[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Jamba go on then give your reasons succinctly to show its not simply believing the 20+ year campaign in the right wing press

20+ year campaign in the right wing press

Skinner - hates the Germans, harks back to empire.

harks back to empire.

Hmm

[i]Is not it ironic that at a time when the Soviet Union cannot handle the 15 nationalities in that empire, the Indian sub-continent is continuing to disintegrate and Yugoslavia cannot keep its nationalities together, people like the Foreign Secretary continue to waffle on about some grand political design in the Common Market? The truth is that British history and western European history show that in the past 11 centuries treaties have been drawn up between some of the oldest industrialised countries, every one of which, almost without exception, is in the dustbin of history. This latest grand political design will finish in the same place.[/i]

Seems like he's far from a believer in empires, doesn't it?

which bits make you particularly nervous

What makes me nervous is the Gov's attempt to load the committee in their favour, when they actually aren't in the majority.....& the attempt to integrate EU law into UK law with no parliamentary oversight....re. Henry VIII clauses.

Essentially they are attempting to fix the system in their favour & their corporate buddies..

[url= http://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/henry-viii-clauses/ ]Henry VIII[/url]
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41199128 ]Shady power grab..[/url]

And grabbing powers that should be devolved ie fisheries

MrL - fair enough, so the alternative?

Plus this from the bill

14 [b]The Bill does not aim to make major changes to policy or establish[/b] new legal frameworks in the UK beyond those which are necessary to ensure the law continues to function properly from day one. The Government will introduce separate primary legislation to make such policy changes which will establish new legal frameworks.[b]

Ok so no major changes and primary legislation in that case - so are the nerves the idea of the EU laws 😉 or which bit of EU law has been designed for the nasty corporate buddies of the Tories?

Oddly I thought you were an EU fan 😉

THM - Thanks. It's appreciated.

And yes, we'll see what the Leadsom proposals actually is next week. I don't like it full stop, but I can understand the reasoning for it if it's only for GRB scrutiny (not that I really like that).

Are governments well known for handing back power that they've got their hands on though?

No

The reaction to any terror attack shows that. Take more liberty away - normally too much - and never give it back

The remoaners are outdoing the Brexshiteers in making stuff up and exaggerating wildly

Go on them, link some.

I'll get back with all the Brexit propaganda posters and some Tory press headlines and we'll compare.

Look at the abuse jambas get here

citation required. or 'report post'. there's a special button for it and everything. what is this now? the third time?

Here you go Ed - caveat the poster may have joking

Where your MPs were indoctrinated

And who they are before even being indoctrinated

Sorry the links don't work

MrL - fair enough, so the alternative?

Follow parliamentary process - it's really not too much to ask......

Ok so no major changes and primary legislation in that case - so are the nerves the idea of the EU laws or which bit of EU law has been designed for the nasty corporate buddies of the Tories?

That's a half truth & a twisting of words at best. Neither EU law nor UK law frightens me.

What frightens me is the prospect of the Tories cherry picking new legislation & they want to do it with loaded committees & without parliament.

Oddly I thought you were an EU fan

Yes, I voted to remain but I also respect the democratic process.

I also respect the fact that it is equally democratic that someday there maybe another vote that may take us back in, as one took us in originally, as the last has taken us out.

I believe in due process & I believe that, above all, needs to be respected - regardless of the party in power.

I have a very low opinion of those who try to twist the idea of democracy, lie for their own purposes & above all abuse the system of checks & balances that exist in this country that ensures a semblance of fairness & honesty in our governments.

FWIW I voted Liberal.

I was half joking but anyway

Follow parliamentary process - it's really not too much to ask......

You would think not. So why have so many smart people rejected that idea? Apparently they reckon it IS too much to ask ....

So which areas of new legislation will be passed secondary v primary? The bits that are agitating you....

So Liberal . - the group who want to use every means to divert the process and are happy to say stuff the democratic process. It's becoming clearer now. The circle is squared.

So which areas of new legislation will be passed secondary v primary? The bits that are agitating you....

Still missing the point I see......

As for the smart people? You mean the Tory Eurosceptucs..

I care about the process being fair & with oversight - at the moment it looks. like being anything but.

Liberal? Yes, because the Tories have a nasty hard right & Labour & equally nasty hard left.

As for derailing the democratic process? Unsure of that - how exactly is Cable threatening that. A coup??

You could try the HOL EU ctte for starters - they have listened to lots of opinions and I have already posted their conclusions - yes too much to ask for.....

Still missing the point I see......

No this lies at the heart of the matter.

Careful with Uncle Vince - he still hadn't grasped the basic difference between membership of and access to the single market. Poor chap was still yaking on about leaving the single market on Marr.

citation required. or 'report post'. there's a special button for it and everything. what is this now? the third time?

Well the worst have of it has been reported and deleted, so how can tmh link to something that's been deleted ?

TJ I was very much pro the EU 15 years ago and 50/50 on whether we should join the euro when Brown decided not to. The Lisbon Treaty (which basically embodied the EU Constitution which the French voted down in their Referendum) has proven to be a huge negative when combined with the Eastern European expansion, catastrophe that has been the euro especially turning a blind eye to excessive borrowing, tragedy of migration mismanagement, Shengen disaster, appalling abuse of taxation and free trwde (Luxembourg and Ireland in particular) corruption/waste/fraud of EU itself.

I also respect the fact that it is equally democratic that someday there maybe another vote that may take us back in, as one took us in originally, as the last has taken us out.

This is what Remainers should focus on, becoming Rejoiners. If that's how we voted in the future I'd personally be dissapointed but would respect that result. Same as Scottish Indy Ref, my preferemce we remain a Union but respected the Scot's (once in a lifetime) right to choose

yes too much to ask for.....

Being patronising will neither win you my respect nor my admiration.

You just come across as condescending.

Rather sad - I thought you were more enlightened but now you're just coming across as being another Tory whose detached from society & reality. Caring little for the man in the street & being more interested in yourself.

Shame, as at times you've been a moderating voice.

Now your true colours (blue) appear to be showing.

Would you respect the result of a rejoin referendum if the campaign was a pack of lies? Is that good democracy? A competition to see how many people you can successfully lie to?

grasped the basic difference between membership of and access to the single market. Poor chap was still yaking on about leaving the single market on Marr.

Sorry the truth hurts.

By you reckoning the Tories must also have a massive hol majority the upper chamber must be detached from society and reality.

It's becoming quite a crowd. Alternatively.....

Remoaners are making a bloody good efforts at giving us a test case mol

Kelvin of course you can which is why "leaving" is simply a convenient word for confusing people. Every day or at least nearly every day the news is full of our negotiations to "operate" (I prefer have access to but semantics) in the single market. Odd that vince can't grasp such an obvious point isn't it? Was he away too long?

You know what is required to operate in the Single Market … now look again at the negotiations and the bill you've been "discussing" and the leaks on migration … paying the fees the only thing [s]we're[/s] the government is really keeping on the table, and that is not nearly enough. So it's not going to happen. Vince and co pushing it so as to keep us closer aligned with EU to make a return more likely in future I suspect. It would need major shifts in what the government is doing, and could help bring UK & rEU positions closer together … so happy if Kier & co start pushing this line as well.

Of course it isn't outside a bespoke deal

We have known that for ages

Both sides start from incompatible positions - that is the UK and EU. Vince is starting from not understanding the key point, but hey.....

Remoaners are making a bloody good efforts at giving us a test case mol

Well telling the truth didn't do us much good last time did it?

(this post is overly cynical)

Both sides start from incompatible positions - that is the UK and EU.

Vince is starting from not understanding the key point, but hey.....

Strange that you oppose anyone that suggests the UK shifts position,

Even stranger if that were true.

You understand the issues involved more than him?

In my sector 100%. Beyond that, who knows? But since he has the wrong starting point, things are looking promising so far....

Love your arrogance, and dismissal of a man with so much experience and knowledge.

Remembering you referring to May's "pinklines"… how and when do you see the shift in position on FoM and ECJ occurring? Alternatively, apart from on paying in long term, how else do you think the UK government can shift its position toward something the EU could also shift towards?

As an aside...

I read that Niggl Farridge thinks the idea that music can cross boundaries and borders and have international appeal is "airy-fairy nonsense"...

... as he searched through his one inch thoughts and decided it couldn't be done...

I need to know my stuff as it affects my business. Cable just has to make people believe his BS and vote for him. You decide which is likely to be better and why?

Who knows when either side will budge. We have seen compromises already. More to follow that's certain, When? That isn't.... We shall see.

In which areas can "we" shift? May's redlines aren't looking pink yet. Payments seem to be all she's personally preparing to concede on (and she never stood in front of any buses, so can). The "others" keep trying to close that down as well (leadership positioning no doubt).

IIRC she was a remainer. The leavers stood in front of buses I believe.

The positions have already softened but since [s]the EU won't negotiate on the core issue of trade[/s] we are still at stage one so too early for big changes yet

Why have you picked the one thing that hasn't changed?

By "stood in front of any buses" … I mean claim to stop "sending" money to the EU, and you know that full well, of course,

Had a quick search, the only bus I can find May stood in front of has a slogan solely in support of herself.

One thing that hasn't changed? You mean paying money into EU schemes? Because it's the biggest thing the government have left themselves room to move on (despite some ministers trying to box May in by claiming we'll pay nothing). ECJ and FoM redlines are getting harder, not softer.

How do you think the government could or should move their position… or are you waiting to agree with whatever the current Conservative leader decides to do?

I read that Niggl Farridge thinks the idea that music can cross boundaries and borders and have international appeal is "airy-fairy nonsense"

By "bus" … I mean claim to stop "sending" money to the EU, and you know that full well, of course,

No, I trusted what you wrote. Is that the wrong thing to do?

FOM - have said that many times. Unlinked both major parties, I am pro FoM. I have benefitted from it, so have my wife and one of the mini THMs, so why would I deny this to others? Plus it benefits the UK too. Win:win. Hardly a Tory message though. Odd that...

When, after we move to stage 2

So you're still hoping for her redline on FoM to change to pink? Keep EVERYTHING crossed for May to move on that. I'll personally toast both you and her if that happens.

The Committee you speak of THM....

Half of it are hard line Brexiteers...
Half are soft remainders....

All are Tory.

Ill take their opinion on how EU law should be incorporated into UK law with a bulldozer load of salt!

Fine you do that

The first name on the list of committee members is Lord Beith. What party, any idea? The second Labour.

What were you saying about bulldozers?

Which committee are you referring to?

So we are on the same page..

I thought you meant the Dept of Brexit..

You mean?

Edit: you mean the Lords - my bad. But, yes maybe not a bulldozer but certainly more than a shovels worth!

Bottom line: I wouldn't trust ANY minority's Gov who are giving the impression of trying to load the dice, then defend it -.particylarly when it's something of this importance..

I don't care how long it takes to run it through Parliament, but FFS it must be done RIGHT & FAIRLY. The current plan (?) has none of that about it for me..

Well if they allow FoM then they certainly might as well call the whole thing off, because for sure that's the dominant issue for the largest proportion of leave voters.

The DoB are not part of the HoL are they?

HOL Select Committee on the Constitution

It's their report that I have quoted the most recently. But since you disagree so violently with what they say, you might not want to google it. It's far too late to edit all the ^ anyway.

ertainly might as well call the whole thing off, because for sure that's the dominant issue for the largest proportion of leave voters

Leave voters or voters? 😉

Big Tony has changed his tune on FoM. Blowing with the wind.

So you're still hoping for her redline on FoM to change to pink? Keep EVERYTHING crossed for May to move on that.

Given her track record, losing all of the benefits of EU membership, and getting to pay to keep the thing that most leave voters disliked most wouldn't come as a huge surprise!

good article on Henry VIII clause:

[url= http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/11/30/rights-for-the-chop-how-a-henry-viii-clause-in-the-great-repeal-bill-will-undermine-democracy/ ]LSE[/url]

disagree so violentl

Democracy should not be subordinated for the sake of expediency.

I thought big tony was basically suggesting that we implement the restrictions on FoM that are already allowed (i.e. FoLabour) and pretend this is a big concession from the EU such that leaving is no longer required 🙂