equal say.
It, seems that the future vision of the EU will be a very different EU than it is today, everyone will be equal, but some will be more equal than others. Maybe a central EU with the big 15 who make all the descions, then the others pushed into a revised EEA/customs union type agreement?
How do we see a quick trade deal with the US going?
As the same ruling has been made against Cananda which has extensive free trade arrangements with the US, it wouldn't be relevant anyway.
It is very relevant if you're depending on the US to replace all the trade you're about to lose with the EU, as little Liam says
Boing wasn't even competing with Bombardier on this particular contract. Seems like they're just testing the water of Trumps new protectionist agenda
From their point of view, it couldn't possibly have gone better then?
Something a lot of other 'Merican companies will no doubt have observed.
So shall we revisit mikes question, and you can answer it for us...
How do we see a quick trade deal with the US going?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41397181 ]From the BBC website:[/url]
[i]The ruling damaged the global aerospace industry and was "frankly not what we would expect of a long-term partner to the UK", said a UK government spokesman[/i]
can you imagine the reaction from the government spokesman, not to mention our hysterical press, if a French or German company had a pulled a stunt like that?
If we're this craven to the US now, WTF will they be like post-Brexit when they've got us over a barrel?
It'll be fine. The tariffs are only 220%.
Well just as long as they don't put that sort of tariff on luxury yachts...
As the same ruling has been made against Cananda which has extensive free trade arrangements with the US, it wouldn't be relevant anyway.
What this demonstrates is how complex international trade can be.
Binners talks sense too.
(for a change)
yep it tells the UK that it's at the mercy of a lot of people now. All of which who are looking to protect and promote, when the UK wants something it will have to give up something.
@reign_man ta for checking in.
I see your concerns, even if I don't share them all.
Is your position "down with all of that" and get out? Do you see upsides to membership? Do you see downsides to leaving?
mefty - Member
No comments regards Macron's speech
THM mentioned it, but I think he got away with it.
😀
For example, the carrying of your ID card in some EU countries, that the police can stop you and check if they feel inclined. To role this out in a country that has no such requirement, do you not expect this to be met with some resistance?
although i am generally in favour of more integration, TBF i am not altogether in favour of mandatory ID cards, but i would likely deal with it. at least, in their favour, you can use them for international travel, outside the EU as well as within, so passports no longer required for many.
Past experience shows that in general, the EU costs for setting up anything new is not cheap,
UK gov procurement being the very model of VFM, of course. 😉
hope you realise I'm not having a pop at you, just trying to answer a couple of points you raise. 😀
BTW a colleague recently returned from sweden. in contrast to many of those who say 'no-one gives a monkey's about UK leaving on the continent, they don't even bring it up', apparently 3 swedes brought it up with him - started the conversation. their views seemed to be ( received second hand ) 'WTF are you doing?' and 'if you lot leave who is going to temper the germans?'
Maybe that's why the Germans aren't bothered 🙂
It seems you're trying to use Macron's speech as a justification for Brexit, Reign Man. None of the things you dislike was or was ever going to be imposed on the UK.
ID cards are useful and cost a fraction of a passport for those who don't wish to leave Europe. There's no obligation to carry it in France.
the last great hope...
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Del-To be fair, when it comes to VFM, no matter if it's the EU/UK/France/Germany etc, large government projects are just seen as a cash cow for large corporations, however, with the EU, any over run or blatant profiteering, can't be used by the opposition as it would in a sovereign country with politicians held to account (which, sadly is becoming a rare occurrence).
Matt-I am not nailing my colours to the mast either way. There is both upsides and downside to being in the EU and being out the EU. For the EU to fully succeed in the visions that some have for it, will require individual national identities to be replaced by an 'EU' identity, then and only then will people be fully integrated in the 'EU state'. But, with Macrons future views on there being 15 main members, does this mark a turning point in the EU's direction? that only two countries are need to push the reforms through (France and Germany) and that there is a need to put some member states into a second tier as there are too many diverse opinions between countries to make the current system unworkable to push ahead reforms and new policies.
Matt-I am not nailing my colours to the mast either way. There is both upsides and downside to being in the EU and being out the EU. For the EU to fully succeed in the visions that some have for it, will require individual national identities to be replaced by an 'EU' identity, then and only then will people be fully integrated in the 'EU state'.
Living in a country bigger than Europe you can retain identity across the place and be more efficient at what you do. I've said it many times before the future has less borders not more.
Edukator-I have put forward no such view or argument, I have not said I dislike or like the points raised in Macron's speech, or whether I am for or against Brexit. Of course there are upsides and also downsides to each proposal, but for member states there will be extra costs and some difficult agreements and a hard sell to their populace to implement some of them.
Regards ID cards in France, isn't it the law to carry an official form of identification?
Also, it seems that the view from Macron is that the current setup needs to change.
How would carrying an ID card make you more efficient at what you do?
And that pic above is truly disturbing
How would carrying an ID card make you more efficient at what you do?
Slightly out of context but having a single ID system for Europe would make it more efficient, having one team working on immigration and asylum rather than 24 would be better