[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Twice in two posts THM. Chill.

Yes they did. Wa asked everyone above the voting age. It was on whether we wanted to remain members of the EU. This requires acceptance of the four freedoms. The majority of voters said thnsk you, but no thank you. We cannot pretend otherwise.

Being member of the EU requires acceptance of the 4 Freedoms, but not being an EU member does not require their rejection.

Not all buses are red 😉

Now I will try to take my own advice and stop arguing.

IGM correct membership of and access to are different things. Peston was struggling with this, Len tried to help him out. But (as here,) Peston didn't seem keen to listen to why the distinction is important.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

Beware words. Dangerous things.

me> Yeah, but we don't have a common view of what makes something beneficial

t> No we don't so we went back to the familiar, popular solution of let's have a vote on it.

We did, and that took one option off the table. Unfortunately it was the best option, but ho hum.

Now - how do we rank the remaining options?

Existing versions incomplete and unsatisfactory - 2/10

We need a bespoke, comprehensive agreement tailored to our unique situation and relationship 10/10

Let's get..... 😉

Oh yes - a red, white and blue Brexit. Good that's sorted!!

Really - meaningless blether aside - how can we proceed? Voting "leave" meant different things to different groups of people, many of which are mutually exclusive. Which of those sets of wishes - not to mention the wishes of the 48% - should be put first?

there was a great video on access vs membership from on e of the Parliamentary committees, can't find it!

example ...

access: airlines can fly to EU airports from outside EU, but not within the EU. second rank on landing slots because the best go to members.
membership: airlines can fly within the EU and members get preferential access to landing slots regardless of nationality.

Give it 6 months and the prospect of Borris and JRM I reckon the easy sell for 2/3 majority is the least leave, pay to play option. 2nd Fav would be a tail between the legs hasty retreat when the Communist party is in charge 😉

Through negotiation

But it's going pretty slowly right now. Too slowly

Through negotiation

From a negotiating textbook - "if you don't know what you want, you're unlikely to get it". Seems to sum up our situation.

Voting "leave" meant different things to different groups of people, many of which are mutually exclusive.

yes. in this sense, remain is homogenous, leave is splintered, so remain, of several options in the table rather than 2, clearly won.

The current position of both major political parties suggests that remain is far from homogenous. Remain on the sides, remain and become more closely integrated with the project, and in the case of some Scots remain and be part of the folly that is the € as crazy as that is!!

The only thing remain did was lose (just) and with an open goal beckoning

Well, "remain" was homogeneous in the sense that it was clear what the landscape post-referendum would be, because it wouldn't change from pre-referendum, so remain voters knew precisely what they were voting for, whereas some leave voters ticked the box for "no irish or darkies" while others wanted an end to red tape. Now nobody knows what, if anything, they will get.

Remain is full membership as we have now. Seems very clear to me. "Remain on the sides" is leave, just moderated.

Not sure about that open goal THM

Busy now but might post later

Gonna clean the bathroom. At least something I do today will have a benefit!

Now nobody knows what, if anything, they will get.

True. The great unknown.....

We had all better ge.....

Taking of which need an hour of writing a report and then a ride

A bientot

The only reasonable "solution" I can see is one where reasonable politicians across the board argue clearly and forcefully that the EU has been a force for good and that our membership of it has been and will continue to be hugely beneficial to the country.

If they hadn't used it as a whipping boy for their own failings for decades, this would be easier...

Even if that were to happen they're up against Farage (funded by Banks), a formidable team who know the devil has the best tunes and how to sing them, oh and backed by the red tops immersive bleating. (And Lee Hurst it seems).

reasonable politicians

There are plenty of reasonable politicians. But they're not the ones with the ruthless streak to fight their way to the top of the Darwinian scrap pile.

But remember, it's important that the tories stay in power and promote their long term economic plan which is working, otherwise we might lose our AAA credit rating and that would be... a... disaster. Oh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41369239

There are plenty of reasonable politicians who agree with the view I stated but are too scared to utter it in public for fear of the press.

Wa asked [b]everyone[/b] above the voting age.

Kelvin you conveniently miss the fact that this thread is being derailed by persistant abuse of facts in order to object to a democratic process and attempts to suppress the voices of the very small minority of STW forumites who voted leave or who want to get on with it.

The only reasonable "solution" I can see is one where reasonable politicians across the board argue clearly and forcefully that the EU has been a force for good and that our membership of it has been and will continue to be hugely beneficial to the country

We had that chance and blew it.

How may brexit politicians are also out there but scared to speak out in case they are castigated as racists? HM leader of the oppo?

I see that the runners and riders are already briefing against each other over who can be the 'most' Brexit, ahead of the Tory conference

Shamelessly courting all the senile, bitter old racists who will decide who gets to follow Theresa.

Is it any wonder this whole thing is such an almighty cluster-**** when that's the gallery that they all have to exclusivly play too

Ouch, tough result for Merkel

4 terms is impressive but sad to see the far right doing so well

Oh dear. That's going to be tricky. Some transition deal while new partners are arranged 😉

Macron the new Merkel then....

It's all rather messy isn't it. Makes me quite uncomfortable really - and that before US and NK

Presumably that makes Merkel more inclined to show what a bad thing leaving the EU would be.

I don't think it ranks very highly in their considerations. It's not like there was going to be "now I've won handsomely let's all roll over and give May anything she asks for".

Agreed. But it may now be “I’ve got to show those AfD supporters why leaving is bad”.

Probably marginal either way, but we just became less important, more of a political football.

Marginal for Brexshit imo

At least we know who to have proper talks with

Not a pretty sight for Europe

At our end, labour supressing Brexshit debate and the Tories tearing themselves apart over it. Ugly stuff

Not surprised that Labour and Tories are tearing themselves apart.

There is a fundamental underlying reason, I think, why Brexit, no matter what deal we get, will be unsuccessful.

Musing and considering over the now not inconsiderable time since the referendum, I’m edging towards a view on why the vote went the way it did.
And why remain didn’t miss an open goal - though arguably both sides did.

The conclusion? Well first beware of generalisations to follow, but it wasn’t about race or nationalism (except perhaps in a very distant and fairly inoffensive way), it wasn't about the economy, nor taking back control. It wasn’t even about our relationship with Europe.

Look at the geographic voting patterns. Scotland, NI, London, Bristol, Liverpool, York - all voted remain, what do they have in common? Very little. Except they all have a strong identity, sense of self. And confidence in that. It’s not even the same sense of identity, but it is highly recognisable.

Conversely the strongest leave votes come from areas that used to have a strong sense of identity and lost it. Mining communities for example.

Look at sociodemographics. Those in education or middle class jobs vote remain. Occupations where one can say “I am a...”.

So it’s not external, not about our relationship with Europe at all, but our relationship with ourselves. And you can’t change that by leaving Europe.

Turning to the present, the lack of confidence that created the leave vote is evident everywhere. From our rudderless government and negotiation, to our papers shouting about traitors and saboteurs, seeing conspiracy everywhere. Even the “we had a vote, we do not need to talk about it anymore” stance is typical of someone under confident clinging to certainty.

And of course, vague statements that suggest the UK striding across the globe are just the thing to appeal to a collective Walter Mitty syndrome.

And the problem is, even if the EU do turn round and offer free unicorns, it won’t address the lack of a strong identity for millions of people in the UK.

Of course I could be wrong.

Agree with your thoughts on identity … but all the areas you mention have a strong sense of identity, I'd argue that is true as much for areas where the leave vote was high, is just that the remain voting areas marry their "modern" and "traditional" identities… they are happy and proud of how their indenties have morphed and feel they have an identity with a strong future.

Don’t disagree. I think that may be the only way identity survives.

Incidentally, driving from York to Glasgow on Saturday, it was noticeable that just about every bridge on the M74 had people on it flying Saltires and EU stars. Not huge numbers of people, but had a bit of an impact.

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Presumably that makes Merkel more inclined to show what a bad thing leaving the EU would be.

The FDP is likely to be a member of the ruling coalition and they have a Eurosceptic faction so not necessarily so.

Their fear of AfD will help them overcome that failing Mefty.

It is interesting to see Labour slowly sidling round to a pro-EU stance. It's clear as day that they will get there eventually, sort of amusing (but frustrating) to see how long it's taking them to do it though. As for the tories though, I really don't see a way forward for them. Shame.

For all Corbyn's distaste for the single market on anti-globalist 'bad for the workers' terms, I would have thought he would be able to balance that with the effects of long term economic stagnation on jobs and public services?

Does have the appearance of a supertanker turning around rather than a nimble and effective opposition. Was hoping that JC would be making more of the Tories' extremely vulnerable position by now.

On Marr his main objection was the constraints on nailing out fu@@ed industries.

But yes the tag line is Jobs First Brexshit

Another clear message!!!

Labour are split on this, but just not in such an unhinged manner as the Tories.

Listening to John McDonnel just now it appears that Jezza and his team still feel that membership of the single market would prevent them from nationalising everything due to EU state aid rules.

But the vast majority of his MP's are pro-EU. Not that that cuts much mustard with Jezza. However, it's being pointed out to him that this huge groundswell of support, all these Momentum members and people who've joined the Labour Party are massively Remain voters. Hence the gradual change in tone. Len and the union mob are all pro-EU too, as they know full well what the Tories are planning to do under cover of Brexit. Goodbye workers rights.

Its going to be interesting to see if this uneasy truce can hold this week. The leadership have done everything possible to keep it off the agenda

I think we can take it as read the Tories will go at each other like rats in a sack right from the off when it's their turn next week

Not a pretty sight for Europe

Could someone give me a point by point run down on the differences between AfD and Tory party policy.

Not a pretty sight for the UK.