[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

I think this thread is a fine example in miniature, of the complete and total nause-up produced by the gormless 52% of the UK voting population.

Carry on...

Apologies for the Mail link, but I wasn't expecting this...

http://www.****/news/article-4869276/The-big-Brexit-immigration-myth-monumental-deception.html

MoS not DM, but still made the MOnline

Democracy should not be subordinated for the sake of expediency

Especially when the expediency is partly due to the series of unforced errors that the leavers and May have forced on us

Rich of Davis to warn of chaos, when he was the genius behind the early election U-turn to secure a mandate for the Tory Brexishambles 🙂

An editor will be getting a kicking for letting that one through

An interesting read in the DM, thanks igm: I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the whole thing here:

"The negotiations to sever our links with the EU have turned nasty – and far worse is to come. It is tragic to watch and see the humiliation of our country as the tasty fruits of the Brexit promise are replaced by the sour grapes of the cold outside world.
The relationship between Brexit Secretary David Davis and his EU counterpart, Michel Barnier, has become strained to breaking point over the ‘divorce bill’ that we will have to pay before we can even start to discuss a trade deal.
This was, I’m afraid, entirely predictable: as the clock ticks ever louder towards our departure, the harsh realities of Brexit can no longer be concealed by our increasingly overstretched Government.

This was strikingly illustrated by the leak last week of Ministers’ plans to crack down on immigration after Brexit. Free movement of labour would end immediately and all but the most highly skilled EU workers deterred from coming to this country.
I fear the very social fabric of our caring society, health services and swathes of the public sector which depend on immigrant support could be destroyed if this happens.
There have to be controls on immigration across Europe. Free movement is under question and we should join a discussion that could follow on from the German elections.
The Brexit process is being driven by a highly organised group of politicians and journalists who, aware of the fragility of our negotiating position, are desperate to hide the consequences from the public.
They hope that they will not realise how disastrous this process is going to be until the EU Withdrawal Bill – paving the way for our exit – has successfully cleared Parliament.
That was the intended purpose of the recent General Election – to secure a sufficient majority to allow Brexit to be pushed through before the electorate could get its hands on the decision.

Even though that part of the plan backfired spectacularly, I believe that this represents a calculated deception of the British people on a monumental scale.
The referendum result of 2016 was driven by frustration over the freeze in living standards since 2008. This fed the anger over immigration, which has always been a ‘low hanging fruit’ for politicians: they can blame it for the pressure on public services, overcrowded estates – igniting prejudices in the process. This Government promised, but failed to deliver, a massive cut in immigration to lower than 100,000 a year.
But now, thanks to the Home Office leak, we have details of how they intend to achieve after Brexit what they patently failed to achieve before it. Promising to end European immigration is a popular political promise with the pain deferred to the longer term. The consequences will be felt largely after we leave. The figures are clear and simple.
Last year, a quarter of a million Europeans came here while only 117,000 left – a net inward immigration of 133,000. However, 264,000 non-Europeans came while 88,000 left, resulting in a net immigration of 176,000. No one is better acquainted with the problems this entails than the Prime Minister, who had the responsibility to control our borders for six years as Home Secretary. No European law or court can interfere with our sovereign right to control our borders to non-EU nationals. So why has so little been done over the years?

The answer, of course, is that the consequences are of such damage to our economy and social services that it is better to gain electoral advantage from the promise rather than risk the inevitable backlash when it is put into effect.
The public services need immigration – for example the NHS is short of 30,000 nurses, with numbers of EU staff collapsing since last year.
The private sector’s reaction to the leak was equally clear. The stark fact, in warnings from company after company, is that there is no alternative supply of skilled labour from our own population. The British Hospitality Association says that three-quarters of waiting staff in the UK are EU nationals – and at least 60,000 new EU workers are needed every year to fill vacancies. No wonder they describe these proposals as ‘catastrophic’ for their industry. It would take a decade to train up enough British workers to fill the gaps. The respected Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s world education comparisons have indicated that education standards in the UK, measured every three years, have failed to progress and highlighted concerns about the shortage of teachers.
There is another reason why the Government is more attracted by the promise of cutting immigration than by the implementation.
INTERNATIONAL Trade Secretary Liam Fox is travelling the world seeking markets to replace those lost in Europe by Brexit. Courtesies will be extended to any British Cabinet Minister – but behind not very closed doors a much less comfortable message will be conveyed.
British universities are going to be restrained in attracting overseas students upon whom their financial viability depends. How is that going to be greeted, for example, in India, which sends some of their brightest to learn here – often raising the standards of our students in the process? There is a simple solution. Students should be excluded from the immigration figures.
The anti-immigration argument may satisfy the anxieties of a domestic audience concerned for their own welfare, but how will it go down in some of the poorest countries on Earth – which we hope will open their doors and trade with us for our goods, while we cream off their skilled people to bolster our living standards?
An interesting poll published recently reveals that there has been little change in public opinion about Brexit since the referendum. There is one exception: public confidence in our negotiators is low.
Immediately after the referendum I wrote in this newspaper that it was essential for Brexiteers to be put in charge of the negotiations. Already the indications are from No 10 that Mrs May would like to move Boris Johnson and Liam Fox. The public have realised the inadequacies of the messengers. It is only a matter of time before they realise that the problems lay in the message.
As the autumn of Mrs May’s premiership creeps in, we should learn from the courage and vision of Winston Churchill in the 1930s and Harold Macmillan in the 1950s. Both told a reluctant Conservative Party what it did not want to hear. Where is tomorrow’s Conservative leader who can articulate Britain’s essential self-interest in Europe?"

He's right of course. He'll be ad-homed to death here later today, but this is pretty much bang on.

Also:

"Free movement is under question and we should join a discussion that could follow on from the German elections."

I think the much-trailed 'big announcement' on the 21st will be concerned with just this.

What's newsworthy there?

(Apart from source)

What's newsworthy there?

(Apart from source)

I think that the source of an article like that is very newsworthy.

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Compare with the headline. Can't possibly have the Brexshitters hearing the truth and realising how badly the negotiations are going.

Ask yourself why the truth can't be spoken, follow the money. Who wins from Brexit. As the Mail article points out the damage will take time to become clear. If you keep the proles distracted for long enough those who want brexit get to make their millions.

Just like the collapse of the soviet union, there is a fortune to be made at the expense of the majority.

Where is this fortune to be made? I've got some cash sitting about and wouldn't mind a piece of the action (as a hedge, basically).

Where is this fortune to be made? I've got some cash sitting about and wouldn't mind a piece of the action (as a hedge, basically).

If you have the money, chaos always offers opportunities to make money. People losing jobs gives someone the opportunity to buy houses cheap through distressed sales. You can buy UK companies cheaper now if you aren't buying in sterling. Opportunities come with de regulation, look at how well the UK arms industry has been doing recently selling into the middle east. Sterling deval has made our weapons cheaper....

The master of self-awareness David Davis has warned MPs not to vote against the bill today as this would lead to 'a chaotic Brexit'

Surely not? As opposed to the highly organised, competent, professional and slick Brexit you're presently undertaking, which is all going just great?

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Oh, well if I've got to wait for a housing crash, followed by (hopefully) some sort of recovery that's hardly the get rich(er) quick scheme I was hoping for.

Look for companies that are unethical - low wage payers who can't wait for deregulation, pollutters, arms companies - that sort of thing

Importers of chlorine washed 'murican chicken?

Look for companies that are well prepared for Brexit already (many are) and avoid those run by remoaners who have yet to respond to what is in front of them.

Ironically, Brexshit may delay the correction in the housing market. BoE is stuck between higher inflation and low real wage growth and vulnerability of U.K. Households and Corporates - will they, won't they raise rates soon??

avoid those run by remoaners who have yet to respond to what is in front of them.

who are these remoaners? i mean, our organisation stands to take a large hit on admin of import/export, but we're getting prepared for the worst, as far as we can, while rather hoping that the best outcome is coming.
anyone who is actually capable of running a profitable business will be preparing for the potential shit show.
the government on the other hand, well, they don't have to turn a profit, do they?
i don't see much coverage of new customs sheds going up in dover...

teamhurtmore - Member
Look for companies that are well prepared for Brexit already (many are) and avoid those run by remoaners who have yet to respond to what is in front of them.

For others what are they preparing for?
Do a lot of export? Move to the EU
Get new staff?
Prepare to cut as much as possible to make up for trade barriers?

NHS worker here. Without EU staff we cannot staff our wards. Thats not moaning - thats a fact.

I expect a large part of my customer base to go bust over the next few years, but really depends on how CAP is removed.

avoid the NHS

Contrary to what is often quoted here, I am not aware that the NHS has been privatised yet. Are the shares traded privately mike?

Ony the juicy bits THM!

I wonder if it will go as well as water privatisantion...

https://www.ft.com/content/2beee56a-9616-11e7-b83c-9588e51488a0

Perfect example of a business that needs [s]to pull it's socks up and get on with it[/s] clarity, plans and influence into the negotiations.
Does that make they crap?
Any time you feel like addressing how the NHS can cope going forward please chip in.

The same for most if not all - hence we need to get on with it; hence we need to delegate powers to ensure an efficient integration of EU laws into UK laws

Hey, it's all getting clear all of a sudden. Let's see if anybody choses to muddy the waters this afternoon in the village..,.

teamhurtmore - Member
The same for most if not all - hence we need to get on with it; hence we need to delegate powers to ensure an efficient integration of EU laws into UK laws

hence we need to delegate powers to ensure an efficient integration of EU laws into UK laws

No, we live in a parliamentary democracy and 48% of those who voted have an opinion. That you don't agree that they have a right to representation says something about you.

Personally i am more than a bit concerned that the election was not carried out in a fair manner, and that there should be real investigations into who funded who.

Hey, it's all getting clear all of a sudden

So you know what's going to happen to Ireland, how much Britain will pay to cover it share in EU debt, what 27 countries are prepared to agree to in terms of future relations. Do tell.

What I struggle to understand is why any of the EU laws that apply to the UK need to be scrutinised during the GRB. These are the laws we currently work to, and had we not chosen to Brexit, would continue to work to for the foreseeable. Sure there may be some (eg. regarding olive oil production or bananas!) which may not be relevant and can be simply dropped, but the rest can surely be adopted unchanged. If there is felt a need to amend or update them at a later date, then fine. We have a proven parliamentary system to do this. Nothing needs to change in the short term unless there are hidden agendas out there.

changes need to be made where EU bodies are referenced and/or used as final arbiters, such as the ECJ for instance.
the concern is that 'other' changes may get made, as you say, with some people having other agendas other than a straight forward copy/paste job.

@welshfarmer,

Take a look at most UK acts, they aren't self contained, but refer to amendments, to other acts, various standards. Some will look at Euro standards and ECJ rulings etc.

But, let the house burn while worrying about the paperwork. Screw the NHS, education, industry, just as long as May can get her snoopers charter in and get rid of the immigrants.

?Ireland? Anyone come up with a solution yet that does not involve a hard border or fairy dust?

?Ireland?

I am sure everyone is happy with that.

Don't you worry your pretty little head over any of this unimportant detail

Creme de Menthe?

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Nothing needs to change in the short term unless there are hidden agendas out there.

+1.

Not really that hidden an agenda really, is it?

Just take a look at the right-wing nutjobs presently steering Tory policy.

They get to use their newly granted, totally undemocratic executive powers to royally **** us all over in manners that would no way have stood up to democratic oversight.

Who'd bet against them 'accidentally' forgetting to transfer all the stuff about workers rights, and environmental standards?

Yup the agenda is there. Rip up environmental and employee protections.

@TJ I did already. No border from South to North. The EU has a problem with that as they require a border or a customs union solution.

Not all together surprisingly the Irish Foreign Minister is demanding a solution which best suits ... erm ... Ireland

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41218294

@binners we had a thread in "chlorine" washed chicken and I also commented that the EU has been considering approving the same for 2 years. Big issue in poland ATM re Salmonella which "chlorine" washing would solive. Awkward

Nope Jamba - you did not. The EU customs union requires full control of borders. The good Friday agreement requires open borders between the north and south or ireland. No one has come up with a workable solution to this yet - unless you have a revelation you could describe? One that does not involve wishful thinking and fairy dust

@binners we had a thread in "chlorine" washed chicken and I also commented that the EU has been considering approving the same for 2 years. Big issue in poland ATM re Salmonella which "chlorine" washing would solive. Awkward

Ireland and the EU should demand the solution that works for them, this is being forced on them by the UK.

@binners we had a thread in "chlorine" washed chicken and I also commented that the EU has been considering approving the same for 2 years

I've considered all manner of things at one point or other.... wake boarding, homosexuality, avocado's, morris dancing, hunting with hammers.... all sorts of stuff. But then thought 'naaah, don't think I'll bother'

Tonight's prediction. More Labour votes with the Government than Tories against. Outlier no Tories vote against (Clarke and Soubry have already said they will vote with)

No, we live in a parliamentary democracy and 48% of those who voted have an opinion. That you don't agree that they have a right to representation says something about you.

Yes, I understand what is in their best interests. And you....?

As WF comments later, we are talking (largely) about how to integrate existing EU Law, which one would assume the 48 are strongly in favour of - into UK law with the minimum disruption and delay. That you don't agree that we should protect their interests says a lot about you. A lot.

Tonight's prediction. More Labour votes with the Government than Tories against. Outlier no Tories vote against (Clarke and Soubry have already said they will vote with)

Probably bang on there, Jammers. It doesn't mean anything though, does it?

Voting against at this point is just grandstanding, and probably counter-productive as the Mail and the rest of the foaming-at-the-mouth press will just go into full on hatstand 'Enemies of the People' mode

Soubry et al are just keeping their powder dry for the time being, ready to throw a proper spanner in the works later down the road when they can seriously derail things at committee stage

I expect Kate Hoey and a couple of the other more unhinged labour backbenchers will vote against or abstain

Like I said, at this point its just meaningless showboating, and playing to the gallery

Yes I did TJ. If the EU impose a border on Ireland that's their choice. We are NOT obliged to come up with a solution which meets their every whim, eg a solution yes that will cost you £200 billion, oh and while we are at it per anum. There are still walls and barricades in Belfast, if the EU tries to introduce birder posts in Ireland I suspect the Dublin government will just ignore them. To do otherwsie would make them look very foolish.

Ah I see more insults from @mike. "Chlorine" washed chicken is a red herring, the EU turns a blind eye to all sorts of illegal animal husbandry with respect to pork, poisoned eggs etc. I have eaten plenty of take away and supermarket bought chicken in the US as I would imagine have most European tourists and businessmen.

Yes, I understand what is in their best interests. And you....?

Ah, their best interests, if we were talking best interests we would have scrapped brexit long ago.

Take it you have Corbyn's latest, permenant single market membership?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/sep/11/eu-withdrawal-bill-vote-boris-johnson-refuses-to-rule-out-free-movement-staying-during-brexit-transition-politics-live