If we had decent leadership, we wouldn't be having this referendum at all.Clover +1
If we had had decent leadership in the past, we would have had it before signing the Lisbon treaty, as we were promised.
You mean "as you do ..."?
I meant you are doing the same thing you are accusing us of.
molgrips - Member
You mean "as you do ..."?
I meant you are doing the same thing you are accusing us of.
Okay ... I see what you mean ... I see you ...
Are you referring to me saying you lot are inconsistent and yet I am inconsistent myself? 😆 (yes, no or some long answers will do but be specific otherwise I have to ask again before I answer and if I make the wrong assumption some sensitive blokes will report me left, right and centre ... )
Crikey, they live here temporarily with friends for visit and intend to start all over. They were told they could not hire them because they were from non-EU.
Start all over?
Drac - Moderator
Crikey, they live here temporarily with friends for visit and intend to start all over. They were told they could not hire them because they were from non-EU.
Start all over?
Yes, both from non-EU wanting to work in the UK/EU i.e. starting over as in starting a new life for economy reason nothing else. For money sort of things.
I'm lost now.
Drac - Moderator
I'm lost now.
Crikey ...
1. Both are from non-EU.
2. Both want to work in UK/EU.
They can apply for the job but practically zero chance of getting the job not because they are not qualified etc ...
They can apply for the job but practically zero chance of getting the job not because they are not qualified etc .
They have the same chance as anyone else.
No, they don't coz they were told that their chances of getting the jobs were slim to none straight to their face because they were from non-EU. Yes, they can apply like anyone else.Drac - Moderator
They have the same chance as anyone else.They can apply for the job but practically zero chance of getting the job not because they are not qualified etc .
No, they don't coz they were told that their chance of getting the jobs were slim to none. Straight to their face. Yes, they can apply like anyone else.
So you have an example of one employer.
😯 Run for the hills!Push come to shove I would put Sturgeon in charge
You said that whatyadoinsucka only sees what s/he wants to see. I'm saying you're doing that too.
Don't let the racists win, vote remain
Funny. All the Americans, Australians and South Africans just apply, interview then turn up and start working. I would say it's because they are white, just to keep the dullards happy. But the Syrians, Ghanaians, Nigerians, Ethiopians and Mexican i work with aren't.......
They are all articulate (usually in 3 or 4 languages, bastards) qualified and experienced though.
I would be silly to use one as example. Anyway, it's a common knowledge amongst non-EU people. Also there were companies who wanted to hire them but the bureaucrats said no because they were from non-EU and the job should be advertised in all over EU ... I mean ... c'mon why not advertised all over the world?Drac - Moderator
So you have an example of one one employer.No, they don't coz they were told that their chance of getting the jobs were slim to none. Straight to their face. Yes, they can apply like anyone else.
Funny. All the Americans, Australians and South Africans just apply, interview then turn up and start working.
Not sure if serious, but that won't be true. There is no open door to those countries afaik. They all need a way in, you can't just get off a plane and work.
I see ... I see what you mean. Might be very different I kid you not but that will detract from this thread.molgrips - Member
You said that whatyadoinsucka only sees what s/he wants to see. I'm saying you're doing that too.
The main barrier we have and we recruit from all over the world is arranging the work visa for non EU employees
The EU saves us money and red tape compared to dealing with everyone else
kimbers - MemberDon't let the racists win, vote remain
Reverse dog whistle politics.......brilliant.
I love the way some on the soft left agree with the right-wing bigots and, like them, choose to turn the whole EU debate into one about race.
kimbers - Member
The main barrier we have and we recruit from all over the world is arranging the [b]work visa[/b] for non EU employees
The [b]EU [/b]saves us money and [b]red tape[/b] compared to dealing with everyone else
This is the best example ^^^ ...
I rest my case. 😆
Thatcher said we were a nation of shopkeepers,
I think you're a bit confused there. Thatcher's dad WAS a shopkeeper. Napoleon is attributed with that quote (probably erroneously) and it probably originates with Adam Smith.
Have we done this yet? George Soros says a Leave vote would cause a big devaluation of the Pound:
I wonder if I should start buying Euros now...
I think you're a bit confused there. Thatcher's dad WAS a shopkeeper. Napoleon is attributed with that quote (probably erroneously) and it probably originates with Adam Smith.
More Brexit lies. 😉
Thatcher's dad WAS a shopkeeper.
Some geezer down my local who knows about this sort of stuff reckons Thatcher's maiden name was Margret Patel.
Some serious confusion on recruitment here. We have people from all over the globe. I've recruited UK, EU and Commonwealth citizens to the team.
UK and EU is straightforward - they still have to be qualified and be the best candidate for the job.
Non-EU just means a bit more work (for HR), but again no barrier at all to getting a job provided they're here legally and have the paperwork to show it.
chewkw - the folks that you know / know of... Perhaps they're being spun a line by someone who finds it easier to blame the EU rather than be honest with them, or perhaps they really aren't qualified, in which case that's no different to a UK citizen pitching up for a job that they're not qualified for
bencooper - Member
I wonder if I should start buying Euros now...
I see currency speculator(s) is at work ... 😆
[quote=ernie_lynch ] kimbers - Member
I love the way some on the soft left agree with the right-wing bigots and, like them, choose to turn the whole EU debate into one about race.
The fact that a member of their board has tweeted and retweeted racist material, including from the founder of the English Defence League, demonstrates the levels to which the leave campaign has stooped,” she said.
I am relived to see the hard left has stuck with the hard right and simply attacked the messenger rather than deal with the message and then added a straw man to it.
He said vote leave was racist. It either is or it isnt. Given the people you have attacked ,for racism, in vote leave you must accept that at least part of the campaign, and therefore part of the support, is indeed from racists. i think it helpful to term it all racist but its pretty evident which way the racists are voting and campaigning,
No offence to your good self as many on both sides are voting the same way as folk they abhor.Myself included
They are ALL legal here i.e. non are criminals and all with legal passport, why can't they openly said to the immigration officers they are here to seek job? I mean if there are no jobs for them they can go home but why tell them they cannot have the intention to seek employment here?rkk01 - Member
... provided they're here legally and have the paperwork to show it.
rkk01 - Member
chewkw - the folks that you know / know of... Perhaps they're being spun a line by someone who finds it easier to blame the EU rather than be honest with them, or perhaps they really aren't qualified, in which case that's no different to a UK citizen pitching up for a job that they're not qualified for
They are charted accountants so as qualified as any of your charted accountants ...
The other one is a scientist who finally got a job but having to endure a period of stress because of EU regulations ...
Yeah well I can vote leave and still fight racism. Us on the hard-left are sophisticated like that.
[quote=molgrips"]Not sure if serious, but that won't be true.If they are even being interviewed in the first place it means there is probably a justification for a non-EU employee. This makes the work visa application pretty straight forward (standardised rules/guidelines help too, as does a department to deal with this sort of stuff). We mostly get them within 8-12 weeks. Pretty much a standard industry notice period.
So yes. They do just get off a plane and work.
Unless they have a criminal record, dodgy past or something that would make a visa more difficult to obtain. In which case we wouldn't want them working for us either. EU, domestic or otherwise
Knowing Chewkw would probably be an employment stopper too.
Would you put that in writing if I were to apply to your company? 😛ghostlymachine - Member
Knowing Chewkw would probably be an employment stopper too.
Um. Chartered by who? An organisation recognised by the EU?They are charted accountants so as qualified as any of your charted accountants ...
I know many professions require conversion courses depending on where the degree/qualification came from and where you are going. Law, medicine, finance, education. And so on.
No employer is going to wait a year for that to happen.
On a lighter note, have we done this?
come on now ernie the offending tweets werent even dog whistle, just straight up racist, so i dont see how my use of that is reverse dog whistle
I like the way you are so quick to dismiss the racist hijack of VL that seems to have happened, especially in yorks, go on the bnp website, you get a pop up about defeating the EU superstate. VL using neonazis to man the yorkshire stalls, VL didnt bother to dissuade them.
Its obvious that the Gove/Bojo etc are more than happy for farige and the far right to stir up hatred and innocently reference it obliquely. because fear of immigration is what gives them their best results in opinion polls.
Crikey, you really have low expectation of non-EU people don't you?ghostlymachine - Member
They are charted accountants so as qualified as any of your charted accountants ...
Um. Chartered by who? An organisation recognised by the EU?
I know many professions require conversion courses depending on where the degree/qualification came from and where you are going. Law, medicine, finance, education. And so on.
Chartered by ALL the British institutions i.e. ACCA, ICWA, ACA whatever professional bodies you have they got it all ...
As for the scientist the qualification is from British Institution as well ...
Most that I know have British Qualifications !!! Most commonwealth people who are here have some form of qualifications that are either British or British recognised.
Yep, qualifications come in lots of different forms - not just from a college or professional institution.
Our firm is in science & engineering. We've always had a lot of people moving to / from Aus and NZ. Same language, similar degree set up and also similar legal systems. A number of folks also go to / from the US, particular tech experts and client contact types - but for most of us the very different legal system and way of dealing with regulators is a bit of a block. Not to say we couldn't transfer across, but more difficult case to make / other candidates better placed?
By the same store, transfer to say France or Germany would be difficult (not just language). Although the basic EU Directives that underpin environmental law are the same, both these countries have a very different regulatory approach
[quote=ernie_lynch ]Yeah well I can vote leave and still fight racism. Us on the hard-left are sophisticated like that.
I am sure you are, just as I can vote stay and still fight Tories, but you cannot negate the argument i just made.
[quote="chewkw"]Crikey, you really have low expectation of non-EU people don't you?Whut? I just have plenty of experience of the pitfalls. Even transferring between the UK, France, Germany, Spain etc requires a conversion in some fields. But you knew that. Oh. No you didn't. 😕
Chartered by ALL the British institutions i.e. ACCA, ICWA, ACA whatever professional bodies you have they got it all ...
As for the scientist the qualification is from British Institution as well ...
Most that I know have British Qualifications !!! Most commonwealth people who are here have some form of qualifications that are either British or British recognised.
Well, unless there are other factors here (legal status, criminal record etc) then I fail to see the issue. As stated, they'd need to be the best / most suitable candidate. IF they are being discriminated against, then it possibly says more about the person hiring than it does about the EU.
Over the last 20-30 yrs, many working class Brits have struggled to break in to the middle class professions - If your face doesn't fit / not one of us. For the large / reputable employers this has definitely changed over the last 5-10 yrs, and is one of the areas where EU membership has probably helped. It is the smaller employers / owner-manager types that tend to work along the "what I say goes" approach, which is why I am suspicious of the smaller businesses wanting to get out of EU and cut red tape.
ghostlymachine - Member
chewkw » Crikey, you really have low expectation of non-EU people don't you?
Whut? I just have plenty of experience of the pitfalls. Even transferring between the UK, France, Germany, Spain etc requires a conversion in some fields. But you knew that. Oh. No you didn't.
Imagine this ... they offered the scientist the job then backtracked by saying they needed to check the EU directives. Guess what they had to advertise again in EU etc ... then finally gave the scientist the job.
In other cases - Russian doctors I know have to convert their qualifications but that is normal ...
The chartered accounts both obtained qualifications through British Institutions. One had to go (dependent visa) because he was told the govt would not issue him the "work permit" even when was already working with the company! The company liked him but they just could not get work permit for him because company could not convince the bureaucrats!
rkk01 - Member
Well, unless there are other factors here (legal status, criminal record etc) ...
No criminal record.
All perfectly legal.
The only barriers ... EU employment rules!
One had to go (dependent visa) because he was told the govt would not issue him the "work permit" even when was already working with the company! The company liked him but they just could not get work permit for him because company could not convince the bureaucrats!
I think Vote Leave would regard that as "being in control of immigration"
sounds more like UK immigration rules to meThe only barriers ... EU employment rules!
My god, leavers are stupid. Newsnight just now:
"These young people, they don't know what it was like before we voted in. We were ok then, we'd be ok now". That's the whole argument.. 🙄
Evan Davies: "It doesn't bother you that the Prime Minister, the BoE Governor, the Chancellor, they all say we'll be poorer if we leave?"
Leaver: "No. They don't know any more than we do."
ED: "The Governor of the BoE, an economic specialist.. you don't think he knows more than you?"
L: "Yeah, but he doesn't know what it's like to walk round Sainsbury's and be surrounded by people on benefits spending tokens."
What the ****?
Others complaining about cancelled operations. As if that's the EU's fault? ****ing hell.
you must accept that at least part of the campaign, and therefore part of the support, is indeed from racists. i think it helpful to term it all racist
helpful to whom ???
he doesn't know what it's like to walk round Sainsbury's and be surrounded by people on benefits spending tokens
he probably doesn't know.
Or EU is not made up to be what they are supposed to be. Innit!rkk01 - Member
I think Vote Leave would regard that as "being in control of immigration"
Ya, good excuse that innit! Blame this and that. I was very surprised that the company could not even get past the immigration rules. I mean immigration rules dictate how the company should operate? 😆 Finally, he gave up and went home ...sounds more like UK immigration rules to me
So yes. They do just get off a plane and work.
You cannot just get off a plane and LOOK for work. They have to be the only applicant for a job that has previously been advertised and could not be filled by an EU citizen. At least in the case of the US they do.
For that to happen it has to be a pretty specialist role. So the fact that you see Americans, Canadians and Australians working here does not mean that it's easy - except for the young person visa for the last two iirc.
I like the way you are so quick to dismiss the racist hijack of VL that seems to have happened
Of course I'm not quick to dismiss the racist hijack of vote leave. It was evident right from the start that is exactly what would happen.
There was never any doubt that the left who are anti-EU wouldn't get an opportunity to express our opinions in the media.
And that is precisely what has happened.
But I'm not accepting this bollocks that you've got to vote leave to fight racism. Or that voting remain somehow means you're not a racist.
Tory voters at the present are split 50/50 over the EU, are you seriously suggesting that there aren't any racists among half of Tory voters who intend to vote remain? They are all perfectly happy with a black family moving in next to them, or their daughters marrying a black man ? Some might not have quite the same problem with Poles though.
And are the up to 40% of Labour voters who have considered voting leave really motivated primarily by racism ? If so why aren't they UKIP voters instead ?
I'm finding this constant claim by many on the soft-left that the UK is turning racist increasingly tedious. I am not aware of any country anywhere in the world which is LESS racist than the UK.
And the UK appears to be unique among all other comparable countries in that it has NEVER EVER elected a far-right neo-nazi MP to its national legislative. Can you think of any other European country which can make that same proud boast?
Last Thursday in a by-election in London UKIP received 1.6% of the vote - 507 votes. The only other petty racist bigot party, the English Democrats, received precisely 50 votes (0.2%). Proper full-on racists like the BNP didn't even bother standing. Is this really proof that Britain is facing a threat from racists?
And quite apart from the UK being the least racist country in the world it is also one of the most diverse and multicultural in the world. How many can you think of that are more so?
So by all means fight racism, it should always be fought, but stop your ridiculous overstated scaremongering.
flanagaj - Member
BSers have been able to tap into the soft underbelly of xenophobia and racism that exists in our society
I hear this boring argument from the remain all the time and it has become soooooo tiresome. Just because you want to have control over immigration does not mean you are a closet racist! Please stop pedaling this overdone and simplistic viewpoint.
POSTED 3 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
And yet, you boys have yet to produce any real eveidence that immigration is the root of any problem, you pretend that it has a negative impact on wages (wrong), employment (wrong), services (wrong) and as appealing as the idea might sound to a xenophobe, the evidence is unsurprisingly lacking. So what is one left with as conclusion,....?
If there is no evidence to back up the claims, the only real fear is that of foreigners per se ie xenophobia or simple ignorance. You guys decide.
Alternatively post any decent evidence that suggests that immigration is having a statistically significant, negative impact of our economy or social lives....
Three days left......
[quote=TurnerGuy ]you must accept that at least part of the campaign, and therefore part of the support, is indeed from racists. i think it helpful to term it all racist
helpful to whom ???
i DONT think it helpful to term it all racist but its pretty evident which way the racists are voting and campaigning,
Apologies for the omission. Not all of leave is racist , some is and some is not. I dont think its helpful, in general, to call leave racist nor is it helpful to deny its there for at least some of the supporters/campaigners.
A simple question where can you find EU jobs advertised in the UK?
I mean is there a place where all EU jobs are advertised?
Where from? I want to see basic to high end job?
People keep saying we have to advertise in EU etc before the job can be offered etc but I have not seen any EU job advertised ...
chewkw - genuinely trying to be helpful here. Sounds like someone is bullshitting your mates. AFAIK EU influence on our immigration policy / controls is limited to the free movement of EU citizens. If your friends are non-EU then I can only see that the issues they are having are with UK immigration, not EU.
In the 10 years I've been with my current company I have worked with (at least / top of my head):
British
Australian
New Zealand
South African
Canadian
French
Dutch
Belgian
Irish
Polish
Italian
Spanish
American
Iraqi
And probably a few more besides. A good mix of EU and non EU.
Have you considered addressing the point that has been made- he never claimed that straw man- rather than making your own point?are you seriously suggesting that there aren't any racists among half of Tory voters who intend to vote remain?
By any neutral estimation of the campaign/support its pretty clear which way has been the more racist not least because you yourself have criticised vocal leave campaigners on here for being racist.
you pretend that it has a negative impact on wages (wrong),
Picked you up on this already THM, but thats incorrect - it has no net negative impact on [i]average[/i] wages. Very different thing. See Nickell and Saleheen research for BOE
Apologies for the omission. Not all of leave is racist , some is and some is not. I dont think its helpful, in general, to call leave racist nor is it helpful to deny its there for at least some of the supporters/campaigners.
Tory MP (Jenkin?) on Ch4 News tonight was pushed on this - and he admitted that he found the UKIP poster racist. Quite a thing to say on camera, and it only came out after the Labour MP clarified that she wasn't calling him racist, just elements that had attached to the Brexit side of the campaign
Have you considered addressing the point that has been made- he never claimed that straw man- rather than making your own point?
No, I'm more interested in making my own point. But thanks for the suggestion.
rkk01 - Member
chewkw - genuinely trying to be helpful here. Sounds like someone is bullshitting your mates. AFAIK EU influence on our immigration policy / controls is limited to the free movement of EU citizens. If your friends are non-EU then I can only see that the issues they are having are with UK immigration, not EU
Thanks dude. I do not know whose policy that was coz that was several years ago. Anyway, they are home now ...
From your list only two nationalities might have "problems" ...
American
Iraqi
The rest are from EU or ancestral related to UK so naturally have rights to work here once ancestral links are proven. Even for the American or Iraqi if they can prove ancestral links they are in ...
Several companies not happy with Vote Leave using them in it's leaflets. Nissan taking them to court. Oops.
Cmon ninfan enlighten me then..,.
We both know that the widely misquoted BOE study doesn't say what you boys claim it does. Try another source.....
It's a central theme in your thesis so there must be loads of evidence to back it up...no really
Pleasure THM
[i]Not surprisingly, the results show that there are clear differences, in the impact of immigration on wages, across occupations. The static results suggest that the [u]statistically significant negative effects of immigration on wages are concentrated among skilled production workers, and semi/unskilled service workers.[/u] In the latter cases, the coefficients indicates that a 10 percentage point rise in the proportion of immigrants working in semi/unskilled services — that is, in care homes, bars, shops, restaurants, cleaning, for example — leads to a 1.88 percent reduction in pay.
What should we make of this finding? Our earlier investigation into the facts about immigration unveiled that low-skill occupations, such as semi-unskilled services, had witnessed the largest increases in immigration in recent years. If immigrants in these occupations earn less than natives, the 1.88 percent negative impact of immigration on wages reported above could simply reflect compositional changes within the occupation, towards a higher share of (lower paid) immigrants. The compositional effect will be determined by the wage differential between immigrants and natives within occupations.16 A simple hourly wage equation suggests that, in semi/unskilled services, immigrants earn 5.4 percent less than natives (Table 6).17 In other words a 10% rise in immigration alone, would lead to a 0.54 percent fall in wages — that is the size of the compositional effect. [u]It is striking that the compositional effect is small when compared to the large impact of 1.88 percent reported above. From this we conclude that the impact of immigration on wages in semi/unskilled services is much larger than can be accounted for by purely compositional effects, suggesting that the vast majority of this effect refers to the impact on native workers.[/u]
[/i]
Don't stop there.....and......?
Just back from pub watching the game, just confirmed two new Leavers, happy days.
Interesting NHS story from someone on the inside, many EU workers are not the best choice as visa application process and particularly visa duration (eg lasts only 3 years) means its easier to hire from EU. EU thus encouraging substandard hiring via protectionism. This person is voting Leave.
So we have now had 4 people post the same Prof video (with note that last poster acknowledged it may be a duplicate). Shows how much attention Remainers are actually paying
TMH all those vote Leavers who believe uncontrolled immigration is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc. Thats their view - full stop. If people want to pursude them otherwise then the burden of proof is on them. Clearly they've failed as people are firm in their view and intention to vote Leave.
As for the "why are we even haiving the referendum" ? How extraordinarily anti-democratic and patronising that statement is. We absolutely should have a Referendum on such issues whixh are vital to the country. We should have more such votes on important issues, the notion that everything should be delegated to Parliament is bizarre.
TMH all those vote Leavers who believe uncontrolled immigration is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc. Thats their view - full stop. If people want to pursude them otherwise then the burden of proof is on them. Clearly they've failed as people are firm in their view and intention to vote Leave.
Fair point but as remain supporters can find a heap of info that makes the claims bs or insignificant then perhaps you could enlighten us with some good facts.
If not I'll go with the "view" that you are sat there with your finges in your ears going "lalalalalalalalalallala" while watching a sideshow of farages best Alan partridge moments from the battle of the Thames.
all those vote Leavers who believe uncontrolled immigration is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc. Thats their view - full stop
You remind us daily how its not important to have views that are factually accurate or supported by the evidence hece why you repeat the lie of uncontrolled.
jambalaya - MemberJust back from pub watching the game, just confirmed two new Leavers, happy days.
Are you sure they weren't thinking "FFS, how can we get this man to stop?" ?
The STW Remainers in a majority here, so therefore feel it's fair game to gang up on others with smart ass comments and generally baseless insults.
Pathetic.
No wonder they are voting to remain, it's synonymous with their weak mentality.
Pathetic.No wonder they are voting to remain, it's synonymous with their weak mentality.
Trying to be ironic?
Honestly we just want some of the magic proof or evidence that people are smoking. Every time a claim is made there seems to be either no evidence or evidence that contradicts it. YOu must forgive us all for just wanting to know the truth, maybe if we all did we might be considering voting out too.
oh and don't confuse ernie with the remain side....
Interesting NHS story from someone on the inside, many EU workers are not the best choice as visa application process and particularly visa duration (eg lasts only 3 years) means its easier to hire from EU. EU thus encouraging substandard hiring via protectionism. This person is voting Leave.
We should hire UK nationals, right? Only there aren't enough of them - good job the EU makes it easier to hire from abroad, huh.
Are you sure they weren't thinking "FFS, how can we get this man to stop?" ?
😀
I didn't raise the topic, it was btw we have decided to vote leave because
We should hire UK nationals, right? Only there aren't enough of them - good job the EU makes it easier to hire from abroad, huh.
I think Jambalaya's point was that being in the EU makes it hard to hire good people from outside the EU, so we end up hiring duffers from inside the EU to make up the numbers because they are easier to get.
I'm not entirely convinced though - the rules about who can come here from outside the EU are entirely our own government's choosing.
feel it's fair game to gang up on others with smart ass comments and generally baseless insults.Pathetic.
No wonder they are voting to remain, it's synonymous with their weak mentality.
It still better than the alternative vision you offer which is dumb ass comments and generally baseless insults 😉
Oh the ironing.
We should hire UK nationals, right? Only there aren't enough of them - good job the EU makes it easier to hire from abroad, huh.
Yep vote leave and make it harder to recruit anyone for the skills shortage - ie the French/Italian/Spanish/Polish Nurse has to jump through all the same hoops as the Indian one.
Also in medicine/dental etc. you need qualifications with equivalence, the EU provides that many other countries require additional training etc. my housemate is a dentist here (Oz) and was going through the hassle of working in various countries and the difficulty of not having his qualification accepted.
In previous jobs where a lot of temporary staff were used big companies pass that recruitment onto an agency to do that for them, they pick form their existing pool where they can but also advertise in case someone better arrives, it's more cost effective and efficient than having to go through the process for every person. The EU is like out agency pool, we can pull what we need from it to balance out needs very easily.
TMH all those vote Leavers who believe [b]uncontrolled [/b]immigration
Believe what?
is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc
Clearly not. What a futile exercise...
That's their view - full stop. If people want to pursude them otherwise then the burden of proof is on them.
😀
Clearly they've failed as people are firm in their view and intention to vote Leave.
Blame others for the ignorance of the Xenophobes, no really....say that to the anti-Semites in the Labour Party.
As for the "why are we even haiving the referendum" ? How extraordinarily anti-democratic and patronising that statement is. We absolutely should have a Referendum on such issues whixh are vital to the country. We should have more such votes on important issues, the notion that everything should be delegated to Parliament is bizarre.
Did anyone mention burden of proof? The absurd and shameful nature of the VL campaign explains why referendums are not always what they are cracked up to be. (The delay in investment and uncertainty created so far is bad enough. )
TMH all those vote Leavers who believe uncontrolled immigration is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc. Thats their view - full stop. If people want to pursude them otherwise then the burden of proof is on them. Clearly they've failed as people are firm in their view and intention to vote Leave.
I see not much has changed durng my little 'holiday'.
From a friends FB share:
I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name.I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.
Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:
It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.
Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11620356/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-thousands-fleeing-Britain-each-year.html )
(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/immigration-could-overwhelm-britain-says-pro-brexit-minister-andrea-leadsomLie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.
Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973
Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law
You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.
Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.
So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.
Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week
This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:Lie #5.1 £350m a week.
Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…
Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect
This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the ****ers never turn up.
( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-european-parliament-votes-of-any-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html )Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]
£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back
49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_UnionLie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it
First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?
Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals
Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way
Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”Lie #9 [Special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]
What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.
Go anywhere nice Dr or was it one of those STW "holidays" (cough) ?
Rephrased for Ernie.... Don't let the racists/xenophobes win, vote remain 😕
At least some people aren't being complacent
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/21/mps-investigate-far-right-wake-jo-cox-killing
Fascinating the discourse around lack of democracy being part of EU. In the UK we have an unelected head of state and an unelected second chamber of parliament but I never hear anyone on here/leave politicians arguing about this too. Surely if lack of democracy was such a big deal you'd want to change the lack of it at home first?
Build bridges, not fences. I've lived my life that way and I'm not about to stop. I'm voting in because I believe in peace, justice and human rights.
But, having an eye for detail, I'm interested to know how - given we have the capacity to negotiate maybe a couple of trade deals at any given time - we're going negotiate all these supposed new ones with the rest of the world? And renegotiate all our trade with the EU? I think the total number of deals Switzerland is working on with the EU was around 120 and some of them are still ongoing... didn't they start in 1972?
How many more civil servants will we need?