[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Like I said, at this point its just meaningless showboating, and playing to the gallery

Yes I agree. All reflects badly on Labour, Starmer and Corbyn though.

Right Jamba - so you have no answer? You really think brexiteers would accept no border so migrants can just stroll into the UK? Even your beloved Tories accept the need for some sort of customs control - its just they want to do it with fairy dust.

Its not the EU imposing a border BTW - its the UK

meaningless showboating and playing to the gallery

It's tough keeping up with you Binns, a few pages ago you were all for parliamentary process even if it is just rubber stamping existing laws. I guess consistency is not one of your priorities 😉

As WF comments later, we are talking (largely) about how to integrate existing EU Law, which one would assume the 48 are strongly in favour of - into UK law with the minimum disruption and delay. That you don't agree that we should protect their interests says a lot about you. A lot.

I have absolute faith in May to screw the country the interests of survival. An act with out incredibly tight bounds has no place in the UK. As a tory apologist i suspect you find it hard to believe that most people in the UK view the tories with varying levels of suspicion and hatred.

ts we would have scrapped brexit long ago.

Ignoring the 52. Says even more about you.... 😉

As a tory apologist

You missed out nazi 😉

All reflects badly on Labour, Starmer and Corbyn though.

For you, maybe. For those who are actually concerned about democracy, accountability and not having a government behaving like medieval monarchs, it makes perfect sense for the Labour party to take the stance they are.

The fact that none of them will vote against it tells you more about the present state of the Tory party, and how far to the authoritarian hard right it has traveled

Whichever way you try and spin it, its an affront to democracy, and should simply not be happening

Jezza's back this morning talking about membership of the Single Market again. He flip flops more than you Binners!!!
But apparently the party hasn't changes it position - true, it's still CONFUSED and INCONSISTENT

I'd rather have inconsistent than unhinged

If the EU impose a border on Ireland that's their choice. We are NOT obliged to come up with a solution which meets their every whim,

It's not a question of "want", though, from either side. My understanding is that WTO rules (remember them?)require that no trading partner can be given better terms than another (the so-called 'most favoured nation' principle). After Brexit, the UK simply [u]cannot[/u] have an open border with the EU unless it also opens its borders with all other countries. Similarly, the EU would need to have an open border policy with all other countries as soon as it has an open border with us.

So unless we all also leave the WTO, what you suggest is simply impossible.

I think you might have over-simplified there PhilO.
But, no, I don't see how the borderless border idea can be made to work either.

teamhurtmore - Member
Jezza's back this morning talking about membership of the Single Market again. He flip flops more than you Binners!!!
But apparently the party hasn't changes it position - true, it's still CONFUSED and INCONSISTENT

its called constructive ambiguity 😆 THM and its how you outsmart your opponents into backing a hard brexishambles, whilst keeping the divided electorate happy

once in power you have to dissapoint someone or more likely, everyone...

Amazing how people, indeed how many people fall for it. Did Jezza learn from the Brexshiteers after all. Like them he is certainly much better than the Tories at manipulating social media.

Over simplification? Quite possibly. It's impossible to discuss international law without simplification! 😉 IANAL, and it's a subject that last came up in lectures about 15 years ago, so my understanding will certainly be imperfect.

However, it's a point which was made by an ex- Irish Tisioch (sp?) in a radio interview a couple of weeks ago, and I assume he'd be more up-to-date than I.

Than me ( sorry )

Based on a Tweet from Sky News Corbyn's position is identical to that of May's. Exit THE single market, retain tariff free access via a custom negotiated deal ?

Labour insists the party's position has not changed

Eaerlier, Jeremy Corbyn said he wanted the UK to continue to "trade within the single market" and said it was "open for discussion" whether this should involve formal membership.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's World at One, Mr Corbyn said: "We want a relationship which allows us to trade within the single market."

"Whether that's formal membership - which is only possible, I believe, if you are actually a member of the EU - or whether it's an agreed trading relationship, is open for discussion."

A spokesman said: "We won't be 'members' of the single market after the transition.

"We want to achieve full tariff-free access to the single market. That could be achieved by a new relationship with the single market or a bespoke trade deal with the EU."

@PhilO no officially it would not be an open border with the EU, just in Northern Ireland there would be very very "lax" checks. Tariffs would still be due. Anyway this was just my last resort option if the EU refuse to agree anything

Earlier poster taked about not seeing UK customs posts being built in Dover. That's because they are already in Calais at the Eurotunnel / Ferry terminal, no ? We pass through UK customs in France every trip - we also provide API for UK->France and I assume post Brexit we'll do that for France->UK. If France wishes to cancel the Le Touquet agreement then we'll have the customs in Dover/Folkstone with API/VISA checks in France as per the Airline model

His interview said he was fine with a norway option

just more constructive ambuigty to let the tories skewer themselves and own their hard brexishambles

🙂

"Whether that's formal membership - which is only possible, I believe, if you are actually a member of the EU - or whether it's an agreed trading relationship, is open for discussion."

Hehe.. yes, constructive ambiguity is a good word for it. The boy's learning fast isn't he? Not stupid.

Jamba - really you are so far detached from reality over the NI border. ITS THE UK putting the border in because of leaving the EU - are you really happy with an open border? No one politically is. There has to be a hard border or we don't leave the EU.

A commentator on Tageschau was asked about Britain's threat to become a tax haven. He replied that's what Britain already was so it wouldn't make any difference. Who says the German's don't have sense of humour?

Jamba - Corbyn's words were quite interesting (I heard them direct rather than via a tweet) and he was open to remaining in the single market though not insisting on it.

THM - the only reason I posted it was the publication. If it had been in the Indy or Gruniad or even the Times it would have been uninteresting.

On the Irish border - leave it open then. I'd give it 5 minutes before right whingers anonymous are complaining about uncontolled migrants coming into Britain via it.

very good TV documentary on Britain saturday on ARTE ( french, german cultural channel ) .

I never realized quite how complicated the NI border is . There was a petrol station with the forecourt crossed by the border !

I watched the one on Germany the week before, Chris. Excellent. I'm watching the British one later on [url= http://www.tv-replay.fr/un-jour-au-royaume-uni/ ]Arte replay[/url]

Yes we saw he program too. To be honest I thought the walls dividing Catholic and Protestant areas had been taken down so it was a surprise to see them still there.

TJ no it really is not the UK creating this problem. We have said no border. The Common Travel Area existed before we joined the EEC. Every day the EU's conduct reminds me why we had to Leave. We will be so much better off outside

IGM its proposed all EU citizens will have 3-6 month tourist visas anyway. Checks can be carried out on those seeking work and API for travel to the mainland ? I think's it's managable. There will always be complainers

Jamba - thats utter nonsense and contradicted by May and company. There has to be a customs border either between NI and Eire or between the island of ireland and the UK.

this is a simple fact and incontrovertible. Common travel area does not mean no border!

Its the UK causing the problem and the UK that needs to find a solution. Trouble is Mays lot of numpties think they can manage a border with wishes and fairy dust and quite rightly have been called out for the nonsense this is my the Irish and the EU

Even the rabid brexiteers acknowledge there has to be a customs border.

If there is no customs boarder then its simply a route for tariff breaking and illegal immigrants

Will the Irish border be to brexshiteers what the currency was for the Scottish Gnats?

yes those walls were very humbling and scary .

i take it you saw the farmers worried about loosing their cheap EU labor ?

Ignoring all the Brexit Blair nonsense for a moment I though this segment on Conor McPherson's play featuring the music of Bob Dylan was the best thing on Andrew Marr

https://twitter.com/MarrShow/status/906860677037408259

IGM - I know, I was teasing 😉

The Common Travel Area existed before we joined the EEC.

Will the Irish border be to brexshiteers what the currency was for the Scottish Gnats?

teamhurtmore - Member
IGM - I know, I was teasing

Fair enough. I bit.

And to be fair the MoS has never been quite as Brextremist as the DM.

If there is no customs boarder then its simply a route for tariff breaking and illegal immigrants

No.... coz technology !

Im thinking it means this
[img] [/img]

Start with more basic technology kimbers.

They'll need to master levers, ramps and wheels first.

take it you saw the farmers worried about loosing their cheap EU labor ?

With my terrible French I must have missed that 😉 .... yes I did however IMO it will all be worked out, cheap/free short term work visas for agricultural labour (as long as they are not entitled to any in work benefits and they will need ehic cards for medical cover)

TJ I take your point however there really is no need to police it in a traditional border crossing / customs sense. In the many dozens of times I have sailed between UK and France I have only once ever been asked for any passport / customs info. In theory you are supposed to fly a special flag and report to customs on arrival. I don't even bother to take my passport these days, haven't done for 15 years

Yes, yes, that is exactly the experience of the average man in the street. It'll continue to be plain sailing for all of us I'm sure…

To avoid myopia taking over

in view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order

Who could say that kind of stuff? Flexible and imaginative, honestly 😉

So what you are saying Big J, is immigration and customs only applies to folk without their own boats?
😉

Jmba - and now its going to be very differnt when crossing the channel!

Why is there no need to police it? Have we no need to police the calais / dover border? Or every international airport?

I can't help laughing at Brexit tonight. I may get more morose if I have a beer later, but Davis et al are wonderful comedians and Brexies talking about legible and imaginative is comedy gold.

Corbyn's new flexibility as regards the Single Market is welcome, if muddled. Muddled seems to be relative at the moment…

don't forget [s]conviction politician[/s] opportunistic and misleading

teamhurtmore - Member

To avoid myopia taking over

in view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order

Who could say that kind of stuff? Flexible and imaginative, honestly

Presumably they meant imaginary. There simply can't be a hard border in Ireland without it being enforced militarily.

"The EU will be damaged if Britain crashes out of the EU, the way your suit is ruined with blood stains if the person standing next to you decides to shoot themselves in the foot."

Who's they jimjam?

TJ I was just pointing out that laws and treaties can exist but the "on the ground" policing can show flexibility, same with the sailing example. Kelvin well we've had the Referendum as won so the Irish border can't have the impact the currency question had in Scotland. If the UK and EU can't reach an agreement then I have no doubt the French, Germans and even the US will get directly involved and bang heads together.