[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The [url= http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/05/britain-s-eu-referendum ]Economist Brexit Poll Tracker[/url] shows division of voting intent by age, sex, region, political allegiance.
Interesting to note how the variation in the lead of "remain" mirrors inversely the size of "Don't know". If the don't knows don't vote, we could be out of there.

Mixtures here from my experience but I've noticed outers are now claiming it's not what Chrurchill fought for, whilst posting pics of World War II.

I'd noticed the same, Gowrie, but drawn the opposite conclusion.

Edit: Scrub the above, I read over "don't" vote.

@Drac the EU published a paper in 2010 suggesting VAT on food was harmonised, it got kicked down the road but imo it will be back. The EU have pressured us repeatedly about our low rates on gas and electric

And remind me how we are exposed?

@Growie, agreed thats why it's so hard to call. The Leavers are passionate, committed and will vote. Remain has the "don't change anything" momentum plus the weight of the establishment behind them.

The postal vote leaflet recall is a total dogs breakfast, lets just watch the finger pointing

@ninfan nice find and well worth the time to listen. Labour seem to have lost their courage and their convictions, voting to Remain as it "stops the Tories".

It is failing me correct. So a simple recap to help us all out

1. What happened last time (was my quote above about collateral and getting money back true or false?)
2, What is our role, if any, in the EFSM? (are we involved or not)
3. Are there any legal safeguards that protect the UK position (yes or no)

All important queations, to which straight and specific answers are available... 😉

So for example it could be

1 True
2 Not
3 Yes

Your turn

Chucking something more interesting into the mix, here's a link to Irvine Welsh, writing in the Guardian.

I suspect he may be right- among us ordinaries, its Hobson's choice:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/30/eu-referendum-neoliberal-irvine-welsh

Yay, cheaper petrol where do I sign?

[b]YAY!! A FREE GOLD-PLATED UNICORN FOR EVERYONE!!!!![/b]

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As a business I can zero rate the VAT to another EU country. I like that. It's less hassle. So VAT is pretty harmonised.

Try doing that inside the UK.

I suspect he may be right- among us ordinaries, its Hobson's choice:

Well written article from Welsh there CodyB.

'Poundstretcher Trump' is a peach!.

Mike +1

Amusing in parts, inconsistent and confused as a whole. But 10/10 for blaming the ills of the words on this wooly idea called Neo-liberalism.

He should write for the Guardian 😉

Interesting that anyone is free to use the term Toff in a derogatory way but not pleb. Still the real toffs will be outraged at the inclusion of mere commoners in their hallowed ranks. What is the worlds coming to! Gove went to a state school in Aberdeenshire. 😉

Yes, adopted at four months old, talk about being born with a silver spoon in you mouth!

Of course, like Boris he went on to become president of the Oxford student union, which must prove he is a toff, like former presidents Benazir Bhutto, Tony Benn and Michael Foot...

I do wonder why lefty spokespeople so lack intellectual rigour?

A lot of what is proposed could have a big impact on simple things like the financial stability of the country, that impacts things like your mortgage rates etc. The ability of UK companies to be effective and profitable again direct impacts on having jobs or not.

But no one, including economists can tellvthe man in the street what will actually happen in the short or long term...so

Just out of interest: has anyone seen the labour party? Whatever happened to them eh? Must be all on a basket weaving course somewhere

But no one, including economists can tellvthe man in the street what will actually happen in the short or long term...so

Well you say no-one......

[img] [/img]

Oxford student union

Oxford Union Society in fact. Quite different thing.

@tmh not funding the consequences of a Greek default is like claiming you are going to veto Turkey joining. When it happens we [b]will[/b] have to pay. If the Government wanted to show commitment they would pass a law saying a binding referendum was required for every new EU member.

Numerous commentators have said the EU would likely disintegrate if we left. Think about that, an organisation so well founded and important for the future is going to collapse if one member who is actually outside the most important central element leaves. The fact is the EU is close to collapse anyway, is it out duty to go down with the ship ?

Those on the left seem free to insult and abuse as they wish, Tory scum, toffs, the rich... As above if Tory voters took to the streets with similar chants there would be uproar (pleb vs toff as above). Can you imagine a Tory event with chants of "Labour filth" ? Then we have the intellectual snobbery which says if you attended one of the top Universities in the world you are a snob, out of touch etc. Seems people would rather be governed by the less able - brilliant ! We have a far more elgailitarian society than the French (that bastion of left wing politics) where unkess you went to one of the top Universities you will never hold a senior position in a major organisation. It matters not what you've achieved in your life but where you went to Uni at 18. We have a society where that is not the case.

I think the chances of the EU folding if GB leaves are about the same as this forum folding if you and/or I leave Jamba. It was doing fine in the 60s which is why Heath wanted in.

It matters not what you've achieved in your life but where you went to Uni at 18. We have a society where that is not the case.

You're actually right for once, Jammers. Everything in this country is decided a long time before you hit university

Huzzah for our independent egalitarian meritocracy 😆

Ninfan 😀

Jambas the three questions were very specific and yet still no clear answer. Are you ignoring the legal safeguards completely? And you talk about LT idel speculation.

I assume that answers will remain unanswered so we can take it that you are happy with my one word conclusions to each three.

The position of the UK is not the key determinant of future success of failure for the EU. That will be determined by the fate of the Euro which can go one of three ways as I outlined many pages before. We will be an interested spectator on that but not (fortunately) a participant

Don't confuse the EU and then € - that is unhelpful

AA, plenty of people have outlined how the various economic factors play out in the event of a Brexit. The challenge as always is the precision that they then (falsely) attach to the analysis.

Binners

The labour party can't believe their luck. The Tories were settled in, so the complacency returns and their Achilles heel (Europe) exposed once more.

Of course, we should be hearing more from Lab and the Lib Dems, but they are playing politics here and in that context sensibly letting the Tories self destruct in public.

Shows the contempt they all have for those they serve.

I have not read the mountain of forum trail on this matter....but its surely the most important political question of our lives to date.

For my part I am simply not sure. Heart says leave, head says don't rock the boat and stay.

I consider myself to be relatively politically savvy, but debate has been largely based on conjecture and threats as far as I can tell. Not sure what the EU is actually for any more but find siding with Boris, Gove and Farage to be more than troubling.

Probably flip a coin.

Well, there's plenty of Labour people who are for Brexit of course, and the social democratic arguments in favour of it are as strong as ever (see Tony Benn video on previous page) - hell, even Corbyn used to think so...

I suspect those who would speak out are busy trying to avoid the inevitable purges that will come afterwards, the threat of mandatory reelection really has cut deep into the Labour Party.

STW gremlins...

Just Vote Leave or Out coz the whole system needs rebooting.

What is the worlds coming to! Gove went to a state school in Aberdeenshire.

No he didn't; Robert Gordons is £12k a year without lunch, so it is hardly accurate to describe him as having a working class upbringing,scholarship or not.
If that is your example Zulu 11 I suggest more attention to "intellectual rigour" on your part, as you can't even read Wiki.

Far be it from me to defend Gove Duckman, but according to Wiki he did attend a state school before attending Robert Gordon. (Word of advice, if looking up wikipedia don't just try to read the blue bits).
Adopted son of an owner of a fish processing business and a lab assistant does not sound the beginnings of toffdom to me.

If that is your example Zulu 11 I suggest more attention to "intellectual rigour" on your part, as you can't even read Wiki.

And you can't even read the thread, 'cause I never mentioned anything about where he went to school, it was THM 😆

Don't confuse the EU and then € - that is unhelpful

even Corbyn used to think so...

@rowallan - its like we are trapped in an abusive relationship. We know its not working but we are afraid to go it alone. The US, Canada, Australia etc etc would never join such an organisation. The longer we stay in the harder it will be to exit and when the thing goes very badly wrong (far far worse than the little bump we've seen with Greece) we will be truley daffy ducked.

Many people don't want to rock the boat but they are ignoring the fact it's sinking (or heading for the iceberg whilst the captain ignores all the signals). I'll post this again

[img] [/img]

AA, plenty of people have outlined how the various economic factors play out in the event of a Brexit.

[i]mikewsmith - Member
I couldn't disagree more, for the average man in the street there is a lot to consider[/i]

and:

[i]teamhurtmore - Member
Mike +1[/i]

Thats not what I meant- let me explain properly.

There is indeed a lot to consider. But in my opinion, the rapid, ungoverned slide towards TTIP in Europe is sadly offsetting much of the social good that the project has achieved. I've always been in favour of the inclusive, 'socialist' goals that, for a long time, was the direction of travel. I don't feel I need to give either of you examples as you'll have many.

But on the other hand, I'm not daft enough to believe that our own govt- in whatever flavour- wouldn't sign us up on the spot, together with reducing or removing many of our Europe-enshrined human rights.

Therefore, I see the overall trend, regardless of the ref outcome, as being towards an impoverishment in the lives of 'ordinaries' like most of us here, and a massive bias towards the empowerment of big business.

Hence: Hobson's choice.

Jambalaya, you are Joseph Bruce Ismay, and I claim my £5.

chewkw - Member
Just Vote Leave or Out coz the whole system needs rebooting.

The system does need rebooting, but that's not going to happen. Voting out isn't a reboot, it is a vote for accelerated neo-liberablism, whether thm likes to admit that's a thing or not... We'll essentially become a vassel state of america.

....incidentally, I think the only hope for survival of ordinaries is inside the EU, while lobbying for TTIP to be cancelled- we may get lucky in that various member states have publicly come out against it. But I will admit that the arguments of Brexiters who claim that there's a certain lack of accountability at the core of the Union has weight. We've seen that in the TTIP discussions, and I don't like it.

@Duckman- he did start out at primary state school then received a merit scholarship to Robert Gordon's (not sure if it was for the full fees value or a reduction, not sure it matters). Same route is open to any state school student It's just plain wrong to call him a toff tbh.

He's a pure fanny, mind

[img] [/img]

And you can't even read the thread, 'cause I never mentioned anything about where he went to school, it was THM

e2-e4 😉 We'll have to excuse Duckie, he is after Edukator's now vacant tag!! But 12k and you don't get lunch - what kind of school is that?!? 😀

The € is the single most important thing the EU has "achieved" it is the perfect example of how the EU (doesn't) work.

No its not and no it isnt...

IMO the € is the EU.

Hence the confusion. Odd that we are having a referendum on the EU not on Euro membership!!

To all intents and purposes there are no safe guards,

Yes there are legal safeguards - I have quoted the agreement ^

Strikes me lots of rich people have given their views on what they want be it rich luvies wanting to stay in or Boris and the like wanting us to leave so that we can have more sovereignty or shut the borders but very little is has been said about the effects on "normal" people. I

How normal is the contrived cost of an average holiday or impact on holidays or impact on Welsh farming?

My point remains that he is far from coming from a humble background and that suggestions that he in some way isn't a member of the elite is bobbins.

We'll have to excuse Duckie, his after Edukator's now vacant tag!!

But 12k and you don't get lunch - what kind of school is that?!?

A)I think the tag will probably go to somebody who has been banned for trolling at some point; you perhaps?
B) Seems a lot to me, but thanks for backing up my point about his education, and by dint of that his socialisation being exclusive.

 

Grrr... go for it tiger!! Keep at it and you might win your prize.

The article called him "a toff". He might like that as an adjective but "the point remains", he is anything but.

If anything he has shown what can be done despite the lack of the silver spoon....

That's impressive that you don't think he is a "toff" (your choice of word) His actions suggest a complete lack of understanding of the social problems disadvantaged children bring to school while Education secretary. But I would assume from your oft denied right wing perspective the privatisation of education is a good thing. Sad really when you and the artist formally known as Zulu try to suggest Gove is anything but an out and out right wing thinker (and do-er.)

Remainers ? I have been banging on about how the EU massively favours big business from a tax perspective. Leave Campaign now highlighting this. £15bn of taxes passed legally in our parliament and courts and over-ruled by ECJ. True or false ?

HMRC has already been forced to pay back £7.87billion in the last decade after European Court of Justice cases ruled certain business tax rules in Britain illegal.
Documents from the independent Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) reveal that HMRC will be forced to pay back a further £7.3billion before 2020.
The rules deemed illegal by EU judges were drawn up by Treasury officials and implemented after being approved by MPs in the House of Commons.
The figures, unveiled by the Vote Leave campaign, expose the extent to which multinational firms use the European Court of Justice to cut their tax bills and reclaim billions of pounds from the UK taxpayer.
The amount HMRC sets aside to settle litigation concerning taxes subject to challenge has increased from £34million in 2005/06 to £7.2billion in 2015/16, the OBR figures reveal.

Jambalaya, you are Joseph Bruce Ismay, and I claim my £5.

True, but no one can say what will happen [b]for sure whether we Remain or we Leave[/b]