Ok Junkyard. Your moment has arrived!
Convince the sceptics why we are better off in the EU than out.
My instincts are all for staying in. We [b]had[/b] a referendum (I voted in it) with a 2 to 1 majority for staying. We're in a union, whether we like it or not and should just get on with it. There are aspects of it I'm not happy about, so we should try to change them, but we have to be on the inside to do that. The UK economy has evolved to suit being in the EU. That was not without problems, but there would be more problems reversing it. Trying to unscramble eggs is difficult; entropy must increase. Civilisation has tended towards bigger units as communication and travel has become easier. People may feel happier to split into smaller and more parochial units, but while being independent may give the illusion of being in control, in a global market you're still constrained by what everybody else does. The small players are likely to be edged out over time. The UK's global influence is left over from having an empire, where we were in charge not a partner, and that's one reason why we don't feel as comfortable in a union - but we lost our previous trade links as the EU grew, and if we leave it now we'll just become more isolated as time goes on.
Essentially staying in means creating a EU Politburo ... 😆
You are merely trying to emulate the USSR but interpret the system in your own ways by thinking you can better them.
What a bunch of Utopian ... 😛
If we become a full member ... guess who will be the first to suffer?
The working class lot! Who else! 😆
The middle class and the well off (probably you lot) or the celebrities will still retain their wealth no matter where they go. The working class people are stuck! Stuck!
Not only are the working class people now have to compete with other working class people in full EU membership ... ya, competition is good. ... they now have to bow to become more working class than working class. Now let see if you can compete with others that can speak more languages, more mobile (moving from one place to another), much better to endure hardship etc ...
Who will suffer? The local working class ...
flanagaj - MemberSo maybe our government does pass rules the electoral don't agree with, but at least we are given the chance to cast our vote to another party after the 5 year period.
...and then you get the government some other country voted for. Oh no wait, that's Scotland.
😆
Speaking to my Dad tonight he was saying it doesn't matter if we are in or out for stuff like trade or a tiny amount of immigration and emigration that will always happen anyway.
He just remembers playing in Bomb Craters, and damaged buildings, and receiving food parcels from America and being very aware of the stability we have had since. Sounds a bit like Syria to me.
Look at us all bickering about faff all! Bunch of ranting nonsensical idiots. Perhaps Britain and Europe, Russia and USA should quit gazing into their own bloody navels and maybe think about dealing with other more serious problems. I like to think they are but this whole referendum is just a distraction. At least the Pope said something sensible for once and advocates building bridges.
As the whole EU trade argument (yawn), business will carry on as usual. Are we all that naive to think that Europe will say "don't do business with those naughty Brits?"
Just slap a nice 10% terrific on everything, then ban anything that doesn't comply with all EU rules and make border inspections hard. No more cheap fags and booze and all that too. It's naive to assume anything... It makes an ass of u & me. By saying out you are gambling on an outcome.
Almost 65 million consumers in the UK. That's 65 million consumers with potential to spend on German goods.
Where will Germany find another 65 million consumers with money to buy their goods?
China are trying to encourage their population to buy their own goods - so that's potentially a shrinking market.
India? Wealth inequality means those with money are too few.
Rest of the EU? Nope, that market has already been cultivated.
No doubt EU leaders will try to bully Uk as they did with Greece. But ultimately they need access to our markets - before USA grabs it all.
Vote for out here.
Let EU and USA compete for our trade.
Out, bringing back duty free shopping is the biggest benefit!
Almost 65 million consumers in the UK. That's 65 million consumers with potential to spend on German goods.
Where will Germany find another 65 million consumers with money to buy their goods?
1. have you seen the size of China? there are cities with those sorts of population numbers there.
2. How d'you know that in the future a UK govt won't decide that rather than support German jobs, they'd like to support British car jobs and slap import taxes on those Beamers, and Mercs?
British PM love strutting about on the world stage, outside of the EU, we're a mid sized economy floating about in the Atlantic, which both the EU and US china and Russia will ignore
You seem to be under the impression that the UK only buys goods and services and doesn't need to sell them as well.
You are radically overestimating the specialness of the special relationship.
I love the way the BBC make it look like CMD has been up all night 'thrashin' out a deal..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35609968
"some progress" = the EU aint buying it
What worries me is how it will all look in 20 years. I'm all for an EU that improves the ability of members to trade freely. However this move towards ever closer political ties is the element I'm not so keen on. The EU we have now will not be the EU we have in 20 years or so. I'm not old enough to remember the original vote to join the EU (or whatever it was called then). Relatives of mine who voted "Yes" back then all say that what we have now is not what they voted for. Economic ties, yes. Ever growing political ties, No.
I can honestly see both sides of the argument and as such am undecided.
cloudnine - MemberI love the way the BBC make it look like CMD has been up all night 'thrashin' out a deal.
I've decided that no longer counts as antisocial hours, we need a 7 day government so he never gets to sleep again.
The whole thing is little more than theatre - in the end, rather silly using up all our political capital dealing with minor issues when the REAL EU issues have yet to raised and debated. Why shoot you bolt on the marginal stuff?
Merkel will always look for compromise unlike nos amis as she knows how bad Brexit is for the "project".
this stupid and trivial thing over child benefits is enough for me to say we should leave.
Even if the UK has to pay child benefit to children in other countries, why should it not be indexed to the cost of living of the country the children are in ?
Seems eminently sensible to me.
I love the way the BBC make it look like CMD has been up all night 'thrashin' out a deal..
why do you love it - it appear that he has indeed been up all night ?
The whole thing is political pandering by Cameron. He hopes that the EU will give in a bit, the UK won't exit the EU and everyone is happy and our Dear Leader gets to play the hero (see also, getting Google to pony up SOME cash). Worst case, the EU say no, the UK votes for an exit and Cameron/the Conservatives/the entire UK ends up with a mess to clear up.
Merkel will always look for compromise unlike nos amis as she knows how bad Brexit is for the "project".
This, I believe, is the crux of the matter.
Ignoring the facts (correct me if I'm wrong!) that with the exception of Germany, the UK is the biggest net fund raiser for the EU and has the biggest economy (greater than the 19 smallest economies of the member states combined), Brexit would almost certainly act as a catalyst for the ever growing, yet routinely under-reported anti-EU superstate feelings that exist in many member states.
I really don't know what is best, and I'm unsure how I would vote, but a total reform of the EU to achieve what we originally voted for, rather than the "project" we now have, would be nice.
Brexit maybe the only way this can be achieved, otherwise I fear we may just be continuing to flog an extremely dead horse.
atlaz - Member
... Worst case, the EU say no, the UK votes for an exit and Cameron/the Conservatives/the entire UK ends up with a mess to clear up.
Cameron will be pressured to resign, and he very well might. He won't have any mess to clear up, he'll just move on to the extremely profitable world of being an ex-PM.
(if we think TonyB has done well out of it, just imagine how much money Dave will make)
[i]Even if the UK has to pay child benefit to children in other countries, why should it not be indexed to the cost of living of the country the children are in ? [/i]
So you are also happy then for some folk to receive more than we do, ie Swedes, Germans , the French?
And also EVERYONE who receives child benefit in the UK will have to prove where their children live, all the time. Whereas at the moment the only time the Govt contacts someone about their payments is when the child gets to leaving education age.
Can you imagine the increase in costs of administering this?
when the REAL EU issues have yet to raised and debated.
This is what I can't stand about the EU, they've had years to 'fix' the Eurozone problems and a year or two to get to grips with the refugee crisis, and what do we have as an outcome for all the talks and expenses very, very little.
UK should leave, and go win business elsewhere to create a proper global trading area, Middle East, China, India, N & S. America, Africa. Then go old school and re-arm to keep the ever blood sucking Germany (of Southern Euro countries) in check.
slap a nice 10% terrific on everything
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I've heard they were up all night playing darts and drinking beir. Thats why todays morning meeting has been put back till lunch.
dragon makes chekw look coherent. quite the task
Merkel allegedly keen on indexing child benefit to country of residence as Germany pays out more to Polish kids than we do.
Cameron and EU are show boating to give the allure of tough negotaiations. The fact is Cameron has asked for nothing of any substance, none of it is binding as their is no treaty change.
EDIT: Merkel isn't even present at the negotaitions, the EUs most powerful leader is a no show 😯 She's sending a signal about how important this charade is
Plus the EU army is a very bad idea - what is wrong with Nato?
The potential EU army and the number of countries close to Russia that want to join the EU is one of the reasons Russia is so unhappy about those countries and why it is keen to keep relations in the middle east.
Then go old school and re-arm to keep the ever blood sucking Germany (of Southern Euro countries) in check.
Nice to see this 'debate' has been re-invigorated by you and flanagaj with some first class ignorance and foreigner hating jingoism. If only we could go back to the days of dropping bombs on our neighbours instead of going on holiday there 🙄
On a more serious note, I may be mistaken but I can see Cameron being forced to back an out vote unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat. He's backed himself into a corner by promising to win substantive reforms and the tory right will pin him to the wall on it. We could very well end up sleepwalking into the most catastrophic and far reaching decision in decades in order to solve an internal party political issue within the conservative party.
dazh - Member
Nice to see this 'debate' has been re-invigorated by you and flanagaj with some first class ignorance and foreigner hating jingoism.
Ya, as if I welcome another foreigner to share my cake. Me am no BritLand born native you know. Most foreigners do not like each other coz they ain't sharing the cake. Fact. 🙄
atlaz - Member
dragon makes chekw look coherent.
Do you have difficulty understanding general people or just non-native legal alien? 🙄
Or are you just having some sort of gag reflex? 😯
Ya, gag reflex ... 😆
I think a collective shrug will be more likely than panic.
I don't dislike the German people but the German state policies of destroying the Southern European countries for their benefit and then encouraging mass migration (for Germany's benefit), is only going to lead to more and more problems. Unless something is done then it is going to end very badly.
to put things in perspective LBC were just at the refugee/migrant camps in France and there was an afghan guy who had been there for 6 months, fled afghanistan because of the war/taliban activity after the war, and during the war had fought with us and been trained by us, and had pulled a wounded British soldier out of the front line. An MOD accessor said he would be clased as having PTSD.
He was stuck in the camp yet we allow tons of far eastern 'workers' into this country to benefit from our economy (possibly claim child benefit multiple times what they could get at home) and provide shoddy levels of workmanship (based on my experience).
nickc - Member1. have you seen the size of China? there are cities with those sorts of population numbers there.
No theres not.
2. How d'you know that in the future a UK govt won't decide that rather than support German jobs, they'd like to support British car jobs and slap import taxes on those Beamers, and Mercs?
And thats the reason Germany won`t do the same. If they can do it - we can too.
British PM love strutting about on the world stage, outside of the EU, we're a mid sized economy floating about in the Atlantic, which both the EU and US china and Russia will ignore
Russia may not be too interested in our markets ... China, USA and EU certainly are.
to put things in perspective LBC were just at the refugee/migrant camps in France and there was an afghan guy who had been there for 6 months, fled afghanistan because of the war/taliban activity after the war, and during the war had fought with us and been trained by us, and had pulled a wounded British soldier out of the front line. An MOD accessor said he would be clased as having PTSD.
I heard that also, what a story eh ? I dont believe a word, if he had helped a British Soldier to safety from a dangerous situation it would have been national news and Im pretty sure the wounded soldier would have come forward by now.
In answer to the original question - Out.
If the Eu had remained what we, the poor, uneducted and pitiful little people were told it was in the beginning (ie a common trading market, reduced barriers to buying and selling goods) then I would be keen to stay. However, it has become clear that the grand master plan was always to create a United States of Europe which IMHO will never work and not something I want to be a part of. So, right now, I don't really care what concessions Cameron may be able to get I think the whole project is badly broken and the best thing that we can do is leave it.
However, it has become clear that the grand master plan was always to create a United States of Europe which IMHO
No it wasn't. Some people want that, but a lot don't.
it's that 'ever closer union' thing that seems to catch people's attention.
to me, it sounds a bit like a cheesy wedding vow - technically meaningless.
to others, it sounds like The Borg are coming to assimilate us all. And make us drink [s]beer[/s] lager from 250ml glasses.
"No it wasn't. Some people want that, but a lot don't."
And you know that for a fact do you Mol? Considering what the original stated aim of the EU was we seem to have an awful lot of political aparatus in place these days including European Parliament building, EU MPs etc. All looks suspiciously like a federated union of member states rather than a trade agreement body. Although I can't recall where I saw it I seem to vaguely remember some revelations following Ted Heath's death that the grand plan had always been to grow the role and influence of the EU but that the politicians in charge at time had deliberately kept that information from the public to ensure less / no resistance. Who knows what the truth of the matter is but I do know that I don't like what we currently have or where it is heading so given the choice, I would vote for OUT.
elections to the european parliament are based on proportional representation.
Europe (as a federated union) is more democratic than the uk...
Any federation of states has a boundary between state and federal anyway. Your prpblem would be with too much federal power, as in the USA, not with a federation in general, I suspect.
The ever closer union issue is the crux. For those countries (2/3 of members) who are part of the € project this is a fundamental requirement. The € project will fail without monetary AND fiscal union and the greater political union that this requires. Even then it might fail due to the fact that the € zone does not satisfy the basic criteria for a common currency area.
For the other 1/3, the issues are different. However. when you look at the leaked negotiation documents (see yesterday's FT) you realise that we have a pretty good deal all in all.
Of course, these big issues remain to be addressed. In the meantime lets get frothy about child benefit - no really, lets....
ahwiles - Memberelections to the european parliament are based on proportional representation.
Europe (as a federated union) is more democratic than the uk...
Ya right I was born yesterday. 🙄
you realise that we have a pretty good deal all in all.
Well, we had an even better one till Bliar gave away 40% of our rebate in return for promised CAP reforms that never happened...
Well it looks increasingly like Dave's coming back with nowt. It'll be interesting to see how he tries to spin that. As anything other than Nige's birthday present.
Not that it was of any significance anyway - the total amount of the benefits we're talking about here is apparently 30 million quid a year. Neither here nor there really. So even if he gets everything he asked for, we're still effectively be voting on the status quo. As if it was ever going to be anything other than that?
[quote=TurnerGuy ]we allow tons of far eastern 'workers' into this country to benefit [s]from[/s] our economy FTFY
Merkel isn't even present at the negotaitions, the EUs most powerful leader is a no show She's sending a signal about how important this charade is
Probably can't stand to be in the same room...
I've just read Michael Gove is joining the out campaign. Well I'm definitely in then.
I heard that also, what a story eh ? I dont believe a word, if he had helped a British Soldier to safety from a dangerous situation it would have been national news and Im pretty sure the wounded soldier would have come forward by now.
It would be front page news if an afghan soldier helped a British one in combat?
I fear Cameron's give-me-what-I-want-or-else negotiating style is not very convincing when there is no "or else". What's the worst he could do? Organise a referendum? Tiens donc.
[quote=konabunny ]It would be front page news if an afghan soldier helped a British one in combat?Mibbe not, but there would at least be a Commando comic with the story in it, aye?
It would be front page news if an afghan soldier helped a British one in combat?
The story quoted on LBC if it had been true would have yes !
Did you hear the story ?
I bet the [b]In Supporters[/b] will celebrate hysterically by hailing the negotiation as the best ever deal for UK the moment the PM is back ... Pui! Pui! Pui! (Greek style woman spitting) 🙄
Cameron has certainly wound a few people up over the last few days. Just had a guy on TV reminding everyone that there wouldn't be an immigrant crisis if Great Britain hadn't destabilised the region (Iraq/syria) with a war started on false pretexts.
binners
[i]Not that it was of any significance anyway - the total amount of the benefits we're talking about here is apparently 30 million quid a year. Neither here nor there really. So even if he gets everything he asked for, we're still effectively be voting on the status quo. As if it was ever going to be anything other than that? [/i]
See the post at the top of this page, the net will be far, far less and IMO actually cost us MORE money.
It really is just an absolutely ridiculous charade, isn't it? Is there anyone daft enough to view it as anything other than that?
[I]Is there anyone daft enough to view it as anything other than that? [/I]
Yep.
A bit like the guy I heard on R2 earlier in the week, along the lines of:
"if anyone votes out based on the child benefit story they are an idiot"
chewkw - MemberI bet the In Supporters will celebrate hysterically by hailing the negotiation as the best ever deal for UK the moment the PM is back ...
I think most of them are just shaking their heads in disgust tbh.
It really is just an absolutely ridiculous charade, isn't it? Is there anyone daft enough to view it as anything other than that?
Camerons whole time in office has been a charade, his whole raison d'être as prime minister is a charade, his masquerade is an insult to the intelligence of the masses, so if you are a stayer inner just take a bit of time and have a good long hard think as to why camerade wants to stay in the EU !
If we remain within the EU his job will be done and the neolibs will have won, you can kiss the labour party and any form of adversarial real politics in this country good bye.
What a lot of this debate ignores is the amount of funding the EU creates for everything from University research to small business to social enterprise projects.
Who's going to take up that funding if we leave, do you trust Call Me Dave and his cronies to step in?
A quick Google search found this list of beneficiaries of the European Regional Development Fund. It is from 2007-2013 and only covers the East Midlands.
[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479592/East_Midlands_List_of_Beneficiaries_Nov_15.pdf ]It's a big list.[/url]
Well, we can all relax. Pob has apparently decided to join the exit campaign. With his track record it will make brexit less likely after all. Phew.
The interesting undercurrent of this is what the labour party and Corbyn are doing. On the surface they are campaigning to stay in. At face value I reckon they're sincere in this but they will have surely learned the lessons of the Scottish Referendum and won't be caught out this time campaigning to save Cameron's bacon. If the referendum results in a leave vote - as I'm pretty certain it will - against Cameron's view, then he'll be finished. Given Corbyn's previous less than enthusiastic support of the EU project I can't help but think the labour party are saying one thing, but hoping for another.
A couple of questions
1) What is the sum of money paid out by the UK to citizens of other EU countries children living outside the UK?
2) How much money is paid by EU countries to British citizens living/working abroad with children back in the UK.
I don't think the current child benefit situation is satisfactory, but IMO not worth getting knickers in a twist over and leaving the EU.
I'll just leave this here.
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And yes, it's real.
A bigger pair of twunts I can hardly imagine.
I cannot decide which one to hit first
Newsflash the greatest surprise of our lifetime is upon us
There is unanimous support for a deal between the UK and the EU, European Council president Donald Tusk has said.
David Cameron said he would recommend the deal, which he said gives the UK "special status" in the EU, to his cabinet on Saturday.
The agreement reached following drawn-out negotiations in Brussels paves the way for the UK's EU referendum.
Downing Street said it included a "brake" on welfare payments that can apply for seven years.
SO people to the polls
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35616768
So, thats it. End of thread.
Call me Daves done it and we can all relax.
My choice remains as it did about 7 pages back, but less sceptical.
I'm in.
Sadly I say leave.
Gove is saying out, for thatcreason alone I'm in
Meanwhile at UKIP hq
Also, I'd like to point out it's nice the see Call Me Dave and his entourage put a days work in for a change.
I honestly DGAS about the media play up about all the hours he's put in, the hours he's stayed up and the meals he's allegedly missed.
Nice one Dave, welcome to the world of the Worker, stop whining and making it a big thing.
Get on with it Son.
One only has to look at the grey hair ratio (or extend of hair dye) and howit increases rapidly to realise that PMs work bloody hard and are under a lot of stress. Basic salary is hardly worth it, hence the (undignified if understandable)!dash for cash afterwards.
I was sceptical about this summit (?) largely because it missed the more fundamental questions that are crucial to a proper referendum, Nonetheless, a small hats of to Dave. Having read the leaked EU documentation (courtesy of the FT) there were "some" important issues to addresss and that was no easy task.
So a qualified "not bad" from me.
Now for the real issues.
@athgray, you are quite right, that issue alone is not the drving factor in a Leave/Remain decison.
This sums up Cameron's achievement perfectly 🙂
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it does not really- not in terms of what he tried to get and what he did get.It probably sums up how your average kiper feels though.
IMHO the rest is froth but the commitment that the uk is not tied to ever further integration is significant the rest is just an appeal to those who think immigrants come here to steal our benefits- the kindest i can call these folk is ill informed.
Exactly. Whatever deal Cameron got was always going to be decried as vastly insufficient by those that want to leave, and always bulled up as a great achievement and just what Britain needs by Cameron.
As for every increasing political union - there's not been much sign of that for these last 10 years has there? Especially for those countries outside the Euro. Still some talk about it, but no real action - or have I missed something?
Interesting for two reasons:
1) a la carte style EU. Which could be considered a necessity anyway because Euroscepticism is in no way an exclusively British sentiment.
2) All the major parties are now on the same side....
So for the lay-idiot, what's happened in words of one syllable?
Nowt @Kryton. He aksed for virtually nothing, secured that after a tough battle for PR purposes and will now campaign for Remain
As for every increasing political union - there's not been much sign of that for these last 10 years has there?
Really ? I thought you must be being facious but I fear not. If Cameron ahd actually asked for some real changes then I could have supported him but the list of demands was an absolute joke.
As an aside over the past few years there has been consistent pressure from the EU to get the UK (non euro member of course) to harmonise VAT with them, this means no discounts for electricity and gas and VAT on food.
As posted earlier the biggest danger imho is the Referendum is a close Leave and Cameron ignores the result and justifies this by going back for further "concessions". The French and Belgians for saw this and tried to get a agreement which said there would be no further discussions after the Referendum. Unlike the Scottish Referendum there is no Edinburgh Agreement to make it legally binding, just like Dave's fake concessions.
CFH the fact you have Farage and Galloway on the same platform shows that the issue is a real cross party / political spectrum one. Galloway (and Corbyn) recognise that the EU freedom of movement is fundamentally bad for the UK working class population
[I]A couple of questions
1) What is the sum of money paid out by the UK to citizens of other EU countries children living outside the UK?
2) How much money is paid by EU countries to British citizens living/working abroad with children back in the UK.[/I]
Top of previous page.
1) £30m apparently
2) Don't ask awkward questions 😉
Nige and the Cat on the same platform apparently caused a section of the Tory Eurosceptics in the audience to walk out. Rather than showing cross political concensus in my opinion it smacks of desperation and will not work to persuade floating voters.
It is interesting to see what would have normally have been regarded as the Tory Press really laying into Call Me Dave this morning and bigging up Gove/Pob. Don't they remember how unpopular he was amongst the general populace?
Oh, and the odious Toby Young thinks Brexit is a good idea, so another good reason not to vote No
As for every increasing political union - there's not been much sign of that for these last 10 years has there?Really ? I thought you must be being facious but I fear not. If Cameron ahd actually asked for some real changes then I could have supported him but the list of demands was an absolute joke.
As an aside over the past few years there has been consistent pressure from the EU to get the UK (non euro member of course) to harmonise VAT with them, this means no discounts for electricity and gas and VAT on food.
So an ignored request to harmonise a tax code is the best example you can find of "ever increasing political union" these last 10 years.
You haven't changed my mind.
Distasteful as it to find myself in agreement with Dave about anything, If you think we should be out of Europe then you'll find yourself in the company of Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith, Nigel Farage and George Galloway. Oh.... and the leader writers of the Daily Mail and Express.
All Dave needs to do is repeatedly point that out