[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

making "it's world" a worse place.

You what?

IMO the EU has F-ed up pretty much everything it has got it's hands on making "it's world" a worse place

When EU member states work alone there are problems - see the refugee crisis caused by the Arab Spring and pick and choose involvement from countries. It was a time for the EU to work together not run apart

Ideally greater intervention yes but without the €

If only we had that - errr 😉

So Junker makes a speech yesterday outlining his plans for the future of the EU which include a new EU president of both commission and parliament, a new finance minister with increased powers over national governments, all member states will have to adopt the euro, an increase in the Schengen area and a fully functioning EU army by 2025. All this to be achieved without any new treaties and by qualified majority voting further distancing itself from any sort of democratic mandate from the people of the EU.

Despite how you all voted in the EU referendum last year there is no way on gods earth that the majority of British people would accept this. Junker has just put a dagger through the heart of any attempts at a second EU referendum or membership via the back door. Junker is a Brexiter and good for him.

I actually quite like the idea of a single European state in principle.
The practice might be difficult to work out, but as a Scot I've grown up understanding the benefits of restricting patriotism to sports fields.
Good luck to them. I wish them well.

The practice might be difficult to work out, but as a Scot I've grown up understanding the benefits of restricting patriotism to sports fields.

Interesting. The Scots have been a nation as part of a wider state for a long time, they've had time to get used to it. Possibly reflected in the EU vote. Seems the English are the Jingoistic ones. I reckon the Welsh vote was an anomaly in that score though - possibly something to do with the number of farmers, and probably concerns about tariffs on foreign steel or heavy industry.

Moly - I wouldn't say I spoke for all Scots.
45% of them reckoned they could do without the UK - although there was some sleight of hand over swapping Westminster for Brussels in that so the 45% isn't reliable.

So Junker makes a speech yesterday outlining his plans for the future of the EU

So will he be able to get what he wants without opposition?

igm - Member
I actually quite like the idea of a single European state in principle.

works for america !

Also China, Russia, Germany, Spain...

All this to be achieved without any new treaties and by qualified majority voting further distancing itself from any sort of democratic mandate from the people of the EU.

Of course it wont happen, it has to be approved by every member state & scrutinised by the European parliament, senior EU officials have also said it would require a treaty change

http://www.politico.eu/article/jean-claude-juncker-donald-tusk-commission-european-council-one-president-proposal-draws-few-cheers/

kent - it all sounds very much like Vote Leave using the Turkey lies

I actually quite like the idea of a single European state in principle.

I'd live with it. After all, what's Farage's hallowed "nation state" ever done for the 99%? Apart from, of course, leave our dismembered body parts distributed across battlefields.

Never again, eh?

Time to move on I think.

can someone explain something to me as I am a politics noob.

Why does Nigel Farage represent the UK in the EU parliament?

Why does Nigel Farage represent the UK in the EU parliament?

He doesn't.

He is one of 10 MEPs that represent South East England, and one of 73 from the UK. He has no primacy over the others.

MEP elections are done on a proportional representation system.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/your-meps/uk_meps.html

He is one of 10 MEPs that represent South East England, and one of 73 from the UK. He has no primacy over the others.

Apart from the fact that he is a co-chair of one of the European Parliamentary Groupings, which means he is called to speak in that capacity.

works for america !

or does it ?

broadly, yes it does.

So will he be able to get what he wants without opposition?

There will be opposition but history has demonstrated nothing will get in the way to the drive for more Europe see the constitution rebadged as the Lisbon treaty, the Irish referendum and more recently the Dutch referendum on visa free travel from Ukraine etc, all ignored.

Dennis Skinner called this right: "I will vote Leave because the EU will fail" ultimately the EU will fail not because of economic reasons see rampant youth unemployment, not because of the insistence that countries take uneconomic migrants from vastly different cultures with poor educational standards, not because the Germans will never agree to fiscal transfers (although the euro has been largely beneficial to the Germans in keeping their currency in check ergo their manufacturing competitive), not because the open borders have vastly increased the risk of terrorist atrocities but because the European citizens do not want it to become a federal superstate. It may not happen yet but it is inevitable.

because the European citizens do not want it to become a federal superstate

It won't happen if the citizens really don't want it.

It won't happen if the citizens really don't want it.

History suggests otherwise.

I have nothing useful to say but do wonder:

if this thread gets to 1000 pages, will the internet break?

Dennis Skinner called this right: "I will vote Leave because the EU will fail"

I find this the oddest statement.

We're human beings, give it a long enough view (not that long!) and all is temporary, everything fails, and we're all dead soon enough.

But is it the right direction to be travelling in? (yes!) Is it better than what came before? (yes!)

We should get off the bus because one day the bus will be obsolete?

It may not happen yet but it is inevitable.

when next year?
10 years
100 years?

thats a ludicrous position to take, weve heard many times that the EU is about to disintegrate at any minute-
confident predictions of the brexit domino effect where populist movements will cause its downfall, wilders lepenn,etc & whever else putin is funneling cash too

maybe there will be a huge surprise in the german elections and Merkel will be replaced with farages (definitely not nazi) mates....... or maybe not

The EU wil outlast Dennis Skinner or Farage for that matter

yes kimbers, that's bizarre too.

makecoldplayhistory - Member

I have nothing useful to say but do wonder:

if this thread gets to 1000 pages, will the internet break?

I think this thread is highly compressible....

works for america !

After a Civil War

History suggests otherwise.

What @mefty says. French vote againat an EU Constitution in a Referendum and we all get one via the back door in the Lisbon Treaty

Much Brexit blogging today about how Junker has made it cyrstal clear the vision for Europe is a Superstate

@kimbers well the two options are an EU Superstate or Disintegration. I don't want to be involved in either

I think this thread is highly compressible....

🙂

As for 1000 pages this is the second EU thread, I started one immediately after the 2015 GE looking forward to the promised referendum.

After a Civil War

Followed by abolition of slavery, 150 years of peace within the borders and a rise to world dominance.

Jamba you are plainly an intelligent man, which leads me to believe you don't really believe much of what you write. Perhaps Brexit suits your personal circumstances (you're less exposed than many it seems so have leeway to indulge it) and you're just seeing how far the misinformed and mistaken will follow you.

when next year?
10 years
100 years?

thats a ludicrous position to take, weve heard many times that the EU is about to disintegrate at any minute-
confident predictions of the brexit domino effect where populist movements will cause its downfall, wilders lepenn,etc & whever else putin is funneling cash too

maybe there will be a huge surprise in the german elections and Merkel will be replaced with farages (definitely not nazi) mates....... or maybe not

The EU wil outlast Dennis Skinner or Farage for that matter

Everything that Juncker said in his speech yesterday was everything that the remain side said during the ref campaign would not happen, Nick Clegg even went as far as to say to Farage the idea of an EU Army was a "Dangerous Fantasy". Well it is not they will try and push this through against the will of the European people.

Le Pen and Wilders I didn't bet on them for good reasons, I did bet on Brexit and Trump and won a substantial amount of money (easy to call when you read between the lines) I'd bet on the EU failing in the next ten years.

kent, how do you define fail?

Junker has made it cyrstal clear the vision for Europe is a Superstate

[i]in his opinion/his vision[/i]

you of all people should understand people voicing their opinions?

(& for that matter how do you know what is the will of the 'European people'?)

I reckon Jam is simply disingenuous. He is anti-EU on a basic personal level, and then unconsciously he selectively views everything through that filter. He sees what he wants to see. As do most of us, to be fair, but he seems particularly bad at it 🙂

kent, how do you define fail?

It will collapse much like the Soviet Union did.

I actually quite like the idea of a single European state in principle.

It will collapse much like the Soviet Union did.

And in the same way the majority will be shafted and a few will gain huge sums of wealth. Now you see why those who support Brexit are so keen to seen the EU fail. It is a sure fire way of making money at the expense of the majority.

Dennis Skinner called this right: "I will vote Leave because the EU will fail"

How's that eurogeddon fund coming along?

He is anti-EU on a basic personal level

As are most of the leave voters who were not fooled by the BS or want foreigners out at any cost. Nobody would be leaving for the greater good of the average person.

It is why even after so many pages nothing has been gained on this thread. Some people simply don't care about others and any amount of discussion won't make them. Would have made it quicker if they just said that at the start though...

I think that if the EU fails, it will sadly be due to rampant nationalism.

And in the same way the majority will be shafted and a few will gain huge sums of wealth. Now you see why those who support Brexit are so keen to seen the EU fail. It is a sure fire way of making money at the expense of the majority.

Maybe, from my personal point of view I'd rather it would not collapse in chaos as that will be a disaster for normal people. I'd much rather we all agreed that the way in which it is headed cannot be allowed to continue and it reverts back to a trading and cooperation arrangement. The die is cast unfortunately it will be federal Europe or nothing, chaos it will be.

And in the same way the majority will be shafted and a few will gain huge sums of wealth.

So far we've had all leave voters are:
Stupid
Racist
Xenophobic
Selfish

Who's gonna break out the big guns and drop the P-bomb on all leavers? 😆

It is amusing that we have so quickly gone from the idea of an EU superstate being the product of fervent paranoia, to welcoming it with open arms.
It's much the same as the argument about individual member states not being controlled by Brussels, until they do interfere. Then it's for the best anyway. 🙂

So far we've had all leave voters are:
Stupid
Racist
Xenophobic
Selfish

yep - it looks like the a lot of people on here as as stupid and intolerant as the groups they are trying to put the leave voters into...

Stupid
Racist
Xenophobic
Selfish

Add serial liar, closet Brexiter and plain ignorant and you cover profiles of leavers on this thread. (add a smiley if you wish, that's another thing leavers do when they come out with offensive stuff in the above categories). This one 😀 ?

You really are a horrid person.

The die is cast unfortunately it will be federal Europe or nothing, chaos it will be.

Don't be silly.

It will evolve, it has to. Leavers are always stating that the big powerful countries are moulding it to what they want. Well, if it diverges from what their people can support, they will change it.