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People smuggling, and border guard bribing? Is that what you mean?TJ I was just pointing out that laws and treaties can exist but the "on the ground" policing can show flexibility, same with the sailing example.
I think that's what I said. It didn't cut through. No workable proposals were laid out by anyone, and sizeable chunk of the population just did not, and still do not care, about what happens in Ireland, or elsewhere in Europe.Kelvin well we've had the Referendum as won so the Irish border can't have the impact the currency question had in Scotland
They did get involved. They said stay in the EU. What will they propose now? That the border can be kept open if we carry on much as we were before? Norway+ here we come… FoM and all.…If the UK and EU can't reach an agreement then I have no doubt the French, Germans and even the US will get directly involved and bang heads together.
Something to annoy everyone …
[b][i]“We expect the EU to offer a choice between a close relationship in which the UK can participate in the single market and customs union but will be bound by the EU rules of the game, and an arm's length relationship in the UK, in which the UK achieves full sovereignty over borders, courts and laws, but does not participate in the single market and the customs union.”[/i][/b]
Having watched the Arte programme I hope they make an English version and get it out on a British channel or DVD. Excellent.
Jamba - its still nonsense. Want out of the EU then we must have a hard border as must the EU. Its as simple as that. Otherwise smuggling of people and goods has an obvious route.
What's there to get annoyed at in MS pushing a no deal scenario to support their recommendations?
Irish border can't have the impact the currency question had in Scotland. If the UK and EU can't reach an agreement then I have no doubt the French, Germans and even the US will get directly involved and bang heads together.
Lol, a soft NI/Irish border would make it a tax dodge heaven on imports the EU wouldn't care, the US less so, it would only hurt UK import tax revenue.
We have to move from an imaginary cake and eat it scenerio to something else… and I wouldn't be surprised if the main political parties actual start to move in opposite directions… they can't both stay where they are. Corbyn might well see an opportunity and let his party move towards the first option… where as there are plenty on May's benches, and in her cabinet, openly saying they can cope with the second option. The political upheaval that MS are signalling could easily follow on from that.What's there to get annoyed at in MS pushing a no deal scenario to support their recommendations?
If there is no solution to the Irish birder, why are the EU insisting on finding it before moving on to the crux of the debate and why did we accept the agenda? How very odd.
Are you suggesting that they are essentially in the same place at the moment kelvin? Are you also suggesting that a party led by [s]a conviction politician[/s] old Jezza might not stand by its commitment to voters?
There is a solution, and it means the NI operating inside the SM&CU.
If there is a solution, why have the greatest minds available in the govt failed to come up with it yet?
How very odd.
It's not odd, it's a problem the UK created, EU know damn well there's no solution, well there is and that's to have an uncontrolled border that the UK government could never stomach after all the grandstanding about taking back control of our own borders.
It's a UK problem the UK has responsibility to solve.
Roflcopter!
Because it means making a political decision, for which there in no consensus, inside or outside of government. See the first option that MS highlighted in that piece above. Simple. Currently unacceptable to the people May needs to keep onside to stay in power.If there is a solution, why have the greatest minds available in the govt failed to come up with it yet?
Have you lot figured out a way to stop it yet?
Nope, but not about to pretend that it shouldn't be stopped.
All us remain folk just need to relax, few if any of us will suffer that much.
Sit back maybe cash a few ISAs and buy a few decent bottles of wine, enjoy the Nemesis simply roll out...
Said it before some lessons have to be learned the hard way.
Example 1. Farmers (who voted Brexit on mass) will suffer via subsidies and lack of cheap labour.
Example 2. Working Poor will pay much more for the things that keep them alive.
Example 3. The unemployed will have a raft of veg picking jobs to choose from.
I could go on but my cheese board and Merlot is calling.
It's the natural order of things, evolution of the species...
thecaptain - MemberIf there is a solution, why have the greatest minds available in the govt failed to come up with it yet?
Because they don't like the solutions available which are
1) give NI special status to remain in the single market and put the hard border in the Irish sea - DUP won't stand for that.
2) Give NI to Eire - can you imagine the apoplexy?
3) Put a hard border beetween Eire and NI - a breach of the peace agreements and would somewhat upset the nationalists
May and co. put themselves into this political check/mate long before they even started to think they should be thinking about practicalities.
937 pages of the finest minds of Singletrack and where are we!
At the beginning… multiple contradictory versions of life outside the EU, all of which the majority of people are against, many of which require other counties to do as they're told.
Well I think most of us have long since realised it's a complete bit of a mess that should have been abandoned long ago.
But as things are, I'm mostly just sitting back and enjoying the show. If the Tories make themselves unelectable for a generation then that's a bonus.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]If there is no solution to the Irish birder
I think I agree with you, and we both agree with TJ - because what you presumably mean is that there is no solution which is actually acceptable to all parties and wouldn't be likely to result in a resurrection of violence.
why are the EU insisting on finding it before moving on to the crux of the debate
Are you suggesting they should just ignore it and hope it goes away? It might not be what excites the Brexiteers, but for the EU it is part of the crux of the debate.
We have a paradox here - fundamentally this is a problem which must be solved before Brexit happens, yet there is no possible solution to it. Even the "no deal" scenario doesn't provide a solution, because that just results in TJ's option 3 which breaches the peace agreements. I wonder what we could possibly do to avoid the problem?
why are the EU insisting on finding it before moving on to the crux of the debate
Because its one of the 3 key things that need to be settled first by any logical standard. Its one of the most critical aspects
tjagain - MemberBecause they don't like the solutions available which are
1) give NI special status to remain in the single market and put the hard border in the Irish sea - DUP won't stand for that.
2) Give NI to Eire - can you imagine the apoplexy?
3) Put a hard border beetween Eire and NI - a breach of the peace agreements and would somewhat upset the nationalists
You missed an option:
4) Come up with a fudge with hand-wavey talk of "frictionless borders" and hope that no-one notices. Don't look behind the curtain.
Suggestion : we stop saying "possible solution" and say instead "acceptable solution"?yet there is no possible solution to it.
5) pretend that lax haphazard policing of a border is the same as no border
937 pages of the finest minds of Singletrack and where are we!
A lot better informed than at the start.
I'm more aware of how much being in the EU has contributed to the development of member states and in some cases brought them from almost feudal states to modern economies. The UK has benefitted more than most from inward investment as a low tax English-speaking zone with full access to EU markets. The down side being that oil money has invaded the country so a lot is now foreign owned.
I knew the City was the most important trading platform on the planet but hadn't realised how much it depended on a special tax régime within the UK and how much tax evasion it facilitated. If it were excluded from the EU I think this would be a good thing for the EU.
That London has benefitted enormously from the migration of the world's financial expertise to the City and Canary Warf to become a centre of excellence within the EU.
That the UK is highly dependent on the importation of foodstuffs and energy. So much so that a low pound is a real problem for the working poor even if the rest of the economy can adapt to exchange rate changes.
That the country is even more of an oligarchy than I realised with a few rich people with the same backgrounds pulling the string behind the scenes and manipulating a gullible population through control of the media and sold-out politicians.
I may add more later.
It's a UK problem
😯 or 😉
No aracer. It's obvious why the EU have put 2/3 first conditions up front. As always it's to prevent proper negations from starrting. That is their modus operandi.
we should not ignore it, but we should reject the EUs BS agenda.
But they are winning the media war and their false narrative is being swallowed by the uncritical of thought
If you are trying to get a win win situation it's totally ILLOGICAL to put the current agenda up for consideration
A lot better informed than at the start.
Could you give some examples?
He said 'illogical' in caps, people.
That means it's super important!
Hey, you are getting it now.
It's obvious why the EU have put 2/3 first conditions up front. As always it's to prevent proper negations from starrting. That is their modus operandi.
Hang on - are you seriously criticising the EU for protecting their interests? Pretty obvious thing for them to do no? Of course we have incompatible positions, that's why it's such a bloody stupid idea. Making instant adversaries out of allies. How utterly pointless.
Given the importance of the issue and the vast abuse of power being proposed it's good to see a packed HoC debating with vigour and authority
Setting an excellent example of how they expect to manage the whole process. Good for them, The whips must have been busy.
Those 3 things are the most important issues - thats why they are first and the EU negotiators knew they would be difficult so want them done first so as to get a solution.
Note the EU had its postions in place before May was even prime minister and have stuck to these positions unlike the brit side who don't actually know what they are doing and keep on promising impossible things
No I am critical of our government and the public for swallowing it.
The EU have lots to lose. They should be trying to negotiate instead of avoid it.
But it's Mary, mungo and midge that matter not their lackeys
So the EU is essentially a free trade zone based in four freedoms. A major changing is taking place between the major players in the trade. So the priority for negotiation is [s]future trade regimes[/s] where ae we going to get our money from?
Well I think most of us have long since realised it's a complete bit of a mess that should have been abandoned long ago.
You have summed up my thoughts on the EU 8)
EU negotiating team holes to push UK into remaining in single market/eea/Customs union via Norway type deal as the "only" solution the NI border issue.
TJ no point smuggling people and goods into NI as you still have to get them to the mainland, would be just as simple to go direct. NI itself is too small a market to be overly worried about lost duties etc.
@Edukator interesting comment on tax, in 2006 (admitedly the peak) tax and national insurance on City bonuses alone raised £10bn. That's down to £4bn now but still a lot of money. Then of course there are all the supporting jobs and corporate tax. London's Finance is hardly Apple in Ireland or Amazon/Starbucks in Luxembourg is it when it comes to tax incentives.
I see the predictions of economic gloom from the Remainers continue.
THM - if the Irish birder (I too use a phone for this website so I am showing solidarity) is a virtually impossible task, then you can go early on it and fail at the start or go late and fail at the end. 50:50 but I'd go early.
And if there is special status for NI then I know the next of the countries in the UK that will be queuing for special status. The (Westminster) Tories can probably do without that.
[quote=jambalaya ]EU negotiating team holes to push UK into remaining in single market/eea/Customs union via Norway type deal as the "only" solution the NI border issue.
Presumably you're going to suggest the alternative solution?
I see the predictions of economic gloom from the Remainers continue.
Jamba - not really predictions any more are they? Death by a thousand cuts.
The EU have lots to lose. They should be trying to negotiate instead of avoid it.
Indeed, however too much vested interest in Brussels, gray train protection excersize. They care kess about economic prosperity in the member states. Also trying to head off the mother of all budget disputes "east v west" "givers v takers". France and Germany have been preocupied with domestoc elections so have passed the buck. Temporarily I would wager. As per the Politco prediction I think the EU will go no where with negotiatins until there is a crises summit in Sep 2018 at which France and Germany will come up with a deal.
You have summed up my thoughts on the EU
The thing is that it's more than just a trade arrangement. There's an underlying ideal underneath it. And it's a positive one. If it's not working, then fix it, don't abandon it.
unlike the brit side who don't actually know what they are doing and keep on promising impossible things
Don't speak too soon, I'm sure our highly experienced team of ruthless negotiators will ramp up the swinging and sucking of the the arms of thier varifocal glasses any time now.
And if there is special status for NI then I know the next of the countries in the UK that will be queuing for special status. The (Westminster) Tories can probably do without that
Yes but even their mega-BS couldn't hide the lack of a border with an EU state, one of their spokeswoman has managed four cliches in one senatance and without stopping for a breath in the debate now. No wonder the crowds have left the house. She is winning the speed reading contest though.. Poor people of Livingstone. She gave way for 20 seconds but is off again now.
We tried to fix it @molgrips but the EU is determind to move in the opposite direction. As May said we should leave and just let them get on with that. The EU have fou d us awkward bedfellows holding the superstate project back. Well no longer.
In other news Poland is looking to claim just shy of a Trillion euros in second world war reparations from Germany, something supported by 63% of Poles
Jamba - not really predictions any more are they? Death by a thousand cutS
The news is overwhelming positive, pro Brexit.