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"As committed"
Of course as we all know there's a much higher proportion of leavers in the Tory vote than in labour (where it's a clear minority). It may suit you to claim that labour is "as committed to brexit" but they most certainly are not.
And shock horror the Government leaks their plan for how to treat EU nationals. Basically as badly as any other immigrant.
Except the difference is we are European and far more tightly related politically, culturally and economically to Europe than any other country or set of countries. Of course one would expect a closer more open immigration position than with places on the other side of the planet.
I suspect many more leaked documents will arrive on our screens - perhaps not from our government.
Given the EU know that the government's position will be unpalatable to roughly 50% of the British people, it's a great way to keep Davis et al on the back foot.
Of course the leak won't be traceable to the EU.
Of course the leak won't be traceable to the EU.
ah, yes, the leak came from the EU
mrmo, I am sure in posting your link that you were equally cogniscent of the current and real tensions that also exist WITHIN the EU re freedom of movement and possible restrictions relating to this. If not, then as a starter simple google Macron (the saviour of le projet) and polish workers and read about that spat. Then place the Guardian's (Remoan Rag) in the correct context
Populism and it's not so hidden bedfellow, xenophobia, are rife across Europe and the world. To suggest that this is isolated to the UK government is an exercise in extraordinary short sightedness and you would never risk that, would you?
Reading the article about encouraging employers to recruit skilled workers from the UK rather than overseas. It seems oblivious to the fact that employers might not actually be able to find the skills in the UK. If employers can't get the best people, and they end up working for overseas competitors, what's that going to do for UK businesses?
This can only be of benefit if we ALSO INVEST IN SKILLS.
FFS.
“Put plainly, this means that, to be considered valuable to the country as a whole, immigration should benefit not just the migrants themselves but also make existing residents better off,” the paper says.
Macron or May?
THM, you are also well aware that their have always been rules in place that the UK government never implemented. Having just driven back from Switzerland, Border controls between Switzerland and Italy, nothing, Switzerland and France, nothing. UK and France about an hour.
There are controls, there have always been controls. Talk about free movement is simply right wing bollocks. It doesn't exist. When most immigration is non EU, something that has always been controllable the whole argument smells of racism and not of control, of addressing any concerns.
Rather come out with more crap, how about the UK government actually being honest for once?
Less labour = labour costs up.
Is the customer willing to pay more?
Unlikely.
So the job gets automated away, or the job moves to the workers who will do it (ie abroad, like the car factories will).
It's not rocket science.
I recall the bloke whining on the Adrian Chiles doc, 6 kids, social housing, didn't look capable of much, voted leave because "the Polish come in and reduce the wages so I can't get a job to cover my costs".
Maybe you should have kept your * in your pants mate.
Are you going to turn out to the factory for an extra quid an hour?
Somehow doubt it.
And you had the f*** temerity to vote my FOM rights off me, and off my 6 year old daughter.
(Yes, still angry!)
As for gangmasters, expoitation, and so on - if it's illegal bloody well prosecute it instead of tolerating it! Don't need to leave the EU for that, just implement the law.
Judgy judgy ^^
The case for remain doesn't need to be made with prejudice like that.
-deleted, as I find myself falling back into the STW echo chamber. should know better.
have a good night all.
It appears that I may be behind you on the intake - however silent pool gin and fever tree tonic should help me make some sense of your post
mrmo - Member
THM, you are also well aware that their have always been rules in place that the UK government never implemented.
Perhaps, but how is this relevant to any of the ^. Looks like I need a double here
Having just driven back from Switzerland, Border controls between Switzerland and Italy, nothing, Switzerland and France, nothing. UK and France about an hour.
Or a triple. Did anyone mention Shengen or was I imagining that. Again relevance?
There are controls, there have always been controls.
Agreed, I used to argue that point with jambas
Talk about free movement is simply right wing bollocks. It doesn't exist.
Wow, there must be more right wing bollox spouters in EU than I thought. And to think all this time and money wasted on addressing an issue that is nothing more than bollox. What a funny old world.
When most immigration is non EU, something that has always been controllable the whole argument smells of racism and not of control, of addressing any concerns.
True but not relevant to the above. We are talking about a Remoan Rag attempt to suggest that an alleged position of the UK is either unique or abhorrent, Get with the game.
Rather come out with more crap, how about the UK government actually being honest for once?
From a man who admits that one of the most mportant principles behind the single market and a major point of contention is nothing more than RW bollox. Who needs Brexshiteers when I side come up with stuff like this. That's a corker!!! 9/10
Anyway, cheers! Time for me to catch up. Lovely.....
@mattjg wasn't that the argument against the Minimum Wage ?
Davies was interesting today, looks increasingky likely to me the Govt position is to agree to pay into the EU budget until Dec 2020 on the basis we have full access to the EU single market (without freedom of movement and able to close new trade deals) AND the future free trade deal we want. Not my first choice but good enough.
"Leak" of the Govt paper on post Brexit Immigration plans is interesting reading. Sky uses Gordon Brown's "British Jobs for British Workers" tag lime
http://news.sky.com/story/leaked-post-brexit-immigration-plans-branded-mean-and-cynical-11022214
Meanwhile Macron tours E Europe trying to drum up support to change a regulation that relates to @1% of French Labour but can be used as a mask to cover up the reason for high unemployment and weak performance.
Sounds scarily familiar.... 😉
[i]"Whatabout…"
"…poorly thought out populist anti immigrant policies proposed in other countries…"[/i]
You can do better THM, the polices in the leaked document are as piss poor as the tighter regime May introduced for nonEU workers. I'm suprised at you defending it by deflection. Just agree that it's poor, and hope that it's far from the eventual policies that will be put in place.
"Leak" of the Govt paper on post Brexit Immigration plans is interesting reading.
"Fair and generous " is the official Newspeak line, I believe.
It appears that I may be behind you on the intake - however silent pool gin and fever tree tonic should help me make some sense of your post
I thought you were a rye drinker?
binners - MemberDavid Davis reveals further Brexit 'strategy'
A tactic used by Churchill when he really wanted to do something stupid and everyone else was saying no. There's a great recording of this in the cabinet war rooms, I can't remember what it is he's arguing for, explosive giraffes or something. If it worked in ww2 it'll work today, what patriot could object to Davis emulating Churchill?
I'm suprised at you defending it by deflection
Not as surprised as I am that you completed missed the point
Macron is doing exactly what I suggested at the start of this thread, bring about change from within rather than leave. European rules are seen as unfair on many levels and the solution is to work to make things fairer. Why should a Pole working in France be paid less than the French minimum wage? It's unfair on the Pole and unfair on local worker who can't compete.
It's unfair that Google can make huge profits in Germany and bank them in Ireland.
While the EU is seen to tolerate abuses it will be unpopular and Brexit, Frexit or whatever will always have varying degrees of popular support. So European leaders need to work towards a fairer system with a playing field as level as possible.
Britain could have used its veto on many occasions to block the rules that led to Brexit. It didn't, the lobby groups bobbied and the rules went in favour of the lobbyists rather than the populace. The City first and foremost, the City will now pay the price.
Your/Macrons arguments are simply the same as those used by the Brits
Same argument about "fairness" to both domestic and foreign workers
Same target audience - the domestic one
Same tactic of extrapolating minor issues (postal workers which account for 1% of Fr employment) to mask the real issues but in order to pander to and pacify an ill informed domestic audience
So nothing to do with brexshit - everyone is at it. Perhaps they should all employ the soon to be redundant Bell Pottibger staff to spin it even more?
Same tactic of extrapolating minor issues (postal workers which account for 1% of Fr employment) to mask the real issues but in order to pander to and pacify an ill informed domestic audience
Having just listened to the 'debate' on Five Live regarding immigration, it was fairly predictably polarised into
1) Woefully ill-informed, bitter, Mail-reading old racists, who no doubt live in areas where there are no actual immigrants, claiming that they're all just here to claim benefits and get free NHS treatment
2) Business owners saying that without a migrant workforce they're absolutely stuffed! And that they're struggling to recruit already on account of the Brexit result. The workers are simply voting with their feet and going elsewhere in Europe
It's nice to know that the government is listening. Unfortunately, they're only listening to one of the above groups. And it's not the one they should be listening too
Still... the little Englanders must be appeased at all costs.
Brexit means Brexit, and all that
When does a foreign worker stop being foreign?
Um....when they naturalise? Is it a trick question?
I think it's something to do with cricket...
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Legally yes - but what about in the opinions of other people?
Anyone else chuckling at the Brexit voting farmers this morning as they realise brexit means no more easy access to EU workers.....
NFU in a right tiz this morning
Just wait until they find the truth out about the assurances of "yeah, yeah... of course, you'll still be getting the same subsidies you got from the EU. [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-40673559 ]Honest![/url]"
What have labour said?
good opportunity for them once again to show they are the party of economic common sense, rather than the Tories whos leaked doccument has managed to upset business leaders this morning
Farmers will get looked after, Tory version of a subsidised industry....
You shouldn't be a business leader if any of the leak was a surprise. Yes it's crap but none of the details are a surprise.
Jezza days much the same too - a trend here ?!?
Tory brexiteer gobshite Owen Paterson is on the radio telling us about the magical border between Ireland (the EU) and the UK (non EU) with regard to controlling our borders, and enforcing immigration/border control
To summarise...
Blah, blah, blah.... technology. Blah, blah, blah.... biometrics...
On having it pointed out that this hasn't ever been done before and isn't presently technologically possible, he then concluded with the statement "Oh I can't see it being too burdensome"
Once again the David Davis school of "I'm sure it'll all be fine"
I don't know about you, but it certainly inspires confidence in me that it will be
"Oh I can't see it being too burdensome"
How burdensome is the border between France and Switzerland? can't say I've ever found it to be a problem in the couple of dozen times or so I've been through it.
Yeah, and Switzerland is in Schengen. I wonder if there could be a link there?
Yeah, and Switzerland is in Schengen. I wonder if there could be a link there?
However Ireland isn't, ( and I don't think there seem to be any major problems at the Romanian, Bulgarian, Cypriot or Croatian borders either for what it's worth)
So? You were saying travel from France to Switzerland was easy. I was pointing out that's cos both are in Schengen. Up to you to explain why you think this is relevant to Ireland.
How burdensome is the border between France and Switzerland? can't say I've ever found it to be a problem in the couple of dozen times or so I've been through it.
Are you shipping car parts through it though? Paying for the privilege and then waiting weeks for the paper work?
[url= https://www.thelocal.ch/20150901/getting-the-lowdown-on-cross-border-shopping-duties ]Frictionless border between Switzerland and EU[/url]
Yes you can drive through the border and it is in the schegen zone, and of the times i have been i have only been held up once. However Swiss customs do hold cars for inspection, there are duties and paperwork that you are meant to pay.
In theory you are on duty free limits, 1? bottle wine etc. Take the UK out of the customs union and same rules apply.
Tory brexiteer gobshite Owen Paterson is on the radio telling us about the magical border between Ireland (the EU) and the UK (non EU) with regard to controlling our borders, and enforcing immigration/border control
What would you expect/prefer him to say?
Does the remain side (and the normally sensible) Sir Kier do any better:
[a transition period] also provides more time to resolve the complex question of the NI border. Labour is clear that this extremely serious issues must not be rushed [we have no answer either] and that a considered agreement [but we are trying] needs to be reached that prevents a hard border and ha support from all communities
NSS! And the clear proposal/solution is.......(quick I'm holding my breath)
Small wonder that the EU is insisting on progress here before moving on. Hmmm, let's think why..... (Don't hold yours)
THM - Sir K is looking for about 500 years to address the problem. It's been at least that long in the making.
If wonder what he is think when he says stuff like this.
"We are very clear on this issue and will even be able to give you an answer at some point......[leaves room and turns to aid].....one bloke looked a bit puzzled, but I think I got away with it"
with Gove it's a bit easier as he clearly has no problem making things up, but Starmer seems outwardly far too sensible to be wearing the emperor's new clothes too.
Still platitudes/distraction make you the prudent face of Brexshit apparently 😉
Right, so he clearly recognises that it's complicated (I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that he actually realises no reasonable solution is possible) and is not promising any magic solution that doesn't exist, but you still can't acknowledge this as being any better than the tories just pretending it can all be solved by fairies and an honesty box at the border?
ISTM that your blind allegiance to the tories really cripples your judgment.
Are you looking in the mirror?
I have stated many times that I would prefer to have SKS as part of the negotiation team along with the moderate PH. Did you blind allegiance lead you to miss that.
The point I am making is that no one has a solution yet, but it will involve some form of (as yet unknown) form of tech solution. They are both correct. To suggest or imply otherwise is mere remoaning nonsense.