[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

bearnecessities - Member
Not posted in here (32k posts?!)..but I'd be fascinated to know your source of 'common knowledge' of this...

Common knowledge the the Brexit dept was overwhelmed by applications from pro-Leaver civil servants desperate to work on the most important and beneficial Government project of their lifetime.

My source, who ought to know but may not, tells me that guaranteed promotions had to be offered to get people to apply and that the Ministry of Silly Brexit is now mightily annoyed that other departments talked the less good civil servants into applying thereby getting rid of dregs and trouble makers that couldn't get promoted in their own departments.

Of course he may be wrong / fibbing, but I don't think he is.

No kimbers I read one of your links (the Gove one) and immediately it is clear that your point is lost: simply down to a basic misunderstanding and hence misinterpretation of what is going on and what is being said.

Once you begin from the correct starting point i.e. The ability to differentiate between membership of and access to it all falls into place and your argument above becomes invalid

Remoaners complain that the Brexshiteers were too thick to be able to vote and were misled and then you admit to not having enough time to understand the issues properly. I have posted that paragraph three times now.

Hence mikes comment falls into the same category I.e. The majority want full on brexshit. WTF is that about.l? The vote was about membership of the EU. We know - or at least should do if we (both sides) can be bothered tot read and understand the issues - what that means.

We are giving up membership - more people voted for that that voted to retain it

We are now negotiating the nature of our on-going access to single market. The rest is BS

Membership of v access to - REPEAT 101x

. Remainers warned we'd have to leave the customs union and the single market, Leavers repeatedly assured us we wouldn't.

The is the perfect example of a remoan. An argument based on a misrepresentation of the issues involved. "Leave" has zero value in this context other than to confuse, deliberately or otherwise.

membership of v access to - simple isn't it?

We know that gove spouted a lot of BS during the campaign - very true - but let's look at your link

The UK would still be able to trade freely within Europe even if it left the EU, Michael Gove has said.

Ok so far but sloppy use of leave (BBC or Gove not sure)

The justice secretary said the UK could be part of Europe's free trade area to avoid trade tariffs, even if it was not[b] a member of the [/b]EU single market.

Same again - nb member of

.....On trading, he said the UK would be part of the European free trade zone with [b]access to [/b]the European single market but ....

Same again nb reference to access to....

What you have done is to quote a rare occasion when a Brexshiteer was telling the truth and distorted it into a remoan. Awesome.

Jambas it wasnt 6% either - that was their worst case scenario

Hence mikes comment falls into the same category I.e. The majority want full on brexshit. WTF is that about.l? The vote was about membership of the EU. We know - or at least should do if we (both sides) can be bothered tot read and understand the issues - what that means.

Anyway that rant over, I'm more intrigued by what happens when May is challenged, will any of the Brexit 3 step up?

I hope not

But don't forget in passing

More people voted to give up membership that to retain it

Both major parties campaigned to respect that decision

Inconvenient truths I know

The question on the ballot paper asked "Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU? "

So if we answer ‘Leave’, it means stopping ‘free movement’? No, where does it mention that? Read the question.

And getting out of the single market (which is separate to EU membership)?

No. Read the question.

Indeed read it and ask what membership is all about

DD and Starmer are both on marr now

My source, who ought to know but may not, tells me that guaranteed promotions had to be offered to get people to apply and that the Ministry of Silly Brexit is now mightily annoyed that other departments talked the less good civil servants into applying thereby getting rid of dregs and trouble makers that couldn't get promoted in their own departments.

Of course he may be wrong / fibbing, but I don't think he is.

Appreciate you're just passing on your friend's info, but every word of that is absolute laughable nonsense 🙂

Interesting perspective here. Those of the Pro Brexit persuasion wil of course dismiss it as remoaner BS, but perhaps there is an element of truth in the lack of understanding of the complexity of the reality vs the simplistic expectation of the campaign on both sides.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/02/fantasy-that-brexit-would-be-easy-is-costing-us-dear

More people voted to give up membership that to retain it

Both major parties campaigned to respect that decision

Inconvenient truths I know

Divorce payments - more sloppy language 😀

sorry I'm using the common man's terms. Perhaps teacher THM needs to go ride his bike for a bit...

Beware of the common man - a consistent theme above is that "he" is the person who is too thick to understand what is going on 😉

Bike coming, Marr first

But unsurprisingly Gove [b]was[/b] lying

Access to the single market does not leave us...

free from EU regulation which costs us billions of pounds a year".

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/04/21/michael-goves-problem-is-that-a-single-market-is-more-than-just-a-tariff-free-zone/

Not on the issue you claimed.

He lied on many issues with a bare face - agreed

KS dealing with tricky questions quite well but essentially nothing different. Nice and clear including admitting the difficulties

Bike coming, Marr first

Winter is Coming. Never mind Marr, get on your bike!

teamhurtmore - Member
Not on the issue you claimed

[grited teeth] I will concede that you are right on that [/grited teeth]

😀

And equally I concede that I ended my quote before the less factual stuff began 😉

Gove makes my skin crawl with his bare faced lies

Marr has writers of THIS HOUSE on at the moment - great play

UK unemployment is 4.4% France 9.75%

somehow we managed that under the yoke of the oppressive EU.

we still have far to go as a country and as individuals.

we?

edited. unnecessary.

Appreciate you're just passing on your friend's info, but every word of that is absolute laughable nonsense

Appreciate your view point, but I have reason to believe him. Less so Jamba's assertion.

Maybe there should be a second referendum

Those that want to stay get a second crack at it ....but would have to accept the result this time round , none of this we was robbed your honour if the lose

Those that wish to leave get a solid yup we are leaving , f you barrier your exit bill and everything else there would be no reason not to leave then

Secondly I wonder what the Eu would do there's going to be a big hole in their coffers if they don't get their money but eventually Germany and France and the other 25 "solidarity for Europe" countries are going to be thinking we are financially losing here as individual countries and it will be every man for himself , if there's no trade deal with the Uk they can talk it up all they want but where are you going to export your extra % of product we don't take last year we were the 4th biggest customer in export terms for German engineered products , you can always make less product but instantly your own exports And economy just shrank ....the German folks are going to be laying off and etc etc what may happen here will also. E going on over there too.

Canada has (and Japan in future) a bespoke sector by sector trade deal with no Freedom of Movement and no ECJ. Ditto the 60 other nations (most tiny) with similar arrangements. Arrangements such as EEA are not of interest to me as they are too restrictive. In addition the EU has agreements with various countries to allow quotas of named goods to be imported WTO tariff free - eg New Zealand lamb. All of these are bespoke and free of budget contributions or the need to provide free uncontrolled access to our economy for EU citizens.

Now IMO the EU doesn't have the organisation or dynamism to agree such things quickly (despite rumours of Junker proposing to "streamline" the process in a speech later this month). As such we should crack on with a clean break and the same trade deal the EU's largest counterparts use (ie WTO) until such a time as they get their act together.

Brexit Dept. Numerous quotes / interviews from last year from Davies, Gove etc. Our Brussels negotiating team comprises 100 people vs EU's 60 for example

somehow we managed that under the yoke of the oppressive EU.

We would have done better outside (IMO) AND the EU is heading further and further in the Superstate direction. We needed to break free in what was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Secondly I wonder what the Eu would do there's going to be a big hole in their coffers if they don't get their money but eventually Germany and France and the other 25 "solidarity for Europe" countries are going to be thinking we are financially losing here as individual countries and it will be every man for himself

Brexit Dept. Numerous quotes / interviews from last year from Davies, Gove etc. Our Brussels negotiating team comprises 100 people vs EU's 60 for example

We would have done better outside (IMO)

in your opinion, but britain was on it's arse before we joined.

the EU is heading further and further in the Superstate direction.

which is a bad thing because?...

It's based on the flawed idea of a common currency

Of course that WAS not our problem

if you take away member state's individual control over fiscal policy you eliminate ( many of ) the problems associated with the euro.

And increase the distance between individuals and those who are supposed to serve them.

"German Budget Surplus" exactly German budget surplus, not the entire 27 of which Merkel said the 24bn is nothing and the Eu are rather pissed they have all this money to them selves, but gloss over (edit avoid fines) somehow that its more than the EU rules set at 60% ,see the pattern they look after NO1, the figures I have here show a gbp contribution of 19bn and the German surplus being the same?

You need fiscal union which requires political union which is against the wishes of many including many supposedly pro Europeans

To pay for this, the EU had an agreed budget of €143 billion for the year 2014, representing around 1% of the EU-28's gross national income (GNI).[2] Prior to 2014, the EU had a budget of €864.3 billion for the period 2007–2013, representing 1.05% of the EU-27's GNI for the period.[3]

Our Brussels negotiating team comprises 100 people vs EU's 60 for example

Surprised they bothered with 60- we have so little leverage!

I wonder what the Eu would do there's going to be a big hole in their coffers

EU have got their next funding cycle sorted thanks to our 50bn exit bill! (tho I still reckon it'll be nearer 40- that's just the Times softening us up)

For jambalaya to sing:

I want to break free
I want to break free
I want to break free from your lies
You're so self satisfied I don't need you
I've got to break free
God knows, God knows I want to break free
I've fallen in love
I've fallen in love for the first time
And this time I know it's for real
I've fallen in love yeah
God knows God knows I've fallen in love
It's strange but it's true
I can't get over the way you love me like you do
But I have to be sure
When I walk out that door
Oh how I want to be free baby
Oh how I want to be free
Oh how I want to break free
But life still goes on
I can't get used to living without living without
Living without you by my side
I don't want to live alone hey
God knows got to make it on my own
So baby can't you see
I've got to break free
I've got to break free
I want to break free yeah
I want, I want, I want, I want to break free 😉

teamhurtmore - Member
You need fiscal union which requires political union which is against the wishes of many including many supposedly pro Europeans

Yep, that's what sorts the Euro most easily. Though I could happily live with a single European state - find it difficult to get worked up about it, but done right it could be excellent.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-michel-barnier-silly-brexit-negotiations-andrew-marr-a7926766.html ]Daves charm offensive continues[/url]

🙄

The Indy does a brilliant job at misrepresenting the tone of DD in his Marr interview - do they have an agenda?

A newspaper? With an agenda? Whatever next?

[img] [/img]

Who would have thought the Brexit Bulldog would need a paper to make him look bad...

Binners by the looks.of things. It was one of his (surprisingly) better performances this morning

(Apart from his weird chewing mannerism which looks v odd)

One of his better performances?

There's hardly a high benchmark, is there?

The Brexit Bill (such as it is) is due to be debated in parliament on Thursday. I expect that will fire the starting gun on a full on Tory leadership campaign/civil war

The interests of the Tory party being far more important than anything else at the moment, obviously

I imagine it's like getting half an hour with Ken without going full Godwin 🙂

I'm so glad that he can muster one not so bad performances, perhaps it's like Bojo managing not insult somebody foreign

I see that the economists [url= https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Economists-for-Free-Trade-NME-Paper.pdf ]Report[/url] published by Labour Leave campaign reveals what many of us knew all along, that the poorest would benefit most from leaving the EU

[i]The reduction in prices and immigration control are particularly important for lower income households. These households spend more on food and housing, the prices of both of which are raised substantially by EU protectionism. Unskilled immigrants settle in poor communities which, therefore, carry a disproportionate cost in public services as well as suffering from a fall in wages. Our estimates show that the lowest decile household would gain £36 a week from Brexit; the second lowest decile (60 per cent of the median) would gain £44 a week. These gures represent around 15 per cent of their weekly spend.[/i]

Still, i suppose what's best for Them is irrelevant if Kier and Hermione might miss out on ski season, yah?

Shame any rise will eaten up by the fall in the value of the pound...
Or closures to their employers

anyway

First published in Great Britain in September 2017 by
Leave Means Leave, Labour Leave and Economists for Free Trade

Report published by Labour Leave campaign

Factual and disinterested then ninfan. 🙄