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First up he should never have offered it, then he should have get the question right, humiliated Borris and delayed it for actual useful legislation.
Just because it's in the manifesto doesn't mean it's going to happen or are you new to politcs?
Bless
#Blessed?
Yes Brian
[quote=TurnerGuy ]So you're saying that Dave should have ignored his mandate to have a referendum, so ignoring democracy?
Because it was in the manifesto? Along with all sorts of other things they didn't do.
More news for you - just because somebody voted for a party doesn't mean they agreed with everything in the manifesto. Though even if they did, it's an interesting definition of democracy when 63% of the electorate voted against it.
Careful there aracer, that is 2 hard concepts in 1 post.
So do the Tories have a mandate to do anything now?
More news for you - just because somebody voted for a party doesn't mean they agreed with everything in the manifesto. Though even if they did, it's an interesting definition of democracy when 63% of the electorate voted against it.
Not that interesting, it is called Representative Democracy, pretty common.
The referendum was held under the clear knowledge that the result would be respected whatever the outcome - if people didn't get that, then more fool them
Of course, but it does mean that the claim for a mandate for something which has to be done because the people voted for it is on extremely shaky ground.
point being that when it suits you can opt out of the awkward bits your party pledged while saying others support 100% of what theirs put in the shredding/manifesto
Hell the Tories even managed to change theirs during the election after it had gone to the printers
[quote=teamhurtmore ]The referendum was held under the clear knowledge that the result would be respected whatever the outcome - if people didn't get that, then more fool them
I hope you're not calling the British public fools? Surely nobody voted in the referendum without knowing what they were voting for?
Bless
patronising...
Meanwhile between Barnier and Davies the negociations are going nowhere as Davies fails to understand he's agreed to sort out NI FOM and his debts before moving on and hasn't made any concrete proposals, even the 20bm he now says was "invented".
As the polls turn against Brexit (52:48 remain) the respecting democracy/the will of the people argument is weakening.
The only party that said that no longer have a clear majority in parliament. All bets are off.
If there was a ground swell of public opinion against Brexit when the terms become clearer then all other bets are off, who would go through with something with a country opposing it?
Would that be democratic?
Of course, but it does mean that the claim for a mandate for something which has to be done because the people voted for it is on extremely shaky ground.
If that's shaky ground, you are arguing from a punt.
Sorry Ed - x-thread humour doesn't x-border obviously. You miserable athiests
Still missing the point on the EU negotiation (sic) tactic I see 😯
Agnostic.
If Brexit looks like a car crash now, I dread to think what it's going to look like by the end of next week once Boris, Redwood, IDS et al have been given the stage for a week of xenophobic, little Englander ranting, cheered on by an audience of bitter old racists
Boris, Redwood, IDS et al have been given the stage for a week of xenophobic, little Englander ranting, cheered on by an audience of bitter old racists
Yep the clowns will be playing to their swivel eyed base, further pissing off the EU & embarassing the UK
If people didn't realise that a vote to leave would be overturned, then more fool them 🙂
deviant - MemberA lot of millennials seem to want to look for blame everywhere while waiting for someone else to remedy the situation for them...
And why not? They didn't create the situation and they have no real power to change it. If there's ever been a generation that has a right to blame someone else it's the millenials
If that's shaky ground, you are arguing from a punt.
At least my punt floats
Representative democracy refer to the fact we elect representativesNot that interesting, it is called Representative Democracy, pretty common
It does not explain how a party with more disliking it than supporting it gets power. For that explanation you need something else. IF we used PR and MP's were directly related to votes cast nationally its still a representative democracy , just a fairer one [ with other issues such as party lists and lack of constituency ties etc].
Its an effect of FPTP rather than with representative democracy.
Representative democracy is a form of democracy in which people vote for representatives who then vote on policy initiatives as opposed to a direct democracy, a form of democracy in which people vote on policy initiatives directly
cheered on by an audience of bitter old racists
I think I'm quite liberal but its these references that got us in this situation.
It wasn't 17 million racist who voted out.
It was 17 million people who didn't want intimidating foreign speaking gangs dominating their towns. They want to be able to access health care and schooling and housing and not lose out to financial migrants.
Those are legitimate concerns and should be addressed sensibly not just labelled racist and ridiculed.
Actually wilburt my mum voted out because she felt sorry about "what we did to Australia in the 70s".
And a bunch of people thought they were voting for more money for the NHS, that was all.
Those are legitimate concerns and should be addressed sensibly
It seems people don't like hearing foreign languages spoken. A lot of complaints about this. Maybe people need to get over this dislike? It's not really grounded is it?
I think you are referring to someone's description of people who have the time and inclination to attend the Tory Party conference, not millions of voters.I think I'm quite liberal but its these references that got us in this situation.cheered on by an audience of bitter old racists
Blame the immigrants! Let yet another government off the hook.They want to be able to access health care and schooling and housing and not lose out to financial migrants.
Apparently there are whole streets where all the signs are Polish and everything. I don't know exactly where, it is somewhere down south though. It must be true, I was told it by a brexiteer in Lancashire.
Representative Democracy
[i]Un[/i]representative Democracy would be a better name.
They want to be able to access health care
Well they are ****ing idiot numpties who shouldn't be trusted with a vote on Strictly if they think that cutting the immigration that substantially funds and staffs the NHS is going to help rather than hinder them access health care.
To be fair, that's what they were told. Repeatedly. You can't expect 30 million people to research what really goes on as regards immigration, tax, NHS staffing… and on and on. We have MPs to spend their time on that kind of stuff.
Using the NHS was the Leave campaign's trump bullshit card… Dominic Cummings is a genius.
Anyway…
[b]Edit - [/b]Oh, that's the edited one, without the Dad"s Army style attacking of the UK and the NHS by migrants… the original long one seems to be MIA.
Nope I'm not letting any goverments of the hook, the opposite. A significant proportion of the shortage in housing is due to migration.
People are effected by that because either they cant get a house or more houses are being built unnecessarily
The voices being foreign 'adds' to the intimadating aspect of 10+ youth/adult males standing around talking loudly, spitting and generally being ****s.
It doesnt matter what your opinions are if there is a significant proportion of people who have a bad experience or are uncomfortable with migration levels you need to talk to them not ridicule them.
So train our own kids to be doctors and nurses or allow migration of doctors and nurses. Its not that difficult a problem!
They are pretty unlikely to be the dossers I have to pick my way through each day.
Where are you trying to buy a house? What proportion of local buyers are recent immigrants?
10 people speaking "foreign" is a gang, 10 speaking "local" are lads?
Wilburt - I wasn't referring to Brexit voters generally as bitter old racists. I was referring to the scenes we will doubtless be treated to at the Tory party conference next week. It's going to be absolutely cringe-worthy I'm sure.
The unhinged right of the Tory party won't be able to help itself. The likes of Redwood and IDS will be crowing over the referendum result, demanding the hardest of Brexits, and slagging off the EU in the most illiberal xenophobic dog-whistle language they can get away with.
The cameras will pan out to reveal an audience cheering them to the rafters. An audience exclusively white, elderly, most of whom will have recently started a sentence with "I'm not racist, but....."
Just out of interest, what proportion of your take-home were you actually saving and what were you paying in rent?
I was rolling over between £600 - £1000 per month and putting it away in a savings account... i bought a crappy house that needed new double glazing, new carpets throughout, all the doors replacing etc...not a particularly nice area either...but it was the South East and had good road and train links to London...and the sheeple love that because London is the centre of the universe apparently. 🙄
The hard work continued for about 12 months after I completed in order to get the house up to scratch...11 years later we sold up, we'd paid off nearly half the mortgage and seen a rise of 70k on the pile of crap...we played the long game andb it worked for us, we could then take a load of equity to a cheaper and nicer part of the UK...i think today's kids expect instant gratification, it's symptomatic of a generation that can do everything quickly on their phone and online.
Yes, it worked for you… and it was no doubt flipping hard… but timing was important… especially where you were… imagine trying to repeat that now.
It doesnt matter what your opinions are if there is a significant proportion of people who have a bad experience or are uncomfortable with migration levels you need to talk to them not ridicule them.
Agree with this.
i think today's kids expect instant gratification
Do you know any of these kids? Have you spoken to them a lot? Or are you just spouting prejudice?
I used to agree with the "talk not ridicule" approach, until during the referendum campaign, and the preceding election, I tried talking to people who think that the problems around them are caused by migration… you just hit a brick wall, very fast. It's often a gut feeling, like a religion, that no amount of talking though the issues will change. "Avoid not ridicule" is my approach from now on. Just act like you are the outsider and let them get on with the blame shifting, it's their country now, and they're only reluctantly sharing it with the rest of us.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of an opinion which reason never brought him to.
Have you met a Scottish nationalist kelvin - they're brilliant?
Paul Krugman has some interesting insights into Brexit. Summary: we won't be better off.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/brexit-paul-krugman-zero-chance-britain-better-off-eu-leave-single-market-custom-union-exports-trade-a7965871.html?amp ]'Zero Chance' leaving EU will leave Britons better off[/url]
"It’s essentially zero chance that it’ll be beneficial on the trade front,” Mr Krugman said.
“I don’t think there’s any plausible case that Brexit is a good thing for the British economy as a whole.”
I have....[i]issues[/i] with Krugman on some of his views on globalisation but I think he's correct on this pronouncement.
All nationalism is deeply unpleasant and dangerous Hurty. As we'll all have ample opportunity to witness at next weeks cordoned-off festival of embarrassingly xenophobic, small-minded, backwards-gazing, delusional flag-waving in Manchester
You are going to watch a Tory conference?? Bloody hell......
Know your enemy! 😉
I doubt coverage of the 'I'm more Brexit than you' competition will be easy to avoid
Best place to unfurl an EU flag surely.
“It’s not a huge cost ... but it is a cost,” he said.
Thank you Paul - perspective