Forum menu
Could someone give me a point by point run down on the differences between AfD and Tory party policy.
Not much. Haircuts?
Its a bit rich us moaning about the influence of the far right while we've been sending this **** and his mates to the EU Parliament for how many years as our elected representatives
[img] 
[/img]
Labours constructive ambiguity on Brexit is a tightrope they are determined to walk.
Trouble is once in power they'd need a clear plan that keeps a lid on things, or they'd end up like the Tories.... still divided & making themselves look selfish & incompetent at home & abroad.
This weakness has left the Tories flapping in the wind over Brexit, but have now decided to do as Labour suggested and ask for a transition, they could have said that months ago but too constrained by their continued pedaling of the Vote Leave BS.
Is Jezza's "grand plan" to enable protectionism & subsidies for the industries & workers that make up the [s]loony left[/s] labour core voters, knowing full well the massive retaliation will hit those with loadsamaney and voters that would never touch labour?
Win-Win: the rich get poorer and the pro EU "baddies" get shown how awful the EU really is.
Christ, I hope it's more sophisticated than this. It [i]must [/i]be smarter than this?!
Labours constructive ambiguity on Brexit is a tightrope they are determined to walk.
Whatever happened to clear conviction politics!!!
Trouble is once in power they'd need a clear plan that keeps a lid on things,
Next 6 months ?? 😉
I reckon that despite the bluster about be a govt-in-waiting they are secretly hoping to stay out of power for a fair while yet 🙂
Their fear of AfD will help them overcome that failing Mefty
Not convinced, Rutte moved to a more hard line policy to combat Wilders, Fillon was the front runner in France until he was investigated, so who knows.
Macron is quoted as saying "I am dead" if Merkel goes into coalition with the FDP.
I reckon that despite the bluster about be a govt-in-waiting they are secretly hoping to stay out of power for a fair while yet
I reckon you're bang on there captain. Just sit back on your 'constructive ambiguity' line and watch the Tory party go into meltdown over Europe, as per usual. They can't help themselves. Boris and Hammond are already furiously briefing and plotting against each other a week in advance of the conference. There's going to be full scale civil war in the Tory party, which will lead us all god knows where? One things for sure. It'll be nowhere anyone sensible wants to go.
The labour party just needs to sit back and wait to see what emerges from the post-May ashes of Tory Party, and await the inevitable general election as Brexit implodes under the weight of its own bullshit
Problem is they then have to come up with a manifesto and policies that triangulate from some brexit bullshit to some way of delaying any exit. They probably won't be able to formally abandon brexit for a good while yet, but brexit delayed is brexit denied 🙂
"Transition" via some norway-style arrangement is still substantially worse than the status quo, with none of the putative advantages to placate the loonies. Plus, once you've gone there, it will be hard to revert to full membership.
Hopefully the AFD will take care of theselves the way UKIP did when they got what they wanted?
[img] 
[/img]
In some ways this is as a success for ISIS, as well as a failing of Merkel, shes still the queen of Europe, just has more on her plate at home!
I reckon that despite the bluster about be a govt-in-waiting they are secretly hoping to stay out of power for a fair while yet
Yeah I'm also wondering if Tories are happy to hand it over for a term and let Lab carry the can on Brexit.
Notable headline pic - 2 activists at Momentum rally also have very prominent "Brexit is Bollocks" stickers.
Somehow that circle has to be squared, Lab must know a lot of their boost at the GE came from anti-Brexit youth.
Yeah I'm also wondering if Tories are happy to hand it over for a term and let Lab carry the can on Brexit.
No chance! They're obsessed. I'm sure May would bow out like a shot. Just look at her FFS. She's effectively being held hostage as penance for her election balls up.
But Boris cynically sees Brexit as his route to power, and for the likes of John Redwood, Rees Mogg and IDS Brexit is nothing short of a religion. They've lusted after this for decades. Theres no way they're giving up on it now. Whatever the cost to the country, or even their own party. They're like cult members! Evangelical nut-jobs gleefully ushering in 'The Rapture'
Labour's position is complicated by a number of factors, not the least of which is that a large number of Remain voters ignored the Lib Dems and backed Labour in June. There is a pro-EU majority amongst Labour voters, which is forcing Corbyn's hand.
Brexit is tearing the Conservatives apart. They're presiding over a hung parliament, with open in-fighting between cabinet members. If May steps down or is ousted, then there is a very real risk of another general election that will most likely result in another hung parliament with a very real possibility of a humiliating overture to the Lib Dems or the SNP (both very pro-EU). As a result, the Conservatives are trying to sidestep parliament. They have lost a lot of time since Article 50 was enacted in March and have achieved very little. It is evident that the full implications of Brexit have yet to sink in to the hard right. In five years time, the Conservatives will either be in the process of reinventing themselves in a Cameronesque exercise to detoxify their brand, with most of the current cabinet long gone, or they will be the rump party we saw between 1997-2005.
Labour is wise to let this play out and watch the Conservatives self destruct from afar. But if they themselves ignore the majority of their voters' desire to remain, the punishment at the polls will be brutal.
binners - MemberBut Boris cynically sees Brexit as his route to power, and for the likes of John Redwood, Rees Mogg and IDS Brexit is nothing short of a religion. They've lusted after this for decades. Theres no way they're giving up on it now. Whatever the cost to the country, or even their own party.
And of course, if brexit damages the economy that's an excuse to reduce worker rights and slash the welfare state, and then no doubt blame immigrants and scroungers, it's a win-win for a certain sort of ultra****. They thought the financial crisis was a once in a lifetime opportunity
[i]Ultra[/i] is a good word, descriptive but not derogatory. Like it.
[quote=PJM1974 ]Labour's position is complicated by a number of factors, not the least of which is that a large number of Remain voters ignored the Lib Dems and backed Labour in June. There is a pro-EU majority amongst Labour voters, which is forcing Corbyn's hand.
Despite certain sections of Labour voters being pro Brexit there always has been a pro-EU majority amongst Labour voters, it's not particularly due to defection from the Lib Dems (though clearly the Lib Dems didn't gain Labour remainers in the way they hoped they would). Amongst Labour MPs the pro-EU majority appears to be overwhelming - I don't think JC has any choice but to pursue a pro-EU line given that there is very little support from anywhere in the party for the line he'd presumably like to take.
If May steps down or is ousted, then there is a very real risk of another general election that will most likely result in another hung parliament
A lot of non-Tories seem to be hoping for another GE to follow from May being replaced, but I'm not sure that necessarily follows - 4 of the last 7 British PMs have first become PM following a leadership change within their own party (it's hardly something new like people seem to keep suggesting) and only TM saw fit to call a GE within the first year! Though if there was a GE now there's a good chance Labour would win a majority - at worst Labour would be forming a coalition (or a confidence and supply arrangement - I don't think the SNP are likely to go into coalition with anybody).
A lot of non-Tories seem to be hoping for another GE to follow from May being replaced, but I'm not sure that necessarily follows - 4 of the last 7 British PMs have first become PM following a leadership change within their own party (it's hardly something new like people seem to keep suggesting) and only TM saw fit to call a GE within the first year!
Problem is those ones had a majority. TM goes, DUP want to renegotiate then it's a GE. It's a lot more likely a scenario
Nope - still don't see how that follows. DUP won't necessarily feel the need to renegotiate, and if they do then that's what they'll do rather than backing a no-confidence motion. I can't see what's in it for them to bring down a government where they have some power and influence. Given the non attendance of Sinn Fein, the DUP simply have to abstain for the Tories to win a vote if they're all successfully whipped (as surely they would be for a confidence vote).
I don't think JC has any choice but to pursue a pro-EU line given that there is very little support from anywhere in the party for the line he'd presumably like to take.
I think that you're bang on there, aracer.
Problem is those ones had a majority. TM goes, DUP want to renegotiate then it's a GE. It's a lot more likely a scenario
The DUP deal isn't yet fully in the bag, as it will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. If it fails, the government will face the prospect of having open debate in parliament about another GE.
I don't think JC has any choice but to pursue a pro-EU line given that there is very little support from anywhere in the party for the line he'd presumably like to take.
Caroline Flint
They can debate all they like - until such time as the DUP are prepared to vote with the other opposition parties on a no-confidence motion there won't be a GE.
Thanks for the PM, Jamba. I'll say whatever I've got say say here though.
[quote=mefty ]Caroline Flint
is very little of the PLP
And if the DUP ask for more? If they don't get something they want?
The are running on the line here and if a leader arrives that they don't like? Reckon Borris can lead them?
On the subject of Labour distancing themselves from the entire debacle and dissent in their ranks, did you all see this?
is very little of the PLP
Not alone, the point being she is a remainer, but represents a northern constituency that voted Brexit, plenty of those in the PLP.
Ah, sorry, missed the point (was a bit confused as I thought she was a remainer). Despite the the PLP appears to still be very much pro-EU.
Labour distancing themselves from the entire debacle
And from the youth vote that is their only hope of a return to power. Young people don't want a Labour party that wants out of Europe.
And from the youth vote that is their only hope of a return to power. Young people don't want a Labour party that wants out of Europe.
They're betting they'll still carry the youth vote as being the best alternative to the Tories.
Reality is, in most places, any vote other than the 2 big parties is "wasted". (Actually it's not, Brexit proves that because the UKIP votes still had an effect).
Reality is in most places any vote is wasted cos it's not got a cat in hell's chance of changing hands.
Wow, this has turned into a cosy little, left, echo chamber.
Anyhow, I've got to find a new job now.
I've been sacked by one Eastern european and replaced with another.
(note: I haven't named the exact country of their origin, that's not the point, although I expect 99% will miss that point}
The CEO and share holders will be pleased, another expensive resident labourer replaced with a lower skilled, cheaper, replacement.
Yay for Europe!
What line of work Solo, what happened?
(I'm not a lefty).
Why have you been sacked ?
I genuinely sympathise Solo, that is unfortunate.
that's not the point, although I expect 99% will miss that point
What is the point though? Aren't lower skilled workers generally cheaper regardless of where they're from?
Reality is in most places any vote is wasted cos it's not got a cat in hell's chance of changing hands.
Only 15% of seats haven't changed hands at least once in the last forty years.
Wow, this has turned into a cosy little, left, echo chamber.
"The Left" seem to want out of the EU in large numbers, and cite protecting people like you as one of the reasons Solo.
I think it's people who are both socially and economically liberal that most strongly defend FoM within the EEA, and there used to be more of them in the Conservative Party (right?) but then they got a grip on the Labour Party (left?) but don't have control of either now… are there more liberal (small "l")(in both senses) posters in this echo chamber, than in the country at large? Yup, it seems so.
Solo, genuine question , member of a union? (I am a lefty)
(note: I haven't named the exact country of their origin, that's not the point, although I expect 99% will miss that point}
the point, presumably, is you are not racist. not necessary, it's accepted as given of course.
mefty - MemberOnly 15% of seats haven't changed hands at least once in the last forty years.
Sure, but the average age is 40 so that means half of that time was before the average person could vote.
Also, probably a lot of these changes were through demographic and boundary changes such that they were not particularly marginal at the time of the vote.
But in any case, the chance of a single vote changing anything is minuscule, which is as it should be (given how many millions of voters there are). Whether that vote is made for the winning party (in any given constituency), the 2nd place party or 3rd or 4th doesn't matter.
Sure, but the average age is 40 so that means half of that time was before the average person could vote.
Which is relevant to the point, whilst people say there is no point voting, on the basis of the numbers of seats that change hands in one election is low, the "battlegorund" seats change quite a lot over time - so the immediate chances of you voting someone out are low, the long term prospects are pretty good.
If you move about a lot, then maybe.the long term prospects are pretty good.
Even if you move about enough to visit each constituency on polling day, there's still chuff all chance of making a difference 🙂
UKIP got nearly 13% of the vote share in the 2015 GE but only 1 seat (out of 650).
I don't blame their supporters for being angry!
(Cons got 3x as many votes and 330 times as many seats!)
Perhaps if UKIP had had a reasonable representation in Parliament and faced off against they could have been managed and kept in place. Instead of the creepy reverse takeover of the Tories that possibly gave them much more influence.
(Greens and to a degree the LDs very short changed too).