[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

^^^ Just had some fun answering the above ...

Well, you've authored a great work of fiction, no wonder you enjoyed it. It's a pity though, because facts would be more useful, and your edits are somewhat light on those.

jambalaya - Member 
If you really believe that you are quite simply deluded tmh. Having the 1000's of pages of the various documents in front of you on a web page is one thing understanding how it really works is quite another.

I am with Boris, Gove, Hannan and all those in the Leave camp that share my view on how we will be obliged to pay up. Its all about the project or as Alex would say the dream. They won't allow that to die for the sake of a trillion euros.

Kind of sums up the whole debate.

My side of the argument: PRECEDENT plus FACTS contained in a legally binding arrangement

Your side of the argument: false/no representation of the past and "the word" of Bojo, Gove and Hannan

Sorry, who is deluded?

Not only that but the solution (sic) is worse than the status quo. You do make it up.

Remain paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist

Remain have played no part in this, hora

What happens if the referendum ends up with a 51-49 split for Remain, would that be considered a large enough margin to continue?

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.

Also, is the Guardians reporting on this actually viral marketing for the upcoming Independence Day film, it certainly has an apocalyptic feel to it?

More interesting is if it's 55:45 to leave, is anyone actually going to invoke the terms of the Lisbon treaty and start the 2 year exit process? Who's going to do this, and when?

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.

That's is interesting as I'm currently on my 43rd year in the UK and never met a single Brexit only those who post incorrect meme's on social media.

Maybe it means bog all about the people you meet.

It is very interesting how segregated the two camps are. Talking to university colleagues in the local city, they didn't take the leave campaign at all seriously, but round here in the villages full of retirees where I live it is very hard to find anyone admitting to vote remain (outside of a small coterie of enviro-radicals, and even many of them are undecided), nor have I seen a single poster from that camp. I saw more diversity in the last general election, even though I'm in the safest(?) tory seat in the country.

I know a few people who will be voting to leave the EU. None of them endorse Farage, Gove, Johnson etc in any way.

It is impressive the way the Leave side have turned government problems around to immigration.

Not enough GPs? It's not the government's fault for cutting health funding, it's the immigrants.

Housing too expensive? It's not restrictive planning laws and an economy built on a housing bubble, it's those pesky immigrants again.

No job? It's not the government's fault for not investing and growing the economy - yup, it's the immigrants' fault.

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.

Although much is made of the age differences between voting intentions imo the starkest difference in voting intentions is based on social class.

For many affluent middle-class professional types who have been spared the worse excesses of the neoliberal experiment, and feel that life couldn't really get much better for them, maintaining the status quo obviously has its perceived attraction.

Unlike you and Drac I have come into contact with both those supporting remaining and those opposed to remaining.

Repeatedly I find that those supporting remain tend to be professional and affluent whilst those voting to leave are much further down the social scale, eg, building workers like myself.

EDIT : And obviously to answer your question STW and the Guardian have a disproportionate level of professional affluent types, especially the Guardian.

Here's a pithy response I discovered...

[url= http://songbytoad.com/2016/06/the-uk-is-a-nation-of-idiots/ ]Pith[/url]

^ I approve this pith.

You're right about the rich/poor divide according to the [url= http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/britain-s-eu-referendum ]Economist poll tracker[/url], Ernie, however, it's age that seems to have the most influence. Young in, old out. Jamba is rich but still votes out because of his advancing years. 😉

Ben if your replace "immigrants" with "English/Westminster" does it ring a bell?!? 😉

Good graphage from the FT....

[img] ?oh=788ac9b97fa722c6df14352b43eae600&oe=57D1EE58[/img]

I just feel that a lot of a people voting out have been led up the garden path by an absolute conman, whos been able to dictate our political agenda for far too long

[img] [/img]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-farage-and-brexit-flotilla-should-stop-blaming-brussels-for-fishing-industry-problems-a7083641.html

I just feel that a lot of a people voting out have been led up the garden path by an absolute conman, whos been able to dictate our political agenda for far too long

Cameron? Osbourne?

The list is endless 😉

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/brexit-supporters-leave-vote-right?CMP=share_btn_tw ]Interesting Gruaniad article[/url]

Polly Toynbee spends time with Labour call centre folk and a Labour MP in a staunchly labour constituency, and the message is clear: you can explain it as clearly and as factually as you like, but the immigration and £350 million lies have struck a chord.

We're doomed. 🙁

That was a laugh, Woppit but in a style that it criticises others for. People aren't so much idiots as pawns in a propaganda war. It's not by insulting people that you'll persuade them to give up the misinformation they've been feeding on.

Ben if your replace "immigrants" with "English/Westminster" does it ring a bell?!?

Touché 😉

Difference is, Westminster is actually in charge of stuff.

My FIL is voting out (Express reader, over 70) to keep Muslim terrorists out so we don't have another 7/7...........

The fact they were born in Birmingham and there are no Muslim countries in the EU is beyond ironic.

@gordi yes exactly, as per the Guardian video in the potteries. When we try and discuss issues like immigration on here over the last 4 years all that comes back os "swivel eyed far right loon". The UK and the EU have had the warning signs for years and have ignored the issue. If we vote Leave and the EU collapses as it well might they will have only themselves to blame.

@ben, uncontrolled immigration makes all those things worse, thats the point. This government and everyone before it is spending more on health than ever before. If we had controlled immigration we could plan for housing and health and this fully cost immigration and make sure the immigrants are paying for these things or we understand that cheap farm labour might be cheap for the farmer but is potentially expensive for the country. Its easier for other countries as they don't have an NHS in the same way, you have to buy your health insurance. We have a situation where someone can come and earn £10k and pay not a penny but is entitled to in-work benefits and health care. If we don't LEAVE imho we need to revise our whole welfare system so its contributory as per France etc

@tmh a focus on "facts" is far too simplistic, you cannot predict the future and call it a fact, interpretingbthe past and present is hard enough. What you can so is look at the past and do that with the caveat that the past is likely to be different to the future. As for rescues and bailouts, I spent 20 years looking at bank sub-debt, its quite clear its subordinated to senior debt and senior to equity. That is except when the government decides to ignore the documentation and do what it wants. We've even had examples where senior debt has been prejudiced but equity has not been written off. Where a government (or supra-national body) has a will there is a way.

I see the BBC are covering a story that Germany believes a Brexit could threaten the whole EU. BINGO. That's why everyone wants us to stay. Its nothig to do with what's best for the UK but what's best for them.

@tmh a focus on "facts" is far too simplistic, you cannot predict the future and call it a fact, interpretingbthe past and present is hard enough. What you can so is look at the past and do that with the caveat that the past is likely to be different to the future

I see the BBC are covering a story that Germany believes a Brexit could threaten the whole EU. BINGO. That's why everyone wants us to stay. Its nothig to do with what's best for the UK but what's best for them.

I can see how the banking crisis came about now with people like jambalaya working in the industry. The term 'fact' seems to be completely arbitrary, if you don't like one you can just dismiss it as nonsense and then make up your own ones to replace it. Very similar attitude to risk pricing debt, just change sub prime to AAA and sell it on....

@pondo and @kimbers - let me try and help you out

Immigration is a real issue, people see it and feel it's impact EVERYDAY. They feel it as a real issue so it is a real issue. It is absolutely not an issue made up by politicains or the media. Leave campaign is responding to what the people want, wake up and smell the coffee.

It could have been dealt with by the EU, it is out of our control, but it was not. Today we see the consequences in this Referendum and throughout Europe. Austria votes 50.3 v 49.7, Germans set fire to refugee centres and march in their 10'000's every week, Front Nationale will replace Hollande's socialists in next years French Presidential elections

In my humble opinion this whole issue has been a classic example of failing to deal with a significant issue as its "too difficult" only to find, surprise surprise the situation gets worse not better.

@ben, uncontrolled immigration makes all those things worse, thats the point. This government and everyone before it is spending more on health than ever before.

There is no evidence the two are related at all.

The UK population is getting older and we're living longer, which is why health care costs will rise. Most immigrants are young and healthy and don't cost the NHS much at all.

It seems a lot of Brits are now wiling to admit they were duped into supporting the invasion of Iraq and then continuing to support the war because "we must support the troops".

If there's an out vote I think many will be feeling the same way in a few years time.

If there's an out vote I think many will be feeling the same way in a few years time.

The difference being we'll have shat in our own bed this time....

@footflaps you don't have the faintest idea who I am. Also the financial crises was about a whole lot more than the "banking industry" not least ludicrously lax regulation and governments turning a blind eye (note German state controlled banks where some of the worst offenders). I would have gone straight for credit controls, no mortgage without a deposit or full income verification, cap on credit card debt etc. Basic stuff that they have in many other countries. The UK banks which failed where all regional wannabees.

As an aside the soveriegn debt crises (eg Greece etc) has pretty much ZERO to do with the banking industry and is all about governments and frankly short sighted voters. The sovereign debt crises is going to make the 2007/8 credit crises look like a sunny day at the park.

There is no evidence the two are related at all.

That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day

So I should be increasing my exposure to non-Euro zone shares and decreasing my exposure to sovereign debt. That's a useful prediction, thanks, Jamba.

That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day

Again, that isn't even remotely true. What they see with their own eyes everyday, in a hospital, is a very diverse ethnic staff treating mainly old white british people.

What they read in the Daily Express is that the whole countries infrastructure has been overrun by immigrants.

The two are very different things....

@footflaps you don't have the faintest idea who I am

Completely deranged springs to mind.....

If immigration is uncontrolled, why are people hiding in the back of lorries?

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.

People I know voting out:
- My girlfriend's PhD educated, small business owning boss and her PhD educated husband. Both under 40. I think the other people who work there are also voting out.
- My girlfriend's funny-with-money and working-class Yorkshire parents (>70 years old), brother (36), aunt and uncle (both over 70, I think).

People I know who are voting in:
- Pretty much everyone I'm friends with on facebook (or so it would seem) the vast majority of whom are aged ?35 are university educated. In particular, the most vocal are the ones who either live overseas, are from overseas or have spouse/family from overseas.
(A notable exception to this is a gay, racist hairdresser who I slightly regret being facebook friends with)
- My old (>65) white, upper middle class parents. They can't remember the war, but can remember the aftermath, and I think this is the prime reason for voting in.

That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day

@pondo and @kimbers - let me try and help you out

Immigration is a real issue, people see it and feel it's impact EVERYDAY. They feel it as a real issue so it is a real issue. It is absolutely not an issue made up by politicains or the media. Leave campaign is responding to what the people want, wake up and smell the coffee.

It could have been dealt with by the EU, it is out of our control, but it was not. Today we see the consequences in this Referendum and throughout Europe. Austria votes 50.3 v 49.7, Germans set fire to refugee centres and march in their 10'000's every week, Front Nationale will replace Hollande's socialists in next years French Presidential elections

In my humble opinion this whole issue has been a classic example of failing to deal with a significant issue as its "too difficult" only to find, surprise surprise the situation gets worse not better.

I know we've been over this a million times but immigration is a net benefit to this country and the pressures on infrastructure and housing, such as they are, are self-inflicted.

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain

but immigration is a net benefit to this country and the pressures on infrastructure and housing, such as they are, are self-inflicted.

Yes, but those are just established facts and thus can be completely discounted in jambaland as being completely and utterly incorrect.

Which just proves that all immigrants are unequivocally bad under all circumstances...

I'm starting think he's the love child of Donald Trump and Nigel Farrage....

Sighhhhh it's much resort to blame foreigners Pondo

That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day

There's good evidence that amongst white brits negative attitudes to immigration are inversely correlated with the amount of immigrants who live in their area. That is, more immigrants, less anti-immigrant feeling amongst the natives.

I suspect that this is actually a function of economics. That is, immigrants generally don't move to economically deprived/depressed areas, they move to thriving economic centres like London or Manchester. Part (imo a large part) of anti-immigrant sentiment is that they're used as a scapegoat for all the nation's ills, so places which have more ills have more anti-immigrants sentiment. OTOH it could be because people who don't like immigrants move away or otherwise avoid areas with high levels of immigration.

That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people [s]see with their own eyes[/s]are told by the Murdoch machine every day

That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument

he also forgot that he presented it as an established fact only 3 posts earlier...

So we now have a deranged, amnesiac love child of Farrage / Trump.

@jambayla - of course, having control of the numbers entering the country is important. Sadly however, I have heard far too often now that immigration control is about keeping out Muslims because the Koran states they want to take over the world and their coming here to take over, change our laws and take over the world. All words I have heard from people on the leave side. Whether you like it or not, the discourse from the likes of the Mail has incited hatred and fear towards Muslims. That is why many people call it a racist vote.

That is why many people call it a racist vote.

Nothing to do with the leave campaign being borderline racist then.

jambalaya - Member
There is no evidence the two are related at all.
That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day

The sun goes round the earth. I see it every day with my own eyes. 🙄

@ben, uncontrolled immigration makes all those things worse, thats the point

Except it isn't, see below...*

@tmh a focus on "facts" is far too simplistic,

Well that explains the VL approach perfectly (explains * p1 too)

you cannot predict the future and call it a fact, interpretingbthe past and present is hard enough.

Agreed.

What you can so is look at the past

Hence the long lots of unanswered questions. Your team lie about the past and the present - consistently and blatantly - and have poorly thought through (it at all) ideas about the future.

Here's one chance to prove me wrong - answer the simple question about the nature of our past financial support for Greece.

As for rescues and bailouts, I spent 20 years looking at bank sub-debt, its quite clear its subordinated to senior debt and senior to equity. That is except when the government decides to ignore the documentation and do what it wants. We've even had examples where senior debt has been prejudiced but equity has not been written off. Where a government (or supra-national body) has a will there is a way.

As above, please remind us all how the UK financing worked in the past and what the EU has legally committed to in the future. Simple historic facts.

I agree that immigration is a real issue which is why it deserves to be dealt with accurately and honestly. Something the BSers have found impossible to do.

Shameful.

Simple historic facts.

You do know facts have been outlawed in jambaland? They have been replaced by 'opinion' which is considered to be a higher truth.

Not sure if we've done this, but I think it bears repeating at this point:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

Not sure if we've done this, but I think it bears repeating at this point:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html
br />

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html ]It's not just the EU and immigration we're wrong about.[/url] The thing that always gets me about these sort of surveys is that the direction of travel is always so bloody predictable, i.e. people are always wrong in a way that fits with the right-wing press's agenda. On immigration, people think that there are more immigrants taking a higher proportion of benefits, because it suits the media that people would believe that. On crime, people think that the country is a vastly more crime-ridden place than it is because the media would prefer us to be afraid of our fellow citizens. On welfare recipients, people believe that the amount of fraud is vastly more than it is, because the media and their paymasters want to cut the welfare state. Et cetera, et cetera.

Farage "immigration has called all the problems"

Cameron/ Osbourne "no it was us we just hid behind immigration when it suited us"

Like the way Labour are saying we need controls on freedom of movement! FFS bit self defeating that, if I wanted controls on freedom of movement I know which way I'd vote.

You do know facts have been outlawed in jambaland? They have been replaced by 'opinion' which is considered to be a higher truth.

Sadly its also true that they do this

@junkyard
[/quoteAre you only attending UKIP rallies

I'm beginning to think so 🙂

Just staying with my parents and visiting friends and family, m8x of professionals, working class (sister is a cleaner etc) and retirees.

 

stewartc - Member

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.

Predominately "out" in my pub, though I did catch a few of my regulars comparing home made tattoos the other day.
Make of that what you will. 😆

Surprisingly it's the eldest of my customers that are leaning towards remain, quoting fears over pension values.

Interesting video: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/jun/16/lets-talk-about-immigration-eu-referendum-video

The UKIP guy does nail it with a new class war between poor and rich, poor being mainly out....

[i]The UKIP guy does nail it with a new class war between poor and rich, poor being mainly out.... [/i]

And how many of the poor are poor because they're, to put it plainly, thick - consequently they're unable to actually understand facts and work out the consequences of those facts?

And how many of the poor are poor because they're, to put it plainly, thick - consequently they're unable to actually understand facts and work out the consequences of those facts?

In their defence the likes of Murdoch and the Barclay Brothers etc have been feeding them lies 24/7 for several years now....

Its not all about those pesky immigrants, brexits economic policy has finally broken cover:

[url=

we go.[/url]

Its not all about those pesky immigrants

You sure?

[img] [/img]

The UKIP guy does nail it with a new class war between poor and rich, poor being mainly out....

And how many of the poor are poor because they're, to put it plainly, thick - consequently they're unable to actually understand facts and work out the consequences of those facts?

So in summing up then leave the thickos here to fester in their own cider or till the benefits run out and move to europe? with the rich posh folks.

I guess post Brexit we will clamour to leave the European Space Agency.
Our space programme will then consist of a very tall ladder.
Our Hadron Collider will consist of watching atoms in a cement mixer.
It will be shit but hey it's a purely plucky 100 % English affair.

The certainty of staying in the EU is worse than the uncertainty of leaving the EU ..

Farage has only went and gone full Hitler:

[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7284/27631948361_62d5b1c0ee_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7284/27631948361_62d5b1c0ee_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

On the left: an actual Nazi propaganda film
On the right: Nigel Farage, today

Will be interesting in a few years time to see how many of the bad things that were predicted to happen (for both staying and leaving) actually happen as a result of the U.K. staying or leaving.

It seems to me that immigration is really a non-issue and the EU fee is also really a non-issue as it is such a small proportion of the economy as a whole. Trade tarrifs and free movement are also not an issue, we can just go with the WTO tarrifs.

So it is really whether we want to eventually be subsumed into the EU federal state or not.

On the Paxman documentary there was a section where Cameron was talking to some other EU leader, and Merkel came in to the room and went straight up to the guy Cameron was talking to and shook his hand, effectively ignoring Cameron completely. I think that says it all.

You sure?

You do realise that was a joke?

But since you are posting graphs, all that has pointed out is that some tory and and pretty much given all ukip supporters are concerned about immigration.

The certainty of staying in the EU is worse than the uncertainty of leaving the EU ..

Cryptic...

All of the 'this will/won’t happen if we leave' also hinges on the premise that the EU will stay the same as it is now minus the UK.

If we do leave, what are the chances that other countries would look to leave the cosseting embrace of the EU as well? How unstable would the EU be if we left or would they hardly notice the door closing behind us?

t is really whether we want to eventually be subsumed into the EU federal state or not.

Merkel came in to the room and went straight up to the guy Cameron was talking to and shook his hand, effectively ignoring Cameron completely. I think that says it all.

Thanks for the info.

I am definitely voting based entirely how she shakes hands with folks

it was the way she blanked/cut-off Cameron that held the message.

You do realise that was a joke?

Yep, but your comment reminded me of that graph, so I posted it....

effectively ignoring Cameron completely.

To be fair, she must be sick and tired of him by now. Put up or shut up springs to mind.

it was the way she blanked/cut-off Cameron that held the message.

what was the message, she doesnt like oily PR douchebags?

high five merkel!

Haven't seen the clip, but what was the context?

I frequently go to meetings where some parties have had a "pre-meeting" or had met earlier in the day, in which case the focus is entirely on the "new" attendee... (no idea if this applies, but could be one explanation - isn't diplomatic protocol normally fairly rigorous???)

She must be sick to death of Cameron and Britain. We do nothing but moan, are totally unconstructive and endlessly try and get special status / exemption from everything. It's like having a contract where every 10 minutes the customer phones up and asks to change the terms of the deal....

b r - Member

And how many of the poor are poor because they're, to put it plainly, thick - consequently they're unable to actually understand facts and work out the consequences of those facts?

Well obviously poor people are poor because they are thick, whilst really wealthy people are incredibly intelligent.

I reckon THM is probably so rich that he's close to making it onto the Forbes List, if he hasn't already.

[i]it was the way she blanked/cut-off Cameron that held the message. [/i]

or in true continental style she'd already shook hands with Cameron earlier in the day and hadn't with the chap he was talking to?

This use to catch me out when in France (many years ago I had a team in Paris along with my UK ones). As I have the memory of a sieve and I'd struggle to remember who'd I'd met that day and who I hadn't - major faux pas 😉

[i]Well obviously poor people are poor because they are thick, whilst really wealthy people are incredibly intelligent[/i]

Not at all what I said.

"Exactly WHERE are all these Eastern Europeans coming from? "

"Exactly WHERE are all these Eastern Europeans coming from? "

Essex.

Not at all what I said.

As you can see I copied and pasted what you said, which included :

[i][b]"And how many of the poor are poor because they're, to put it plainly, thick"[/i][/b]

The bit about [i]"poor people are poor because they are thick, whilst really wealthy people are incredibly intelligent"[/i] is what I said, which is why I kept it out of the quotation box.

I can't see a problem with it. Unless you are challenging my logic?