But if people are hoodwinked into changing their minds
how is that happening?, did you read the Curtice report?
people are changing their minds because the economic benefits the brexiters promised dont seem to be appearing
they feel their pockets are lighter, they see the libraries & youth centres are still closed, they see less police, longer NHS wait times, more crime, they see the shambles in government conceding to the EU on every single point..... people dont want this to get any worse
when kinnock said that the wind really fell out of of Raabs sails
So you are all for suppressing debate then kelvin. If you can’t see the parallels between yS BS and leavers BS then you have a problem.
not yet kimbers but will look later. Can’t see how Brexit makes much difference to your list of woes either way. That’s just reverse Brexshitting
but I look foreward to the shrill calls about polling methods given
The author of the poll urged caution over the finding, however, saying the interview panel was skewed towards remain, and that some of the shift was among those who did not take part in the original Brexit referendum.
it does get better 😀
THM, before you came back this thread could easily drop off the front page only returning once something had happened.
Now it's bouncing off the top every minute you are awake.
If someone says something that doesn't fit in with your particular world view just call them a ****er.
You dont need to respond to every post. Move on with your life.
Can’t see how Brexit makes much difference to your list of woes either way. That’s just reverse Brexshittining
curtice says people want to see economic benefits of brexit, thats no t happened yet, infact the reverse, which is why its no longer seen as the solutiuon, by some
Shut down debate @teamhurtmore? No.
Youe snide SNP comments are so childish in this thread… and I'm not an SNP supporter, not in favour of Scottish independence, not Scottish, and don't live North of the border… so I have no skin in the game… so I'm calling out your troll bullshit. Go and make those comments in another thread.
and that some of the shift was among those who did not take part in the original Brexit referendum
Pssst - if we have another referendum, the make up of the electorate would have changed… time marches on… some people reach voting age… some people will decide not to vote that did before… some will be motivated to vote who didn't before…
…any way… all polls are flawed, we can all agree on that.
You seem to like and over use the word “troll” kelvin. Becoming a cliche
I’ll leave the “****” comments to you zippy (and NW). Hope the choccie market is ok
kimbers we all want the economy to prosper. My point was that the woes you highlight are not directly related to Brexshit. They existed before and will probably exist after. Unless you are claiming that reversing Brexshit will solve them. Is a bus free?!?!
Hope the choccie market is ok
So, that wasn't trolling zippykona? Right… honest concern for his livelihood, I'm sure.
I'm out of this thread for a while. Enjoy.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">teamhurtmore
<div class="bbp-author-role">
<div class=""><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 0.8rem;">Please don’t play the shut down debate card on this thread of all places. </span></div>
</div>
</div>
Huh? How do you match that with...
<div class="bbp-reply-author">teamhurtmore</div>
<div class="bbp-reply-content">debate: pathetic and misplaced
</div>
I is confused.
But if people are hoodwinked into changing their minds then that is a different matter.
What about if they were hoodwinked into voting for something in the first place that had no realistic possibility of ever happening?
Paraphrasing Mervyn Kings point - which I tend to agree with.
What about if they were hoodwinked into voting for something in the first place that had no realistic possibility of ever happening?
Its not specifically a something though .....more a pick n mix....
Lots of diverse promises but all promised along side Brexit.... or Brexit positioned as the answer
Brexit + No immigrants claiming benefits
Brexit + No immigrants stealing your jobs
Brexit + complete and utter sovereignty...
Brexit + however many million to the NHS
Brexit + countries falling over themselves to do trade deals that were favourable to us and not them...
It was a pretty endless list of woes and solutions that a movement simply claimed to have a single panacea for.
Choose a complaint with the current state of the UK and Brexit was the answer.
Indeed in the words of THM
My point was that the woes you highlight are not directly related to Brexshit. They existed before and will probably exist after.
Indeed the woes that the myriad Brexit factions claimed to address had little to do with the EU and were not ever going to be solved by by Brexit ... and some are simply unsolvable.
It was very specific. Do you want to remain a member of the EU or leave. Simple and clear. The majority of voters indicated that they wanted to end membership.
That advisory thing? Sound - opinions heard, let's move on.
Do you want to remain a member of the EU or leave.
Excellent. So no objection to joining Schengen and the EEA.
THM is correct - Sir John urged caution. Here is how the ES reported it (and yes the ES is not as Brexmaniac as say the Telegraph - but the direct quote of Sir John stands).
The author of the report, polling expert John Curtice, added a note of caution, saying that their panel of interviewees reported they had voted 53 percent in favour of Remain in the original vote - a higher proportion than in the actual vote.
On June 23 2016, 52 percent of the voters backed leaving the EU while 48 per cent backed staying. Many opinion polls were wrong about the result.
But he added: "Nevertheless, this still means that there has apparently been a six-point swing from Leave to Remain, larger than that registered by any of our previous rounds of interviewing, and a figure that would seemingly point to a 54 percent (Remain) vote in any second referendum held now."
So caution - but still an 8 point win for remain. And the trends keep on trending.
By the time we leave the only folk in favour of Brexit will be the EU. 😜
Schengen???
Schengen???
Not related to the referendum, apparently.
26 countries in Schengen only 22 are eu members
thm either hasn't read all the explanations against the validity of the 'yes to Brexit' vote, or he has but doesn't understand them, or does understand them but chooses to ignore them, or chooses to ignore them and wait so he can trot out that robotic little claim just to annoy everybody.
Perhaps he's related to jhj.
If Brexit is so clear, then why are Brexiteers are getting so uptight about the prospect of BRINO (Brexit In Name Only)?
It will be a betrayal of the British people and of democracy if our government refuse to accept that time moves on, opinions charge and the “will of the people” may we’ll not be what it was over 2 years ago.
Not even the electorate is the same.
26 countries in Schengen only 22 are eu members
Precisely. I drove from Germany to Switzerland in the summer - straight through the border with no checks. Meanwhile, Norway has committed to the four freedoms because it is part of the EEA.
Dear Michael Smith,
Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “Rescind Art.50 if Vote Leave has broken Electoral Laws regarding 2016 referendum”.
https://petition.parliament.<wbr />uk/petitions/223729
The debate is scheduled for 10 September 2018.
Once the debate has happened, we’ll email you a video and transcript.
Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament
Did anyone else get that?
Yes.
Precisely. I drove from Germany to Switzerland in the summer – straight through the border with no checks. Meanwhile, Norway has committed to the four freedoms because it is part of the EEA.
Not quite the whole story, i was stopped by French police leaving Switzerland, there is still a customs border and that means duty free applies. Yes you are free as a person to cross but goods and possessions aren't free to cross. Unlike crossing from the NI to the RoI for example.
ah well whats an extra £2bn pissed up the wall
Whose paying for the aircraft insurance? the pilots licences etc once we crash out of Open skies?
Not quite the whole story, i was stopped by French police leaving Switzerland, there is still a customs border and that means duty free applies.
Because they have not yet ratified EFTA. The queue of goods lorries waiting to cross should disabuse anyone of the notion that our Brexit transition will be smooth.
Because they have not yet ratified EFTA. The queue of goods lorries waiting to cross should disabuse anyone of the notion that our Brexit transition will be smooth.
Consider the Turkish EU border, Why should a country with no deal with the EU expect a smoother border than one with a limited customs agreement?
Anyone with an modicum of sense should understand that Dover is screwed in the event of a hard brexit or anything short of full SM and CU membership.
Project yellowhammer...... gov departments forced to raid existing budgets to pay for no deal planning
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1037661665142206465
but the £350M.....
Project yellowhammer…… gov departments forced to raid existing budgets to pay for no deal planning
Commonly referred to as Robbing Peter to pay Paul
It’s alright next year they can make budget shortfalls by selling visas and citizenship’s
maybe a few prole hunting parties
Commonly referred to as Robbing Peter to pay Paul
That assumes that Peter and Paul both have a point and something to contribute, so I would disagree with the metaphor.
But it sounds snappier than:
"Robbing Peter then burning the money in front of his face to prove a non-point".
It not a million miles away from burning your own Nike trainers when you think about it.....
Anyone with an modicum of sense should understand that Dover is screwed in the event of a hard brexit
And folkestone, Hull, Southampton, Edinburgh and any other port where goods are shipped to the EU, not to mention air freight.
Dover is the big one for volume though, just remember how operation stack goes.
and the gov is worried that (freight/ port?) companies will go bust in hard brexit !!!
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1037676209679859714
Or an alternative view - why are ABP investing in Nortern Ports RIGHT NOW
https://www.ft.com/content/cb5bafd8-af7a-11e8-8d14-6f049d06439c
Still, who needs alternative/good news when there's a result to be nullified?
The bad news ..I'm ****ed if there's a No Deal.
The good news ...I had a nice lunch.
They don't quite balance out.
Paywalled. Still, at least putting a link is a step in the right direction, even if it doesn't work.
Is this the same story?
https://truckerworld.uk/2018/09/northern-uk-ports-prepare-for-freight-boost-after-brexit/
Because that suggests they're investing up North because down South won't be able to handle the volume, what with Brexit clogging up ports. I don't see that as an overwhelming win.
https://www.ft.com/content/cb5bafd8-af7a-11e8-8d14-6f049d06439c
Ports in northern England are preparing for an influx of freight as shipping companies seek alternatives to Dover after Brexit as fears mount of lengthy delays at the main sea links with the Continent.
Easy it's in the first paragraph of the article. The projected massive problems at Dover mean having access to more ports is better however its a longer sea journey etc.
Brexit still means we need to import stuff. It will just cost us more.
Paywall on the article.
abp have been updating their ports for a while think hull and soton were recent announcements. If memory serves soton does the transatlantic/China route for containers to the south east.
Ports and airports are generally in a state of constant renewal as the craft and goods volume change. Really the road, communications and rail infrastructure should be in a state of continuous improvement too..
Heathrow have been trying to add another runway for years. This is not to handle Brexit exodus capacity....
as crane updates, new roads, port dredging etc take years to plan and execute if the ports are announcing right now it’s too late for March
Thms link says that extra capacity added for a while in northern ports, but now more to handle southern port delays from brexit
It does add 12 hours to journey time, but drivers can use this time to fill in all the extra paperwork they'll have !!!
Yeah sounds just like a brexit win to me 🤔
It does however show the importance of linking your sources 😂👌👌
So we can all see what your talking about, I guess we would never have spotted that it wasn't a good news story otherwise.
I guess we would never have spotted that it wasn’t a good news story otherwise.
Its s a good news story in the way that some of the ports are being renewed with an aim to keep them up to date. The fact that this is news shows the sad state that we expect critical assets to be maintained.
Its also good that private industry are starting to solve problems that our glorious leaders have not begun to think about let alone address.
its very bad news that any of this contingency is required and that the planning is so late.
Look you lot, Hull is my private route to the Alps. I don’t need your no-deal-Brexit backlogs spilling over into Yorkshire. Keep the gridlock in the south where it belongs. 😉
Weighing in - I’m in*
*this is just an excuse to try and bag the 50,000th post on this thread!
Was that 50k?
Do we get a new referendum at 100k?
this one ?
Ha! Ahah ahaha, I totally sniped it. Been waiting for this moment for weeks.
Now I’m famous, I’d like to take my opportunity in the spotlight to make my opinion heard, then exit stage left.
The referendum was a balls up. We’re in the sticky brown gravy, and despite what any of us say, you can’t change it. If there is another vote then you get another chance, but for now we’re riding towards oblivion with a bunch of goons at the helm.
Im in, will always be in, and whatever happens, I hold leave voters responsible for being so gullible.
At 100k posts I’ll update my feelings.
nope , you are 50001 .
Ha! Ahah ahaha, I totally sniped it
Well, with 3 posts after your claimed 50k one, the heading at the top of the page says 50,001 and the index listing says 50,002. So I think igm or cchris2lou may have got it?
Edit, cchris2lou posted while I writing - now 5 posts, and the index says 50,004 and the top of the page says 50,002.
IGM [s]Ninja![/s] CClou.
See the bottom of page 1250, see the post count for that page. See who posted last.
Or, 1250 pages, 40 posts per page. See who posted last.
IGM got 50,000th reply.
Never mind the 50k, I do agree with your analysis, cakeandcheese.
Sixty Conservative MPs are to launch a plan to take down Theresa May's Chequers deal this weekend, with series of reports setting out how a 'clean' Brexit will work.
The plans will argue for a free trade agreement, and present solutions to the Northern Irish question and vexed issues like farming and agriculture.
One source told The Telegraph that the plans – running to over 100 pages – will seek to deal once and for all with the Northern Irish issue to offer a solution to unlock the talks.
The 60 MPs in the European Research Group, led by Jacob Rees-Mogg, want to neutralise the European Union's criticism that ensuring there is no hard border with Northern Ireland means Britain must stay closely tied to the EU.
The papers will be released over four days starting from Sunday.
The BBC reported today that the papers will address money and migration on Monday, followed by a key paper on Northern Ireland on Wednesday.
Paywall but you can register to read.....
After 2 years of straining on the pot they have decided to shit, should be good reading next week
That's hilarious, 60 MPs conspiring and plotting and waiting for the perfect moment to... er, destroy the unworkable Chequers deal that fell apart the day after it was announced.
Well in the spirit of being pedantic (It is that thread) it was dead before they went to the country house and we don't need no Belgian Hurcule what's his name to point that one out.
In an Ed Balls style the department charged with implementing yellowhammer doesn't know how to search on Twitter ....
https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1037670433615687680?s=19
Sixty Conservative MPs are to launch a plan
Still no plan.
https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1037808680975179777
Let's see if we can work out why they aren't revealing their cunning plan that cannot fail....
There isn't one.
Or maybe there is? Maybe not having a plan is part of the plan. I mean, when you're basically reduced to playing chicken with the EU, then seeming a bit mad might work to our advantage. Such is the strange Looking Glass world we now inhabit. Maybe we're trying to be like the slightly unhinged kid at school who no one was ever really 'mates' with but you let him hang around with you anyway because you were a bit scared what he might do if you didn't. The one who always won at games like 'hold your hand over the candle' - like something out of a Shane Meadows film.
The thing is, I never liked playing chicken.........
haha - two months - long enough for the halfwits to forget about Boris's latest headlines?
Yep several journos have been saying that hes clearing the decks of bad news now, so that his leadership bid can go ahead b4 xmas
I think I've worked out which of the ERG wrote the report;
Success is made possible by staying ignorant.
Or something.
New DExEU minister, same wilful ignorance in the job.
https://twitter.com/jmpsimor/status/1037616065625374721
Tick. Tock.
The bastion of Britishness that is the Last Night of the Proms seemed to have more EU flags than Union Jacks...:)
I know! Quite tickled by that. 🙂
Jesus wept. When are we going to take to the streets and burn these ****ers to the ground?
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1038489695439806464
Survey of the 3 largest unions show 2:1 in favour of a new referendum and the same ratio for staying in the eu
Aahh the former Foreign Secretary appears to be on his own...
I love that
It really is mind boggling that as the Tories make an absolute pigs ear of the negotiating plus stabbing each other in the back, it really should be an open goal for labour but instead they seem intent on tearing themselves apart.
meanwhile us plebs are left with incompetent politicians dragging us down god knows what path, and the ones who got us in the position will not feel the pinch with whatever scenario we end up with when the dust settles. How any voter can still have faith in the tories after the last two years is bizarre, but when the only credible alternative is the labour debacle I can see why. The Lib Dem’s could have capitalised but Vince Cable is about as dynamic and vibrant as a mound of granite. In reality the SNP, regardless of the underlying aim of the party, have pretty much been the only voice of sanity throughout
SNP. Agreed Bob, when they look like the adults in the room (and they do - THM I’m looking at you) we should all worry.
Said as a Scots ex-pat / Yorkshire immigrant.
If you think that then look to yourself my friend 😉 you much have missed a lot of recent news
(FWIW my grown up comments have never been directed at politicians of any party. They are directed at those who do the real work.
As an aside, I was playing golf with a German lawyer in France last night (by chance) who agreed with me on that point. But he was equally mystified at Merkel’s approach to immigration and raised an eyebrow at me when I said I was 100% in favour of FoM!!)
If you think that then look to yourself my friend 😉 you much have missed a lot of recent news
We all know you have a permanent rager for all things SNP and Indy Ref, but Salmond hasn't been an MP for some time.
If you think that then look to yourself my friend you much have missed a lot of recent news
(FWIW my grown up comments have never been directed at politicians of any party. They are directed at those who do the real work.
As an aside, I was playing golf with a German lawyer in France last night (by chance) who agreed with me on that point.
Never in the field of human history has so much been said without a single specific point being made. If you're referring to Bob's comment, you are deluded if you think the negotiations are going well.
As an aside, I was playing golf with a German lawyer in France last night (by chance) who agreed with me on that point.
His opinion was of extraordinary value due to his scratch handicap.