Forum menu
What would you expect/prefer him to say?
Something making the remotest acknowledgement of reality, rather than some mad right-wing fantasyland might be nice.
If only for the novelty value
Go on.....
What would you expect/prefer him to say?
How about admitting that the Tories screwed up and that anything that they do puts them in breach of the GFA for a starter.
The simple problem is there is NO solution to the Irish border that respects the GFA. Of course this was pointed out, but that was project fear. Well here is one solution, but i don't think the DUP are ready for that....
i prefer to say Brexshiteers screwed up - IIRC the Tory Gov campaigned for remain, remember the fuss about use of funds? - but then again I don't have party allegiances that blind me 😉
Thank you for repeating the point that I have been making for q a while. There is no solution to the Irish border issue. Hence the choice of the EU to add it to the first round must be solves issues. They are canny little burgers aren't they?!?
but it will involve some form of (as yet unknown) form of tech solution
ranging from ...
[img] 
[/img]
to this
[img] 
[/img]
means nothing , you are david davis & I claim my free unicorn 😆
THM - If the Irish border issue cannot be solved (I doubt it can with the possible exception of reunification - still might not solve it) then why proceed with the rest of the negotiation?
In fact if it cannot be solved, can Brexit actually be done?
Sounds like a fundamental that you need to sort up front - no?
They are canny little burgers aren't they?!?
Well it isnt something which needs an answer pretty sharpish.
So makes sense to have it in the first round. Aside from anything else as soon as the British government can set crapita or whoever working on the job of automating the border the sooner we can start burning cash on the failed project.
Well it isnt something which needs an answer pretty sharpish.
exactly, potentially the most explosive issue of Brexit that could upset millions of lives (just like citiznes rights) hence why it was a condition
the exit bill on the other hand.... 😈
i prefer to say Brexshiteers screwed up - IIRC the Tory Gov campaigned for remain, remember the fuss about use of funds? - but then again I don't have party allegiances that blind me
Who called the referendum? Brexiteers or Cameron? Who was it who claimed it was an advisory referendum, who failed to actually set it up with a super-majority rule.
Now who is it that won't actually admit that there is no solution and would rather carry on with the crap.
Tories and Labour almost to an MP refuse to be straight with the electorate.
igm, there are IMO two solutions, one that relies on the NI population voting for reunification and the Republic accepting the North back, i am sure if the UK throws enough cash at the republic that bit could be sorted. not so sure that Loyalists are ready though.
The second "solution" the UK walks out of the GFA, and accepts everything that follows! How bad can it be......
Who called the referendum? Brexiteers or Cameron? Who was it who claimed it was an advisory referendum, who failed to actually set it up with a super-majority rule.Now who is it that won't actually admit that there is no solution and would rather carry on with the crap.
You seem somewhat confused here
Tories and Labour almost to an MP refuse to be straight with the electorate
But rescued it at the end
The second "solution" the UK walks out of the GFA, and accepts everything that follows! How bad can it be......
Just the latest to be added to the long list of things that must be sacrificed to [s]pacify the foaming-at-the-mouth right wing racist nutters[/s] fulfil the will of the people
Are you all really suggesting that the Irish border problem should overturn the democratic vote in the rest of UK? Tail wagging dog.
14 months after the vote, you guys are still in denial. Brexit can be a success and probably will be a success (politicians ability to cock it up always exists).
have you all forgotten how pi$$poor the EU is / was - not very democratic, not transparent, cant produce proper accounts, has created a decade of shrinkage or no growth in the Club Med, has pissed off nearly the whole population of NW Europe with obsession with freedom of movement (encouraged by Blair FFS).
The EU will probably collapse at some point. its not well run and probably never will be. We can survive outside and most likely thrive. For your own mental health, stop moaning and looking backwards.
the Irish should quit EU as well - even their own academics have suggested this and its not totally bonkers even if it is a bit counter intuitive at first.
No, we should be honest and just say **** the Irish, they are just thick paddies and we don't give two shits if they start blowing each other up. Cos that's what we really think. The people have spoken and their views must be respected, however bigoted and ignorant they might be.
hh45 - "Brexit can be a success and probably will be a success". 😆
Well you made me laugh anyway.
The EU wasn't perfect but it was probably the best thing to happen to the UK in a very long time.
You're going to miss it.
the Irish should quit EU as well - even their own academics have suggested this and its not totally bonkers even if it is a bit counter intuitive at first.
Class. 😆
stop moaning and looking backwards.
The Irony.
No, we should be honest and just say **** the Irish, they are just thick paddies and we don't give two shits if they start blowing each other up. Cos that's what we really think.
Speak for yourself
The people have spoken and their views must be respected, however bigoted and ignorant they might be.I
Quite, that is how democracies work. Imagine throwing the same accusation at the Nats (their false promises made Brexshiteers look like saints) and see how far you get
If we couldn't make the bleeding obvious (remain) accessible to the great British public, then we share as much of the blame as they do (if not more)
igm - Member
THM - If the Irish border issue cannot be solved (I doubt it can with the possible exception of reunification - still might not solve it) then why proceed with the rest of the negotiation?
As in most aspects of life, things are messy. The world rarely fits into nice tidy boxes. It's difficult. There are contradictions and compromises that have to be made. But if you step away at the first obstacle, you would not succeed at anything.
The Irish border issue in one of many important issues that defies and easy solution. So time to face the challenge. That is what makes us successful.
In fact if it cannot be solved, can Brexit actually be done?
Sounds like a fundamental that you need to sort up front - no?
The history of the EU - from design to decay - has been of messy compromise and doing things that defied economic logic. Hence its many flaws. Think Maastricht - even the Germans fudged that one and it's was so fundamentals that it beggars belief that it's was ignored. But the project trumps everything else. Never forget that.
Fundametals are ignored when it comes to Europe. Plus ca change
Choosing the right challenge is also a key part of success of course.
Well we failed that one, didn't we!!
Plenty of views being expressed that Ireland should leave or at least think very carefully based upon Brexit negotiation outcome. I have read a few peices, ex Irish ambassador etc.
@igm if the Irish border issue cannot be solved Brexit will definitely go ahead anyway. Zero doubt in my mind. I suggest you don't hold put any hopes on that derailing our exit. If there was a chance it would do so the EU would simply guaranty the border issue was not solved and keep is inside fhe EU whuch is their preference. We don't want a hard border but if the EU forces one then that's on their conscience. They are currently trying to play Irish people's lives against ECJ jurisdiction, disgraceful.
Switzerland is in Shengen but not the Customs Union (I think) - people can move freely but not goods.
@kimbers vast majority of farmers don't use cheap EU labour, only a few specific sectors. They will get the labour they need under a short term visa scheme with caveat that wages much be sufficient for employees to live (ie no in-work benefit subsidies from the tax payer)
So many good quotes in this piece
[url= http://commentcentral.co.uk/ditch-project-fear-for-project-prosperity/ ]ditch-project-fear-for-project-prosperity/[/url]
Interestingly traces the source of the "big lie" about millions of jobs being "dependent upon EU membership". Also slates FT columnist for ludicrus project Armageddon predictions.
It's all about the global opportunities
Jamba - I will hope for Brexit to be derailed until we leave. Then I will start on how we rejoin.
As I have said before, once you wake up to the fact that leaving the EU solves nothing, causes you personal pain, and causes the UK pain even if the EU bend over backwards to be nice to us, you will join me.
I'll be nice about it and not say I told you so.
The people have spoken and their views must be respected, however bigoted and ignorant they might be.I
Quite, that is how democracies work.
I have to disagree here (again).
It's pointless to say that governments should do whatever the public clamour for. The public does not know how to run a country - me included. The government is quite happy to ignore the wishes of the public when it wants to which is almost all the time. Referenda have to be well thought out - this one wasn't.
As I said before, it would be democratic to give my kids crisps for breakfast because they'd vote for it. But it would not be a good idea.
It's all about the global opportunities
Not really - it's all about distancing ourselves from our neighbours and ending dozens if not hundreds of close co-operations with people with whom we work very well. The EU is far more than simply a government.
It's pointless to say that governments should do whatever the public clamour for. The public does not know how to run a country - me included. The government is quite happy to ignore the wishes of the public when it wants to which is almost all the time. Referenda have to be well thought out - this one wasn't.
I have forwarded your concerns to Nicola Sturgeon - she says, "you are talking pish pal, you can fool most of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time. You cannae forget that pal"
I must say it's all going as expected
@molgrips and@igm take the time to read the Prosperity piece
@mols there is no need for working together to come to an end, 1) the EU should agree a sensible deal 2) you can work with people without being in a political union with them
@igm campaigning to rejoin is where its at, that's democracy
@igm if the Irish border issue cannot be solved Brexit will definitely go ahead anyway.
And any blood will be on your hands.
@igm campaigning to rejoin is where its at, that's democracy
So you agree that campaigning to scrap Art50 is a good idea, why waste the time and money holding another referendum in a few years.
@igm campaigning to rejoin is where its at, that's democracy
if we don't rejoin the EU, 3 million foreign criminals a week will cost the NHS a BILLION pounds a second.
Jamba - will you promise it's not another piece of ill thought out nonsense propaganda? If so I might consider reading it, but you have to overcome your poor track record for posting up rubbish.
If campaigning to rejoin is democracy so is campaign not to self harm in the first place. That's democracy fog you - git isn't it?
Edit - it's a UKIP type authoring that piece you recommend Jamba. Propaganda. Not very well written either. And even I can spot made up bits.
And any blood will be on your hands.
How odd, I would have thought any perpetrator would be guilty. Funny old world.
vast majority of farmers don't use cheap EU labour, only a few specific sectors.
Source?
Or Jambafact?
IME - that's not the case. Haveing been a farmer & farm manager I've found EU labout just about everywhere.
Forget farms, who's going to serve my skinny soya caramel macchiato? Apparently 70% of waiters and waitresses are migrants from the EU!
As for the farmers, well they've made their beds. Of course those subsidies will be honoured.
We really are in the doo-dah, aren't we? Anyone with an ounce of economic sense can see this.
On the contrary as always good to read what the oppo are saying so that you can understand where they are coming from. All Cogdon is doing is highlighting that pessimistic forecast re the labour market have so far proved to be wrong. Fair enough, that's true.
But then again remember r that even the project fear numbers were not that bad anyway despite the headlines. And that's the point, we WILL get thought this, once we get over the remonaing. It's shit but not terminally so.
I am probably one of the few who read the whole Scottidh Indepence comic of well over 600 pages. Originally for the reasons above, but about half way through it became clear that's real value was comic
You skim read that, didn't you, because that is not "all he is doing" in that piece at all.All Cogdon is doing is highlighting that pessimistic forecast re the labour market have so far proved to be wrong
Agree, in the whole, but ithere will be many examples of people finding it more than just "a bit shit".It's shit but not terminally so.
But that piece is talking about how we'll all be much better off, with no shitness. Read it all.
Try this bit on for size…
[b][i]"With the Brexit boost that can be achieved by ditching the protectionist prison of the EU and embracing global free trade, a dividend worth about £5,000 per year to families across the country accompanied by an 8 per cent fall in prices tells us that the cost of watering down/avoiding a clean Brexit would be calamitous."[/i][/b]
Apparently 70% of waiters and waitresses are migrants from the EU!
Wetherspoons suggestion for this is we should retain all the current rules for migration so he can continue to get the staff in.
I believe those rules are called "Freedom of movement", no?
[url= http://www.timcongdon4ukip.com/ ]Tim Congdon member of UKIP since 2007[/url]
just so we know why he's written the piece that Jamba wants us all to read.
I want my £5000 a year Brexit dividend, whoever he is.
How odd, I would have thought any perpetrator would be guilty. Funny old world.
Naive comment.
The Prison of protectionism? Ha, Ha. We will be screaming for any for of protection once the tories idea of free market comes to beat up our economy.
@mols there is no need for working together to come to an end, 1) the EU should agree a sensible deal 2) you can work with people without being in a political union with them
Not as closely though. You're mad if you think we won't be further away from our neighbours after Brexit. If only because freedom of movement that you want to end is a major factor in this.
So picking this up a day late... The chief brexiteer is still believing the propaganda and the closet tory still wishes we would all stop complaining and do what mummy may says. Meanwhile massive issues are being swept under the carpet. NI is spot on, the blood spilled will be in the hands of those that returned us to this situation and those who spill it. The people who create the political problem cannot absolve themselves of blame.