[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

If some vaguely left political party makes sensible noises about immigration they will be in and this whole thing would go away.

EU politicians turned down invite to Florence so journalist given passes at last minute to prevent empty seats as she was faced with at the UN...

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/grossbritannien-briten-wollen-freunde-bleiben-1.3679177!amp

mikewsmith - Member
Did we, how could anybody have forgotten,

Extraordinary isn't it

BTW I am not hopeful. Merely pragmatic and less pessimtic - oh and I respect the democratic process. Unpopular as that position is these days

This issue raises very many questions about the democratic process to my mind, biased media influence chief among them. The generational divide raises many questions too, the ability of the old to decide the future of the young against their will too.

Watch the Adrian Chiles doc and hear what those leave voters say ("lots of little shops", "6 kids social housing, can't get a job that pays because of the Polish"). Or that one from Doncaster where the woman's voting leave because she's angry about the 80s miner's strike.

These people are deciding our kids' futures.

(I wish I had good answers).

Don't forget how folk stil harped back to the poll tax when it came to the Indy [s]diatrirbes[/s] debates

But the media point is valid. There are v few options for neutral analysis

The silly papers and the Torygraoh abuse facts one way and the remoaning rags the other. The there is bloody kuensberg and her crap in the Beeb.

Bloody difficult to find a balanced view. My tennis partner was suggesting the times this morning but I find it hard to financially support the dirty digger.

FT is only mildly biased albeit it with a pro Eu bias

oh and I respect the democratic process.

In which case you'll be fully aware that in the Westminster democratic system this was merely an advisory referendum with no more weight than a Bake Off vote.

[b]Media:[/b] FT the only paper worth reading on this… Guardian and Times have both been surprising poor. You expect the others to do what they do.

[b]Democracy: [/b]Let's vote on a real alternative to EU membership… any single alternative… I'd prefer EEA, but Brexitiers can knock their heads together to try and find consensus on another alternative, if they are capable of doing so … not multiple contradictory plans that haven't even been sketched out, never mind fleshed out.

Gotta have a free press, but power brings responsibility.

Everyone has to have a say, our ancestors struggled to achieve that.

Millions of people are happy with the result (tho many less than voted for it I feel).

Hard circle to square.

e fully aware that in the Westminster democratic system this was merely an advisory referendum with no more weight than a Bake Off vote.

At least humour hasn't died 😀

Left off the Evening Standard which has descended into the abyss as gideons gobshite

Left off the Evening Standard which has descended into the abyss as gideons gobshite

It's hard to descend when you're already pretty close to the bottom. That said, Gideon's continued tormenting of May, and his glee whilst doing so, is quite something to behold

It's a subtle as a brick and makes the standard ridiculous - a quick 5 min giggle at rhe end of the day, nothing more

It's a subtle as a brick and makes the standard ridiculous - a quick 5 min giggle at rhe end of the day, nothing more

Sure, but the Standard's standards have always been low. At least now it's amusing as opposed to just irrelevant.

I don't see why this is so difficult....in theory.

However in reality I do think the EU is punishing the UK for daring to leave, it's childish and making things difficult.

Given the speech last week about a European police and military it was a good call to leave...those at the top want (and are headed towards) a massive federalist state like a European version of the US...some may welcome that but plenty don't.

The anger directed in the UK's direction stems from the fact we're a net contributor...when we leave the EU will lose billions each year, that impacts their cosy project for a more integrated Europe and leaves Germany and France (mainly) footing the bill.

As someone who voted to leave I have no problem with the UK honoring its financial commitments that were agreed in 2013 and last for 7 years I believe, that's fair and decent...but a penalty or 'divorce bill' on top of that takes the mickey...a country leaving shouldn't be punished for wanting more independence, it's smacks of totalitarian politics...do what we want/say or else...this is the main theme most people like me have given for wanting to leave, the EU seems to want to operate like a dictatorship...there is nothing wrong with the UK wanting its own courts to be the highest level a case can go, there's nothing wrong with the UK wanting to set its own immigration figures, there's nothing wrong with wanting to keep an independent currency etc...yet the EU seems to think it has the right to overrule all these things.
In a supposed democracy I feel powerless when the EU goes on another ego trip grabbing powers from individual nations.

While there are some people who voted out for xenophobia and racist reasons the main theme among my social group was what I just wrote above, we want UK courts and politicians running the country not a convoluted system operating remotely from Brussels that can overrule.

If the EU's finances are so dire that they need propping up by the UK for years to come and then a whopping great lump sum on top then it just reinforces my view that as an organisation it's not fit for purpose and should have been culled a long time ago.

Look at how the EU are currently behaving towards Hungary, Poland and the Czech republic for a massively underreported example of what I mean...these countries have seen the reckless move that Merkel made with regard to uncontrolled immigration and the subsequent strain on infrastructure and have said 'No'....they will take migrants but they want to do it in limited numbers and at their own pace...perfectly reasonable I think.
The EU however has other ideas and are currently threatening them with sanctions and fines for not taking the numbers they've been ordered to take....what a lovely organisation the EU is, how very Democratic of them to issue orders and then fined for not complying...it's like they know the mess Germany made of the migrant crisis but won't admit it, instead they seem to want to spread the misery around other countries.
Poland have quite sensibly said that large numbers of migrants from other cultures and religions will take time to assimilate to their deeply rooted Catholic culture and may cause friction in the beginning....again a realistic and sensible appraisal of the situation....not according to the EU though who seemingly just want to cover their ears and not listen to valid concerns of member states.

Personally the quicker this country is out of that mess of a bureaucracy the better.

deviant - Member
I don't see why this is so difficult....in theory.

However in reality I do think the EU is punishing the UK for daring to leave, it's childish and making things difficult.

That is not punishing the UK, that us not being awkward it's telling the UK what it needed to at least work out before starting all this.

deviant - Member
I don't see why this is so difficult....in theory.

While in practice, when the UK is making a load of impractical demands, we can all see why it’s difficult.

The basic problem is that the UK did extremely well out of Europe and the EU, and much as certain elements want to “take back control”, they don’t want to be the party / people forever associated with the UK giving up the huge upside.

That help?

I don't see why this is so difficult....in theory.

Well it's all been talked about here.

1) So much of our country is governed by EU institutions. So many of our activities are done as part of the EU. Scientific research, banking processes, regulations, frameworks etc etc. Lots of stuff the EU government does there is no-one in the UK doing it. So we have to re-create a big chunk of civil service.

2) Leaving the EU fully requires closing our borders. But Ireland is still in, so we cannot close the UK's borders to the EU without closing the NI border.

3) The hundreds of thousands of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens here cannot simply be sent home. But they are where they are because of EU FoM. So what are you going to do? Send everyone home?

4) Huge parts of our economic activity are based on moving goods, services and people around the EU freely. It will be much harder if we leave the single market and customs union. We'd need armies of bureaucrats to manage it EVEN IF our trading partners were prepared to put up with the ballache. If a UK company two years ago only just won a contract against a German competitor, they sure as hell won't win it now on renewal.

5) A lot our high skilled workforce is from the EU. Are they willing to fork out for visas and deal with all the terrible red tape, whilst people are abusing them in the street simply for being foreign? Probably not. They'll leave. What are we going to do then?

If you think it's simple even in theory, you really don't know what the EU actually gives us.

Why is the EU being childish? They cannot continue to give us all the benefits without any of the commitments. Why would they? They won't act against their own interests for our benefit. We're now a competitor instead of a partner, remember.

Personally the quicker this country is out of that mess of a bureaucracy the better.

If you think the UK has the skills to solve any of these issues simply and clearly you're deluded. There's going to be a [i]massive [/i]amount of extra bureaucracy. It'll be a far worse mess.

it's telling the UK what it needed to at least work out before starting all this

Hook, line and sinker 😉

Not really, entering a 2 year time limited negotiation with zero clue about the 3 fundamentals seems a little foolish really. You know like turning up to do a deal and not knowing which company you walked into.

Lots of stuff the EU government does there is no-one in the UK doing it. So we have to re-create a big chunk of civil service.

😯

How weird. Totally the wrong way round in the case of one industry you note. And then this

We're now a competitor instead of a partner, remember.

😯 ^2

@deviant I think fundamentally you're a nationalist, your identity is tied to where the borders are. Personally I put membership of the world's biggest free trade area, and the right to freely live work and study in the wonderfully diverse continent, above which city the court is in.

Immigration - the govt has had decades to deal with this, most comes from outside the EU, and many Brits move to the EU too, counterbalancing that.

I don't believe there was any prospect of UK being in the Euro. And the police/army thing, _if_ it had happened we'd have vetoes or opt-outs. (By leaving, we don't).

As for the racists & xenophobes, you're not, but they voted with you (or you with them) to produce the win. Worth a thought.

Listening to Europe 1 this morning the 20bn was presented as an initial payment with a total payment of 60-100bn.

I think those against the ECJ need to look at some of the rulings against the UK, the ones that concern individuals treated badly by British justice rather than just the price of beer. However some tories would much rather gun down unarmed "terror" suspects rather than arrest them. The ECJ put an end to Britain's "shoot to kill" policy in NI.

Agree payments and obligations on exit

They want us to pay for a budget that we agreed to even though we may no longer be in the EU and not longer have access to the market - that is a bit like leaving the gym payiong for it and not being allowed to use it. We do owe clearly but the EU position is ambitous

Solve the NI Border

Agree EU Citizens rights who live in the UK

I wonder if both sides views are designed to not get a deal ?

To be clear I like the ECJ and dont want to leave it as we need an independent check on our Govts power and Mays real objection is they stopped her treating people in custody terribly. I dont want that to go unchecked and whilst our courts would work without a written constitution [ so parliament can change any law] that is a meaningless power/check.

The ECJ put an end to Britain's "shoot to kill" policy in NI.

Do you have the correct court ? You may be correct, but I thought it was the ECHR. Can you confirm?

THM, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, that would be better than just being 😯 ed at.

Can you explain yourself maybe shed some light?

ECHR indeed, THM.

Ok so what has the ECHR's role in ending STK got to do with Brexshit?

Mol

1. You comments are inaccurate re financial services
2. Ditto re competitor v partner

I was replying to:

.there is nothing wrong with the UK wanting its own courts to be the highest level a case can go,

If you want ECJ rluing against British counrt decisions there's a good choice too. For example overriding the throwing out of the mother of a British child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Court_of_Justice_rulings

Ok, but what has the ECHR and its role in ending STK got to do with brexshit?

Well the comment was posted on this thread. I'll repeat as you seem to have missed it:

there is nothing wrong with the UK wanting its own courts to be the highest level a case can go,

An attempt to censor what's discussed on the thread, THM (adds random question mark THM style) ? (and another ofr good measure) ?

On the contrary - encouraging further discussion and clarification and also seeking to ensure (1) that points made are accurate and (2) relevant

This is something that you value yourself, indeed you recently made the comment about how poor people's understanding was of the issues involved were

In this case, you comment in response to an earlier post failed in both counts above. A cynic may suggest that this was a deliberate tactic - after all people referred to as remoaners do this a lot. Are you in that camp? Alternatively you simply did not understand the role of the ECJ or made a simple mistake. Let hope it was its the latter 😉

Either way, the ECHR had nothing to do with brexshit as we all know, or at least should do

As you were....

oh and I respect the democratic process.

Oppose or obstruct?

Frankly it doesn't matter whether WE think it's a bad idea. We lost. It's happening.

Either way, the ECHR had nothing to do with brexshit as we all know, or at least should do

So you knew the answer (you wanted) all along and were just being difficult and trying to make me look foolish. Now I understand.

No I wanted clarification on the role of the ECJ - the point you were using to make someone else [s]look foolish [/s] appear mistaken.

We can leave it up to others to decide who ended up looking [s]foolish[/s] mistaken

But on ECHR, yes I am well aware that this has nothing to do with Brexshit. You "should" be aware of that too. Or if not appreciate being edukated on the matter

That is one of the benefits of discussions 😉

No I wanted clarification on the role of the ECJ

It would have been so easy to sak for it, or even provide it as you are clearly aware of the role.

That's your problem here THM, you put more effort into being a **** than debating the issues.

Frankly it doesn't matter whether WE think it's a bad idea. We lost. It's happening.

No I wasn't. I did not know so I asked you politely to clarify. You made claim, so it was only safe to assume that you knew.

Do you have the correct court ? You may be correct, but I thought it was the ECHR. Can you confirm?

You can insult your way out of that if you like. Or simply accept that you were wrong and move on

Remember that Jambas got abused off here on the basis of making things up, so standards have to be kept up don't they. Otherwise we would all be terrible hypocrites wouldn't we?? And no one would like that.

Anyway thanks for the clarification on who was involved.[b] At least I learned something. [/b]Cheers 😉

We can all voice our opinions - look how many pages we have here.

Well not all obviously as some are now excluded or have excluded themselves

Any questions was an interesting listen this weekend.

Brexies being very clear, particularly when it was pointed out that folk may be changing their minds, that folk are not allowed to change their minds.

Democracy?

R4? Is it worth downloading?

Fortunately both (important) sides "may" be changing their minds slowly. We might even get to start some proper negotiations soon.

Here's hoping....

There are two "both sides":

the in/out issue and the UK/EU issue. Which ends up as:

day to day variable UK position/consistent EU position

Proper negotiations are not going to happen if one side spends all of its time shifting the jumpers that make up the goalposts rather than heeding the ref's whistle to start the game.

Brexies being very clear, particularly when it was pointed out that folk may be changing their minds, that folk are not allowed to change their minds.

Democracy?

There's a David Davis quote on this.

Ah here http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-countries-democracy-brexit-vote-article-50-second-referendum-a7629636.html

[i]However, it has emerged that in a 2012 speech on the European Union (EU), Mr Davis said: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”.[/i]

We might even get to start some proper negotiations soon.

There's not much room to negotiate from what I can see. Unless the maybot has some kind of mystery ace up her sleeve that no one in the EU or the UK has previously considered.
Given the governments shambolic performance so far, I'd strongly advise against holding your breath.

THM, regarding the ECHR, we cannot leave it while in the EU, and May (along with many other Tories) has made it clear that she wishes to leave the ECHR. So while leaving the EU does not automatically entail leaving the ECHR, the link seems clear enough.