[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Odd that so many people are currently in the process of negotiating one. How absurd is that?

You tell us, thm. The whole charade seems little more than a device to prop up this dysfunctional govt one day st a time.

Well capn it's tough when one sides tactic is to avoid negotiating if possible, true

Very odd idea that this mess is propping up the government. They seem in some considerable disarray to me. You may know better though

teamhurtmore - Member
Odd that so many people are currently in the process of negotiating one. How absurd is that?

True but you have to deal with what is in front it you not what you wish was in front of you. I may have mentioned that before.

Well capn it's tough when [s]one[/s] [b]both[/b] sides tactic is to avoid negotiating if possible, true

Of course it's propping up the govt. while they can keep on kicking the can down the road, they can pretend they [i]are[/i] a govt. Once they have to make any concrete decisions the stand-off in the party will collapse. Hence not making concrete decisions. It's hardly rocket surgery.

Yes you do THM, though as always context is really useful there. The ROW has been negotiating those sort of deals based on the fact it's the only choice.

The main point remains though, a "Bespoke deal that ensures the best access for the UK" is as meaningless a statement as Brexit means Brexit and Red White and Blue Brexit, purely a soundbite.

UK is facing the fact that the EU won't move on it's key principles, it's up to the UK to now decide what it can live with and without and perhaps finalise discussions and get an agreement on payments to leave.

Anyway next up TM waffling on about some random crap and being very careful to avoid leaving any room behind her back - expect extra metal and Boris detectors to be in place and a few back benchers to drop some grenades while she is out of town.

So we come back to the idea that it's a negotiation !

Yes, between factions in the Tory party.

They are not even talking!

They are talking - just via the papers, it does appear internal tory politics seem to be a massive problem here.
Go on any bets that May will say anything other than meaningless soundbites? She is finished at conference if she upsets either side.

They always do themselves in over Europe (I may have also said that before 🙁 )

This is merely another example of Tory self destruction

She "may" try to indicate that she is taking a more central role. That "may" also be positive because ultimately May, Macron and Merkel need to sort this out but one if not two of those are preoccupied

Tick tock

I think the term "haggling" fits better. May would have had a better chance of getting the house if she'd but her offer in a sealed envelope rather than shouting her bid from the roof tops.

Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one Switzerland has? No one. Bespoke.
Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one Norway has? No one. Bespoke.
Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one Turkey has? No one. Bespoke.
Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one Canada has? No one. Bespoke.
Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one South Korea has? No one. Bespoke.
Any deal we get, beyond "no deal", but no longer being a member, will be a unique bespoke deal for us.
May and her unless band need to decide if they are looking to move to a limited FTA, or something more akin to EEA.

And I'm ignoring the fact that we already have a bespoke deal that serves us and them very well.

[i]Apologies to all those that have pointed this out so many, many times on this and many, many previous pages.[/i]

So ANY deal, from the minimum required to stop food rotting in ports, to asking for agreement to stop or the delay the A50 process, is a "bespoke deal".

[b]A bespoke deal is a bespoke deal.[/b]

Negotiation - where one side demands things it knows the other side is not in a position to offer and the other makes it clear it can not offer those things.

See also: stalemate

I hope you’re right THM and there is some intelligent stuff behind the scenes - little sign of it so far.

[quote=Edukator ]I think the term "haggling" fits better. May would have had a better chance of getting the house if she'd but her offer in a sealed envelope rather than shouting her bid from the roof tops whist screaming no house is better than a bad house

FTFY

[url= http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/mitch-benn-winning-1-5196518 ]It's not over 'til Montserrat Cabale's had a warble.[/url]

Odd that so many people are currently in the process of negotiating one. How absurd is that?

I thought that until NI / exit bill/ EU citizens rights were agreed, no (trade / full Brexit) negotiations would happen?

This is merely another example of Tory self destruction

Every cloud & all that!

😆

From Woppits link:

The Brexiteers perverted democracy last June by bombarding the voters with lies and knowingly false promises and they’ve been running and hiding from “democracy” ever since. And now, as the lies are exposed, their case lies in tatters and whatever victory they won is left hollow, all they have left is insults, and moaning. So. Much. Moaning.

So, for all that we successfully “reclaimed” it quite early on in proceedings I’ve decided I’m not going to use the word “Remoaner” any more, not even ironically. We’re REMAINERS. We’re not whining. We’re winning.

The dexeu White paper on science was particularly disappointing, there's no way we can get back the input we had in Horizon 2020, going from the most influential partner to a non voting associate.

There's nothing that the gov have produced so far to change my view that Brexit is an exercise in anti-intellectualism and regressive and damaging for the UK.

Instead of doing something to mitigate the damage, the government are busy squabbling amongst themselves for the sake of their own egos.

https://www.newscientist.com/section/news/

Guy tells RTÉ so far he hasn't seen workable solution to border problem put forward by UK side.

[i]TICK[/i]

He can imagine NI being in a customs union and single market but it's [i]up to the UK[/i] to develop a unique solution.

[i]TOCK[/i]

'Full and humiliating climb-down', please!

It's time to call this whole thing off, isn't it?

Humiliating? Well, when you actively put yourself in a position to be humiliated you can't really complain when it happens.

But what about the 51.9% of people who voted that voted for Brexit?

Easy. Ignore them. Again - if you deserve to be ignored........

In the meantime tick...tock...tick...tock...

We could just stop this nonsense now, save ourselves a lot of bother (and decades of impoverishment) and what is the price? Well-earned ridicule. I'll take that.

Worth a read from Todays Guardian regarding the cloud-cuckoo land Boris and his chums are inhabiting

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/20/saboteurs-tory-hard-brexit-eu-boris-johnson-theresa-may ]The real saboteurs are the Tory fantasists backing a hard Brexit[/url]

[i]Some Tories have moved on from the question of what needs doing – the referendum answered that with the single word “leave” – and are applying themselves to the problem of how it might be done: how to protect industries that rely on the single market; how to organise the Irish border; how to support agriculture without EU subsidy. Others shrink from that challenge. They find comfort in the saccharine simplicity of restating the original cause. “Hard” Brexit is the place to which some Tories retreat to avoid getting their hands dirty with compromise. If things go wrong, they can blame the pragmatists for sullying the dream.[/i]

Ok it's the guardian but nonetheless that is a very shallow piece of analysis and lazy journalism

I don't agree with Brexshiteers let alone hard ones. Nonetheless it's always worth trying to understand their position if only to prepare for a worst case secenario. There are some very able minds on their side in addition to the rabid ones. They have produced some work that challenges much of the accepted narrative which is always a good thing. Hence dismissing this as saccharine simplicity is remarkable naive - even for the remoan rag

teamhurtmore - Member
Ok it's the guardian but nonetheless that is a very shallow piece of analysis and lazy journalism

I don't agree with Brexshiteers let alone hard ones. Nonetheless it's always worth trying to understand their position if only to prepare for a worst case secenario. There are some very able minds on their side in addition to the rabid ones. They have produced some work that challenges much of the accepted narrative which is always a good thing. Hence dismissing this as saccharine simplicity is remarkable naive - even for the remoan rag

POSTED 54 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Yeah, but it's still going to be a ****ing disaster.

Leku - Member

Odd that so many people are currently in the process of negotiating one. How absurd is that?

I thought that until NI / exit bill/ EU citizens rights were agreed, no (trade / full Brexit) negotiations would happen?

correct. And May and co have wasted so much time there is now zero chance of getting a bespoke deal

The EU will not even consider anything on trade until those 3 things have been sorted. As at lest one of them is insoluble then thats it. No trade deal

Maybot and co also have hardly anyone with the expertise to even try to reach a deal

If there are so many able minds working on it, why haven't any of them presented a plausible solution to the Irish problem?

Oh good some brinkmanship. Who will blink first?

Tough question ?

It was you THM. 8)

Que?

You answered your own who will blink post.

Sorry, facetious I know.

If there are so many able minds working on it, why haven't any of them presented a plausible solution to the Irish problem?

Because the politicians are both dim and deluded as well as the fact there is no solution that satisfies the Eire government, The EU, the DUP, and the tories lunatic fringe

Because the politicians are both dim and deluded as well as the fact there is no solution that satisfies the Eire government,

So here's an idea. Why not make finding a solution a prequisite fior starting proper negotiations?. Why has everyone tihought of that already?

TM should go for the jugular this week and demand a "jobs first Brexshit"

That will teach 'em

Why not make finding a solution a prequisite fior starting proper negotiations?

Stop it with the sensible suggestions. Given that there appear to be enough idealogues on both sides, I reckon we've got about this >.< much chance of that happening.

❓

teamhurtmore - Member
Oh good some brinkmanship. Who will blink first?

As Mike said.

There is no brinkmanship from the EU here. They have a sensible and predictable position that they have stuck to from day one. Whereas may and co started from a ridiculous premise ( have our cake and eat it) and have no clear of coherent position on any issue.

Well hopefully the UK as they are bluffing, no plan, no solutions & no hope really.

That doesn't sound good

the EU and Ireland are completely right to point out flaws in these and reject inappropriate solutions.

How can they reject something that doesn't exist?

They have a sensible and predictable position that they have stuck to from day one

Quite. Avoid negotiations on substantive issues. Box U.K. Into a corner. Do what they always do. Only this time it's far, far riskier. Who will blink first ?

very insightful THM as always there, maybe grab a coffee first...

Perhaps if you didn't selectivly quote to remove context the statement would have made sense (like I wrote it) they are free to reject, comment and all the rest on anything the UK puts foward (in the future so it doesn't have to exist right now but it better had do soon - the UK is running out of time and not delivering anything near what it needs to in time for a decent discussion and negotiation - like the person who send you a report for review 2mins before it needs issued.)

very insightful THM as always there, maybe grab a coffee first...

Thank you x2 but there's enough froth already so will pass on the coffee.

Perhaps if you didn't selectivly quote to remove context the statement would have made sense

Perhaps .. but you did contradict yourself would you like cappuccino, latte or Americano?

they are free to reject, comment and all the rest on anything the UK puts forward

They are. Let's hope they are not waiting too long. When do you think the UK might have something to discuss?

the UK is running out of time and not delivering anything near what it needs to in time for a decent discussion and negotiation

You missed "and the EU" but otherwise reasonably accurate