[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

No that is not the Varoufakis message - he was talking about forecasts. What we understand are the dynamics of how things work. So questions remain (unanswered)...

But as we know the "control" argument is essentially bollocks too. We have considerable sovereignty and control over the principle instruments that governments can use to affect the economy.

Hence the OUT campaign has to rely on vague statements, attacks on individuals and institutions (that ironically they expect to deliver the control they mistakenly seek) and xenophobia

Website still unchanged today, so we can add BLATANT lies to this too.

So the new leader will come from a list of people who deliberately treat the truth and us with complete contempt. Marvellous. What a bright future to look forward to!?!?!

DrJ - Member

Well, you've got me convinced. Almost.

Do you need me to explain the situation in Greece and the collapse of their economy due to the failure of the EZ project, which was obvious from the start?

True. But we are not part of the EZ are we?

We are talking about a very different form of relationship.

jambalaya - Member
Right you are, forgot how small Ireland is too 4.5m. Slovenia, Latvia, Lithuania, Cyprus etc - quite what voice you think Scotland as an independent country and new member would have I don't know, plus you need to get past the Spain/Basque/Catalonian politics - I can see a big fat veto there.

If theres an out vote the basque/catalan question becomes irrelevant. Scotland wouldn't be the one leaving anything.

teamhurtmore - Member

True. But we are not part of the EZ are we?

The relevant question is are we affected by it?

I do find it odd that you are happy to accept that our European leaders have right royally ****ed up a huge part of the EU project, but then are totally trusting of them to look after everything else.

mikewsmith - Member

So please give me your top 5 laws the eu forced on the UK that we couldn't veto.
Points off for mixing up the eu and echr

Sorry, this is getting confusing with you answering on behalf of DrJ.
That and I'm still awaiting a comment on Juncker's dislike for democracy.
You really can't see the wood for the trees, can you?

Which country do you think the EU army will invade first?

Which country do you think the EU army will invade first?

I'd be more worried about which they would be invited to defend, and the ramifications of such.

NATO refused to become involved in both South Ossetia/Georgia and Ukraine (rightly so IMO) - I have no faith whatsoever that an EU force would not have been dragged into these, (ultimately) internal cultural conflicts.

That and I'm still awaiting a comment on Juncker's dislike for democracy.

As I've said on the Greece threads, I think that democracy has more or less died in the EU and naked power is ruling, hence the steamrollering of Greece. But given that the UK is not part of the EZ and in any case is big enough not to be squished as Greece was, on the whole I prefer Juncker to the neo-lib lackeys that the electorate of the UK foist on us.

Main reason is that the current system and allegiances are clearly not working, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. If this is what we want to continue, then vote stay.

teamhurtmore - Member

So the new leader will come from a list of people [b]from both sides[/b] who deliberately treat[b]ed[/b] the truth and us with complete contempt. Marvellous. What a bright future to look forward to!?!?!

FIFY 😉

The underlying issue as I currently perceive it is that generally, the masses here in the UK are fat and happy, with just enough thumbscrew tweaking to make sure that most of the wealth, cash, money, assets is put back into the financial system, that lines the pockets of themselves and the elected minority.

There's not enough pain for anyone to want to change anything. Much fear is spread by their media chums, just to keep us being a little bit scared of change. Fear.... Makes you think eh? 😉

The relevant question is are we affected by it?

Yes the whole world is.

I do find it odd that you are happy to accept that our European leaders have right royally **** up a huge part of the EU project, but then are totally trusting of them to look after everything else.

It is odd because it is a non-sequiter. By the Euro project, I assume you mean the single currency. In that respect, you are correct. Flawed in design and execution, the euro project has compounded the negative impacts of economic weakness caused by other factors. It has been crippling for those economies with weak labour dynamics as they only means of adjustment has been (1) massive wage deflation, (2) higher unemployment (3) both. That has been an appalling spectacle. So far so bad, but at least your argument holds to this point,

Now for the flaw. I understand well that the same people who are responsible for this debacle are not looking after everything else. Far from it. We have had flexiblity to adjust our own interest rates, monetary supply, FX rate, taxes, government spending etc. We have had control over these areas - to the extent that any control is limited in a global economy. So the two parts of your points do not follow, so I agree, I would find that odd to if they did. But that is part of the Brexit "Control" BS.

Now it is also ironical that even with control over the key instruments of policy, we are still making mistakes (UK and elsewhere), largely because those in power have misdiagnosed the root caused (too much leverage) and therefore are implementing the wrong solutions. But that has SFA to so with the Euro debate.

The underlying issue as I currently perceive it is that generally, the masses here in the UK are fat and happy,

And you are complaining?? 😯 But wait a minute...

There's not enough pain for anyone to want to change anything.

Confused? Me too...

Much fear is spread by their media chums, just to keep us being a little bit scared of change. Fear.... Makes you think eh?

No it makes me shake my head in disbelief.

I do wonder about people who question the 'fear' of change spread by sections of the media, yet, at the same time, seem quite happy to accept the word of a notoriously self-serving American-resident Australian media owner, with his own dubious agenda, when he says the sky will fall in if we remain in the EU

I question those that want to stay within a system that supports huge debt from Grexit, Cyprus, potential issues with Italy and Spain. Our imports to EU have dropped and if we leave the EU fails. I love Europe. I even holidayed in Belgium this week but I want to VOTE, a say if I want Brussels to decide rules, legislation, laws that affect other countries. I also think MEPs etc are very expensive. There are ALOT of threats from pro EU. Just shows the mark of the in camp tbh.

When we first joined, the EU was a tighter trading block of partners. Now it's expansionist, taking in weak countries in an almost suicidal dive to stop Russia's interests at the expense of future stability.

Tbh the EU should have been just UK, France & Germany with a handful of the strongest. Not anyone and everyone.

I hate the bollocks trotted out 'we need people to do the jobs that others don't want to do'. Utter crap. It means vast competition for even the most basic jobs. You either suck it, work your arse off for poor pay or you'll be replaced by many more who have aspirations until they too are ground down and leave. Employers win, keep the poor poor. Yet the in crowd think it's some bizarre Tory plot. Funnily the two top Tories want to stay in.

I want out. Why stat in a average relationship for life paying off debt, scared of change. Seek better, yearn for more. Dare to dream. We were once great.

Dare to dream?

When you typed that, was there a close up, in your head, of a Union Jack fluttering in the wind, in slow motion, with a choir singing Jerusalem?

[img] [/img]

No. With you there's a EU flag fluttering in the wind?

I love Europe but I'm patriotic. Low-brow types will claim that's racist in some bizarre way or 'little Britain mentality'.

All the Tory politicians care about is being world statesmen at the expense of home.

Question, what's Blair's stance?

This has been doing the rounds recently:

However this older one is really interesting:

I love Europe but I'm patriotic.

What does that actually mean?

I feel patriotic, I love my country and still intend to vote stay, indeed [i]because[/i] I love my country I believe it is in our best intersts to stay. Patriotism and love of country is not restricted to Leavers

teamhurtmore - Member
I love Europe but I'm patriotic.
What does that actually mean?

Two World Wars and one World Cup !!

I am also waiting for the OUTers to explain which of the main instruments of policy are not in our control? Oddly quiet on that, despite the accusation that Brussels controls everything.

Its a bit like the scaremongering about Greece. No answers on the hit to the UK. Why? Because the truth is inconvenient

A deal was done which meant that non-eurozone members would be fully compensated in the event that Greece did not repay its loan. [b]They were provided with collateral to guarantee this. In the event, Greece repaid its loan without incident.[/b]

What’s more, a law was passed at the time ensuring the same treatment if a similar situation arose in future. The UK’s renegotiation of its EU membership in February 2016 gave further protection against Britain being drawn into euro zone bailouts. The deal made the following commitment: [b]“Emergency and crisis measures designed to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area will not entail budgetary responsibility for Member States whose currency is not the euro.”[/b]

So lets forget wild forecasts (on any side) and just see if people can tell the truth about the known knows

Despite whats is till the front page of the VOTE LEAVE website, we do not send £350m a week to the EU
Turkey is not in the EU
We are not on the hook for Greece
Brussels does not control the key elements of government policy

Instead we pay less than 1% of our national income to be part of one of the world's most important economic and trading zones
We maintain full control over most instruments of policy
We are not part of the Euro
We have a flexible FX system
An independent Central Bank
A part of one of the worlds most successful political and economic unions - the UK
Trade actively with the world's major economies in and outside of Europe
Etc, etc

Not much to hate in that lot is there?

I love Europe but I'm patriotic.

What's it like, being you?

I've just watched Bill Cash on Channel 4 news calling for a vote of no confidence in Dave.

I honestly think that the likes of him, Redwood, Rees Mogg, and the other more Euro obsessed fringes of the Tory party are completely and utterly unhinged, and occupy some paranoid, hate-filled fantacy world of outrageous Brussels-based conspiracy theories.

I doubt they'll accept a vote to remain, and God only knows what they're prepared to do to this country to fulfil their insane obsession with leaving the EU

frankly, they're lunatics!

They are - both our main parties in a complete mess and the third is off the radar screen. Even allows jokers like Salmond/Sturgeon and Co to cement control with little challenge.

Still we get what we deserve.

Leaving aside my distrust of many MPs, it really is quite incredible (in the true sense of the world) that (1) they behave with such utter stupidity and (2) both main parties seem determined to make themselves less rather than more electable. Utter madness...

Whilst we're existing in delusional ' the EU needs us' land. Like the western economy, the EU project isn't going to work without continual expansion, so that more money can be created to give the illusion of wealth and growth and betterment. Philanthropic gestures are hung out to tempt, to bait, to fund the new joining smaller countries with the rather sarcastic name of European Development Fund, or some such other.

Which of course, loads the joining member with a national debt, with interest.

Which at some point, will need to pay back, with additional interest.

How much money has the EU created over the last 8 years? Created! Like, now it doesn't exist, but now it does! Genius, it's that easy, especially when they hand it out to their peers and the potential for taking a cut must be very high. Especially when the taxpayers are then told they have to pay again!

Corrupt self serving organisation, that has one agenda, that with persistence will win. How many of the 10 to 20 something's here in the UK regard themselves as primarily European, rather than British or English? It's a slow generational process of assimilation...

Being me?

Sorry big press has been made a story about the UKIP idiot and Boris.How good are you infront of a camera? Crap. I want intelligence not sound bites, slick media fiends. Maybe Boris isn't right for us but I'm sick of actors in suits in politics. I want a change. You want to continue the same old rigmarol. Change. Change.

Yet the people who royally ****ed us hard. Really really hard who are pro Europe; Messrs Brown & Blair are pro in.

You've got to question their logic. The deaths, the global issues created by the credit card economy perpetuated, the migration issues, yet 'we' are wrong.

Don't you actually question their intelligence or do you think 2003 was right and just?

We **** Iraq. Yet your friends using their vast experience think we are wrong to doubt the European experiment.

Sorry. I want out, doubt, question and no I don't follow the media/what we are told to think. Again is this as good as it gets?

Starter for 10:

Very significant increase in trade at a lower cost? And all for a tiny fee of c.0.5%/0.7% of GDP

Gift horse's mouth is =====>>

[i]binners - Member
I'm just struggling with one thing.
[/i]
Nope, you're struggling with a number of things. But you carry on posting, if it helps or even if it doesn't...........
😉

Binners You are thinking like a Tory on this.

Profit and everyone else must be racist or non-statesmen.

Do you really think chasing $$ is right? Let's buy a bigger house etc?

I want to step off the credit card/sales economy. Sick of it.

What the EU has done is saddle itself with €350bn and rapidly growing of Greek debt which no one in their right minds other than the politicians is going to touch

TMH we don't control our own trade agreements, we don't control our own regulations, we cannot control our population (quite important when it comes to budgeting), we are restricted in our ability to set taxes (like VAT), we cannot control our government borrowing as the EU can demand "exceptional" contributions at any time.

Winners if Cameron had acted reasonably, fought fair fight and all that, he would be sitting pretty. IMO he's realised quite quickly he may lose the Referendum (he must have known when his renegotiation was such a total joke) and gone into full melt-down with the bollix

Which Tory? The whole point is that the Tory party is completely split, and in the process of tearing itself apart.

Or had you missed that bit?

How many of the 10 to 20 something's here in the UK regard themselves as primarily European, rather than British or English?

Not sure, but they tend to be pro-European. No surprise but let down by the older generation again!!

Someone's missed the point.

What the EU has done is saddle itself with €350bn and rapidly growing of Greek debt which no one in their right minds other than the politicians is going to touch

And remind me how we are exposed?

TMH we don't control our own trade agreements, we don't control our own regulations, we cannot control our population (quite important when it comes to budgeting), we are restricted in our ability to set taxes (like VAT), we cannot control our government borrowing as the EU can demand "exceptional" contributions at any time.

(Partial) Hogwash. We have free trade agreements with 90% of the countries in the Commonwealth via the EU including the six economies that account for 84% of our trade and we have seen constant and rapid increases with our trade with the major Commonwealth economies. We control plenty of regulations and immigration - what do you think border guards do?

Re negotiations on regulations etc. Britain is on the winning side 87% of the time, is one of the most successful countries in getting what it wants out of the EU, and retains vetoes in important areas like foreign policy, taxation and the budget framework. Why the need to make these things up?

There is an obvious trend here - list things we dont like and then blame them on Europe. Utter tosh.

I am also waiting for the OUTers to explain which of the main instruments of policy are not in our control? Oddly quiet on that, despite the accusation that Brussels controls everything.

I'll give you a simple example, Taxation - if our government wanted to eliminate VAT on bikes and pedelecs tomorrow, current EU rules would prevent it doing so

I think thats a bad thing

Yes just like they've done with women's sanitary products.

And kids cycling helmets.

The older generation.. We could go into stereotypes or we could understand wisdom (others say we get more righwing the oldsr get).. funnily Im more understanding of everyones opinions now.

Personally (personal experience), thr older i am the more everything makes sense. Im not rightwing but I am cynical and wordly about human nature and the press.

I find the pro in offensive and insulting on this.

BTW- Thatcher. The reason why I respected her. Back in the 70/80's my mother was battered and all services treated women like women should shut up/know their place. As a kid I saw her as hardcore in a man's world. THAT is why I admire that side of her.

Drac, as pointed out - that was a decision that the UK government was unable to make itself.

They decided to say no to sanitary products, again, the EU said don't be so ****ing stupid.

VAT is a complete buggers muddle granted - lots of folk want greater harmonisation both within countries and across regions and governments of all pol persuasions like to use VAT to broaden the tax base as it is (perceived) as being the least distorting method of tax (not everyone agrees on that point)

We have enough of our own Bllx on VAT without blaming Europe - remember the pasty tax debacle?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tampon-tax-david-cameron-announces-end-to-vat-on-sanitary-products-in-house-of-commons-a6944371.html

Why can't a leader just decide anyway?

Anyone seen any figures relation in/out preference to age? Just wondering 'cos most people I know in my age group (getting on a bit) are pro-European.

Most people I know in my age group (35-40) are remain. Consensus seems to be that it may not be perfect but they see no real reason to change.

Both Remain and Leave campaigns leave everyone cold as trying to gain any relevant info from the bucket loads of mince is a lost cause.

From my admittedly limited enquiries, I've met one remainer, one undecided and the rest brexitters. Mostly middle aged, plus my old folks. All working class or lower-middle class. Make of that what you will.

Most people I know are only vaguely aware there's a vote coming up and don't much mind which way it goes if they have heard about it. It's rarely on national news and somewhere in the middle of the papers.

[url= http://plus.lefigaro.fr/tag/brexit ]Le Figaro updates regularly.[/url]