[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Binners because the 28 members of the EU have a very different agenda than do we the UK, the fifth richest country in the world.

That or just see that odious Gove wants out, and therefore staying in is clearly right.

I can't predict the future, I can make an assesment that focusing on high growth economies away from the stagnant EU is the smart way to go.

Which ones? Economies starting from a low level, with little social protection etc., or advanced economies like ... err .. Japan? Which are these models that we should be emulating?

jambalaya - Member
Judging by the standard of living of my European colleague
25% Youth unemployment and 10% overall would suggest that's not the whole story

uk sits around 15% youth unemployment, and the EU figure is obviously skewed but southern europe, so it's not as simple a consideration of 25% youth unemployment. It's a bit more complex than that.

Binners because the 28 members of the EU have a very different agenda than do we the UK

Well lets see? This is fundamentally about trade, so

X's of G&S (%GDP): Germany 46%; France 29%; UK 29%
M's of G&S (%GDP): Germany 39%; France 31%; 31%

So all three major economies actively engaged in trade - [b]so making it easier is mutually beneficial.[/b] So who with?

Top X partners

Germany: [b]France, US, UK, China, Netherlands[/b], Austria, [b]Italy,[/b] Poland, [b]Switz, Belgium[/b]
France: [b]Germ, Belg, It,[/b] Sp, [b]UK, US, Neth, China, Switz, [/b]Poland
UK: [b]US, Germany, Neth, Switz, Fr,[/b] Irelan, [b]China, Belg,[/b] Sp, [b]It[/b]

Bold indicates countries inclusive to all lists (plus each other)

Top M partners

Germany: [b]Neth, China, France, US, Italy[/b], Switz, Pol, [b]Belgium,[/b] Russia, [b]UK [/b](phew made it!)
France: [b]Germany; China, Belgium, Italy, US,[/b] Spain, [b]Neth, UK, Switz,[/b] Russia
UK: [b]Germany, China, US, Neth, Fr, Belg, Italy, [/b]Norway, Spain, Ireland

[b]So in terms of trade a lot of common interest in terms of the importance of trade and who we trade with.[/b]

So what? We have very similar agendas rather than very different ones.

[b]"We" not "Then versus Us" [/b] (unless you are a xenophobe) !!

A few pages back Jamba claimed France had become EU Skeptic. I've now gone through polls over several years and haven't found one more EU skeptic than 55% remain to 45% Frexit (stripping out the don't knows). Perhaps I've missed something. In terms of demands for a referendum, about 50% are in favour.

The euro is the EU, all countires have to commit to join, it is the medium term objective.

Really? Where's it say that?

Really? Where's it say that?

I don't know, but IIRC "newly joining" countries have to "aspire" to joining the Euro at some future appropriate time, hence Poland may want to but can't, Sweden are supposed to but have decided that they will "aspire" for a bit longer. UK and DK have specific opt-outs from the Euro.

Dr J is correct on the Euro - the Eu also said they would not try to force Sweden to join

Perhaps I've missed something

Ask him for a source it will be futile but you might as well learn that lesson now and save yourself some time.

That or just see that odious Gove wants out, and therefore staying in is clearly right.

...or just see that odious Blair wants in, and therefore voting out is clearly right.

I'll see your Blair and raise you one opportunistic weasel Boris.

(This could run)

[I]Shows the power of misinformation and scaremongering. Not to mention the difficulty in seeing through the nonsense to make an informed choice.[/I]

More of the same, bottom line, don't trust what the British Public thinks...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html

I'll see your Blair and raise you one opportunistic weasel Boris.

Did you listen to the Today programme this morning? Reporter at a factory making fancy boxes, and employing up to 50% seasonal workers. Reporter asked employee if she was voting In or Out. Employee said OUT. Reporter asked why and was told because of immigration. When quizzed on whether she thought this was odd, considering where she worked, the employee replied (and this could be a summary of the entire Brexit argument "these are fine, it's the others I don't want".

Facepalm.

mikewsmith - Member

I'll see your Blair and raise you one opportunistic weasel Boris

Can I place a side bet using chewkw (think he is 50:50 though

I call them zombie maggots ...

[b]ALL of them[/b] including the politicians you worship coz I treat them the same as they are the lowest of the low.

Go on worship you leader ... left, right and centre and those in the EU ... 😀

Can I place a side bet using chewkw (think he is 50:50 though

I doubt it - what do you think he's worth ?

Remain vote sent

DrJ - Member

Can I place a side bet using chewkw (think he is 50:50 though

I doubt it - what do you think he's worth ?

More than the zombie maggots you worship I hope.

In the far east people worship political zombie maggots or be part of their entourage because they get land title ... yes, land title, virgin forest to cut at will, they become Lord indirectly kickbacks, they get mega contracts, they get to step on the the ordinary people ...

But you lot worship your political overlords as if they are your moral guide ... I mean there are dumb and there are dumber. Which are you?

what do you think he's worth ?

come on, i think youll find that the outies have by far the lead in unpleasant supporters

(pinched from fb)

innies...

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke
• Nadine Dorries

Keith Chegwin you say? That settles it.

Junkyard - lazarus

what do you think he's worth ?

His silence is priceless his posts are worthless

So whose ancestors are you defending? 😆

I do despair of the whole "debate", there are some who, I think they're wrong, who do believe that leaving the EU will improve the UK, that it will increase trade etc. and if you genuinely believe that then I respect your view. I tend to look at Westminster and having seen how incapable they are of negotiating anything am of the opinion going forward they will only screw the UK. The UK is not in a strong position when it comes to negating with China or India for example.

However the "debate" isn't really about that, it is about them. More and more the whole argument is about stopping immigration, yet if you read the official literature there is no talk of stopping immigration merely controlling it. Or in the words of the Tories increasing red tape.

If Brexit wins I fear that there are going to be a lot of brexit supporters who are going to feel very unhappy when they realise what they have actually got.

You forgot that the CEO of JCB and Dyson have endorsed leave - two of the most successful self made exporters around who have succeeded despite the EU and not because of it. On the issue of trade and the economy they know a bit more than any plitician, banker or economist as they live and breathe it every day, know the global economic landscape better than anyone and what is needed for the UK to thrive given the way the world is going. They've thrived through recessions and other economic challenges. I personally am more likely to take a steer from those guys on the issue of trade and the economy.

mrmo - Member
If Brexit wins I fear that there are going to be a lot of brexit supporters who are going to feel very unhappy when they realise what they have actually got.

I think you should not be concerned if they are happy or not.

The question is are you happy?

If you are not happy then what do you intend to do about it?

As for capable of governing ... oh c'mon ... you got to be born yesterday to say that because it is so wrong I don't know where to start.

Have you actually seen far east politics in action? 😆

Why would anyone take notice of Dyson?

wobbliscott - Member
You forgot that the CEO of JCB and Dyson have endorsed leave - two of the most successful self made exporters around who have succeeded despite the EU and not because of it.

Where do they rank in terms of exporters?

What about all the other CEOs backing remain?

What happens to UK and other 'leading' economies if/when Italy's economy vaporises like Greece? And Spain?

I suppose my main concern is that there isn't enough in the pit to keep bailing out failing countries. That said, quantative easing usually seems to be the answer. So apparently there's no such thing as broke.

Why would anyone take notice of Dyson?

his opinion sucks.

There's a few more on the brexit movie, the boss of JML who sells all over the world, for exmaple.

You forgot that the CEO of JCB and Dyson have endorsed leave -

I personally am more likely to take a steer from those guys on the issue of trade and the economy.

Dyson moved manufacturing out of the UK, so he isn't an "exporter" as far as this country is concerned.

from wiki

Production moves to Malaysia[edit]

Initially, Dyson vacuum cleaners and washing machines were made in Malmesbury, Wiltshire. In 2002, the company transferred vacuum cleaner production to Malaysia. Dyson stated that the company requested planning permission to expand the factory to increase vacuum cleaner production, but that this application failed. However, the local government says that no such permission was ever sought, as the land Dyson planned to use was privately owned and the original owner did not want to sell.[26] The move was also due to the most suppliers being located in the Far East and Dyson wanted to get as close as possible to be cost effective.[27] Also, at the time of the interview, James Dyson mentioned that the market was largest in New Zealand, Australia, Japan and potentially in the Far East market, and therefore the decision to shift production to Far East was driven by the need to get closer to the consumer base. As Dyson was the major manufacturing company in Wiltshire, outside Swindon, this move created some controversy as trade unionists claimed that the move would impact the local economy hard.[28]

In the following year, washing machine production was also moved to Malaysia.[29] The move was driven by production costs in Malaysia which are lower by 30% compared with the UK, however it created a loss of 65 jobs.[30]

In 2004, the Meiban-Dyson Laundry Manufacturing Plant was launched in Johor, Malaysia. The newly opened RM 10 million (approx. $2.63 million) plant is a joint venture between Dyson and the Singapore-based Meiban Group Ltd., which has manufacturing facilities in Singapore, Malaysia and China.[31]

Dyson stated that the cost savings from transferring production to Malaysia enabled investment in research & development at their Malmesbury head office.[32]

In 2007 Dyson formed a partnership with the Malaysian electronics manufacturer VS Industry Bhd (VSI) to take on a major role in Dyson's supply chain, from raw material sourcing and production to distribution. VSI also undertook an extensive production plan to supply finished product to Dyson's destination markets around the globe (America, UK, Japan, etc.).[33]

While it is often mentioned that Dyson has nearly 4,000 employees,[34] Dyson has not publicly stated where those employees are actually located, however, it is known that VS Industry Bhd (VSI) currently has around 4,250 employees at their Malaysian facility which manufactures Dyson products,[35] and in 2007 it was reported that Dyson alone was responsible for 80% of VS Industry Bhd (VSI) revenue.[36]
[\quote]

 

[quote=rkk01 ]Why would anyone take notice of Dyson?

You could say the same about 90% of the other people on that list though.

I mean why should I care that the President of ****stan, the NUS or Hulk Hogan are Remainians?

Utterly brilliant Guardian correspondents dispatch from the the Labour heartlands:

My point being that Dyson is not a major UK employer. Yes, very supportive of R&D and has innovative products...

But manufacturing jobs are all offshore in lower wage economies - claimed to be to serve the Pacific markets and allow UK R&D investment(both fair enough).

But what about the UK economy??? Jobs for UK workers?

The biggest problem is that no one really knows anything, for sure. BY remaining in the Eu we have no guarantees about what the future will look like or what future demands will be, or what rebates we will get. The outers don't really know anything for sure either because it's all a bit unknown. The politicians seem incapable of actually disussing the realities or lookinbg at what the real issues might be. Not entirely sure I would trust all these so called business leaders or CEOs as, for the most part, I suspect their primary motivator is what will keep their company most profitable and this keep them in the money - and not whether it is the best thing for the country as a whole. I have found the whole debate pretty dispiriting really and it has done nothing to show politics in this country in a good light.

Personally, I would rather be out. I accept that this may cause us some financial pain as a country for a while. However, my main reason for wanting out is that I do not trust the EU as a political entity and what their longer term, as yet unspoken, aims might be. It's a bit of a nonsense for inners to say that we are best being inside so that we can drive reform because, let's face it, we haven't really done a whole lot of that so far. So what will prompt us to suddenly change and begin to drive for reform? I am not anti European. I think we are pretty privileged to live in this part of the world and we have a continent of neighbours who have fascinating and diverse histories, cultures, languages, customs and landscapes. I would prefer it that we stuck with the original aim of being more relaxed about trading between ourselves. I am not agianst immigration either as I think it is a good thing. We have a long hostory of welcoming people to these shores but we also have to face the fact that we cannot support or sustain the potential for a large influx of Europeans. This referendum feels like the last chance we have, as a country, to say we are not happy with the way things are going and give ourselves the option to get out before it becomes impossible to. Again, there is a sense that the EU is a slow and steady march to tighter integration to absorb and consume all of the European nations into a single conglomeration that isn't, I feel, in the interests of any of us except perhaps the politicians and apparatchiks at the very centre of this project. And when these sorts of people are lined up at the feeding trough it is almost always bad news for us, the little people.

I do appreciate that leaving will have consequences and there will be a whole raft of little things that may, in the short term, look like colossal losses, but taking the long term view of steeping out of it I feel is the right thing for this country.

Utterly brilliant Guardian correspondents dispatch from the the Labour heartlands:

Ninfan. [b]Hats off, that is an outstanding find[/b]. 9/10 for Leave in a Labour heartland. That final sentence says it all to about Labour too, they've lost touch with their voters.

That's a must watch for everyone here. Kmbers feel free to take that list of global political oranisations who supprt another refgional political organisation o Stoke on Trent and see how you get on.

@Edukator I'd call 55/45 highly Euroskeptic from a country supposedly at the heart of Europe and the €, in fact it was those numbers I was usng to justify my statement. Marine LePenn is going to eliminate Hollande from the Presidential ballot in 2017 and she's going to do it on a euroskeptic platfom.

Not entirely sure I would trust all these so called business leaders or CEOs as, for the most part, I suspect their primary motivator is what will keep their company most profitable

Yes - but that profitability is what keeps their employees (UK Joe Public) in jobs...

Again, there is a sense that the EU is a slow and steady march to tighter integration to absorb and consume all of the European nations into a single conglomeration

I'm not sure that this is really the case... 5-10 years ago perhaps, and amongst the core Franco-German membership. UK isn't the only non-Eurozone country by a long way... the Scandinavians are going to sit there quietly getting on with their own take on EU membership, just as we have.

In some ways the accession of the eastern countries has also made a single European state much less likely. Tensions with Russia along the Eastern border would be come intolerable (to the Russians) long before there was a USoE.

As I said, perhaps a political dream of the core members, but surely a very unlikely outcome irrespective of UK decision

Jamba, what praises do you have of the EU?

Sorry just seen this, given I am in such a positive mood after watching the video ninfan posted I most definitely owe you a reply

Freetrade agreement - definitely number 1 (this could and should exist totally indepedent of EU membership & freedom of movement of people and should do so without any budgetary contributions OR better yet all cross border trade should be taxed/dutied say 0.5%-1% and that is the budget)

Euro "NHS" card

Photo driving licences

European Arrest Warrant/Extradition treaty

Thats about it, other stuff like clean beaches we could do anyway, car emissions have been a vested interest disaster to conteract any good done elsewhere wrt enviironment

I am in such a positive mood after watching the video ninfan posted

You're in a positive mood after seeing a parade of ignorant people making a self-defeating decision out of desperation? What a nice guy you are!

You're in a positive mood after seeing a parade of ignorant people making a self-defeating decision out of desperation? What a nice guy you are!

Why the need to sneer at those people DrJ?

Why the need to sneer at those people DrJ?

What do you perceive as "sneering" ?

cinnamon_girl - Member
Why the need to sneer at those people DrJ?

mmmhhhmmmm!

(one hand on hip while the other hand with one finger pointing wagging no no )

You go girl!

(speaking with head movement side way)

😆

other stuff like clean beaches we could do anyway

This is the huge one for me - WOULD WE?

The EU seems to come out with far more environmental legislation than our government. It's as if they feel more comfortable imposing restraints on pollution than any domestic party.

What do you perceive as "sneering" ?

DrJ - you referred to them as ignorant.

You go girl!

chewkw - 😆

I think the good Dr was being harsh - as Brexiters go, they appeared among the more thoughtful and informed.

I loved The taxi drivers defiance. But my fave bit was at 8:16

DrJ - you referred to them as ignorant.

Aah, I see. Perhaps you are ignorant as to the meaning of the word "ignorant"?

Have mostly avoided this thread as it's brought out the worst in some Forumites. It's not been a genuine debate and some of the dialogue has been unpleasant. Will leave it there.

as Brexiters go, they appeared among the more thoughtful and informed.

I think that comes under the heading of "damning with faint praise" 🙂

DrJ - Member

DrJ - you referred to them as ignorant.

Aah, I see. Perhaps you are ignorant as to the meaning of the word "ignorant"?

Ooooo! ... DrJ does not like that. 😆

DrJ does not like to be called ignorant. 😆

or a joke? 😉

An out vote will send the Tories further to the right and will split the Labour party.

The Tories current position of being "centre" right will change, they will become just plain right-wing, as their right wing has won the referendum - with little EU red tape to hold them back and another 4 years in office who knows the extent of the "shift to the right" where the Tories could go.

In the short term the labour party are finished. In the longer term a need will arise for a credible centre-left party to counter an increasingly right wing Tory party.

At the last election that was Labour's problem - the Tories had claimed the centre ground leaving Labour floundering.

An out vote will change domestic politics significantly. Labour are already teetering on the brink of a split, the consequences of an out-vote will make this a certainty.

An out vote could mean 4 years of a very right wing Tory party, and unless Labour gets its act together no one to occupy the centre (left) ground.

A "remain" vote means that the "centre" will be taken by the Tories. Labour will consigned to a plaything of Corbyn. A sort of student politics from a party that well knows they will never get in to power.

ninfan - Member
Utterly brilliant Guardian correspondents dispatch from the the Labour heartlands:

I say we put stoke up for a collective Mensa membership! Who could argue with the logic that we should vote out because British politicians do heehaw for their community! Jeenyis! Bloody immigrants! 😆

teamhurtmore - Member

or a joke?

That DrJ does not want to be ignorant ... 😆

mawdesleytractor - Member

An out vote will send the Tories further to the right and will split the Labour party.

The Tories current position of being "centre" right will change, they will become just plain right-wing, as their right wing has won the referendum - with little EU red tape to hold them back and another 4 years in office who knows the extent of the "shift to the right" where the Tories could go.

In the short term the labour party are finished. In the longer term a need will arise for a credible centre-left party to counter an increasingly right wing Tory party.

You worry to much. They are politicians they are ALL the same!

Nothing has been won yet ...

Labour still have Kinnock junior ... think this bloke is slowly inching towards the front bench. The Kinnock dynasty is so rich they make a mockery of Welsh people ... what you say? Welsh lamb taste good?

I say we put stoke up for a collective Mensa membership!

Who for? The Labour Party strategists who are now so far removed from their core electorate that they might as well be warning them of Champagne shortages if we vote out 😆

You're in a positive mood after seeing a parade of ignorant people making a self-defeating decision out of desperation? What a nice guy you are!

DrJ cinnamon_girl hit the nail on the head with her response. We live in a democracy, we all get the same vote - 1. People may cast that vote as they see fit based on whatever information they choose to assimilate. You don't get 3 votes for a PhD and me 2 for an MSc. As as for self-defeating IMO they are voting quite correctly for what is in their and the countries best interests and that's a vote to Leave.

The Labour Party made up one of their campaign mugs before the 2015 GE with the world [b]Immigration[/b], elements of the party lead by Diane Abbot crushed it - "its not who we are". The Labour party's problem is that it is not listening to its voters, which frankly doesn't surprise me as the left wing is all about central control in the name of "the people".

STW's most consistently left wing poster is voting Leave, this is not an issue divided on party political grounds

this is not an issue divided on party political grounds

True for traditional party voters. However you could group UKIP and disillusioned traditional party voters on one side, and continuity traditional voters on the other side.

We live in a democracy, we all get the same vote - 1. People may cast that vote as they see fit based on whatever information they choose to assimilate.

Quite so, but all choices are not equal. A person can spend all their dole money on extra strength cider if they wish, but that is not a good choice either. As for self-defeating - we will see. You can afford to be wrong - you are well enough off to absorb the loss if you are wrong. These people cannot, and they are being sold a lie. You are playing fast and loose with other people's lives.

You don't get 3 votes for a PhD and me 2 for an MSc.

What about if I write page after page of 'City Speak' with a various statistics and facts thrown in, thus proving how clever I am....Surely that's worth at least two votes? 😯

My question is.
If the vote does go to leave, then nothing fundamentally changes in terms of wages etc what will the brexiters blame it on next?

What makes you thnk they'll give a sht? Boris will be PM and that's all that counts. The rest will be just collateral damage.

The democratic thing isn't quite right in this election. British citizens who have made the most of EU freedom of movement and haven't been resident in the UK for more than 15 years can't vote. The very people who stand to lose the most if the UK pulls out can't vote to stay in. I'm dual nationality so will be less impacted than most but still feel a little frustrated that I can't vote. I can't find any statistics on how many EU expats can't vote because of the 15 year rule but there are enough to swing a close vote:

[img] ?w=736[/img]

I can vote in French elections wherever I live for however long.

Boris will be PM

You'll never catch me voting for the lying feker..

Surely that's worth at least two votes?

Is that like an Arsenal goal being worth double because they pass it around so much first ?

Edukator, I like that part of the French system. IMO Brits living abroad should be able to vote for "ex-pat" MPs too.

DrJ you see I think vote Leave is good for the less well off as I am not of the view that the Tories are out to screw them at every turn. I think free movement hurts the less well off very badly indeed. The reason I posted that I think Remain is the best for me financially in the short term as I think it will lead to further house price rises and falls in basic labour costs.

You'll never catch me voting for the lying feker..

A very shy Tory indeed then 😉

As you can see from the Guardian video a number of Brexiters don't want to say so as they are afraid of being labelled (a racist etc)

Jamba. In what way will falling labour costs help those at the bottom then? Or do you just not care about them?

People may cast that vote as they see fit based on whatever information they choose to assimilate.

The Labour party's problem is that it is not listening to its voters,

STW's most consistently left wing poster is voting Leave,

The very people who stand to lose the most if the UK pulls out can't vote to stay in.

A very shy Tory indeed then

FYI I've voted for all 3 main parties over the years - back when the Lib Dems were a party that is!

Well the vote might deny him the right to work in most of Europe like anyone else with a British passport.

It not pandering to ignorant racist stupid views

[img] [/img]

Did you watch the video Junky? I would ****ing love to see you tell that Taxi driver he was racist 😆

I think free movement hurts the less well off [b]very badly [/b]indeed.

Ok, here's a challenge. Can you find one (yes only one) piece of credible research (ie not the Wail or Express) that supports this idea?

Or does "very badly" equate to "many millions of Poles"? 😉

I watched some of it but skimmed it in the main, I did not see the taxi driver.Time stamp please?

I would ****ing love to see you tell that Taxi driver he was racist

7:10, the racist ****.

😉 opens this up and thought I read Z11, the racist **** 😉

Ok, here's a challenge. Can you find one (yes only one) piece of credible research (ie not the Wail or Express) that supports this idea?

Or does "very badly" equate to "many millions of Poles"?

TMH you are being partial and simplistic. The free movement of labour, as one of the three pillars, makes perfect sense in a functioning political and economic union - e.g. the US or the UK where surplus and deficit can neatly compensate. Where it falls down is when economic/employment conditions are too divergent between pools of labour such that the transfer is only ever going to be one way; where labour is co-opted/adopted unplanned from even more benighted locations not even in the union (our 1m 'Syrians'); where benefit regimes differ such that the UK has 'pull factors' outside of economic growth (being benefits based on residence and not 'time served'); and where the other pillars required to make the theory work are only partially implemented, or more likely blocked by vested interests who fear UK competition in services. Self evidently the free movement of labour within the EU is no panacea.

PS, this:

as Brexiters go, they appeared among the more thoughtful and informed.

is pretty unpleasant, patronising and supercilious. You need to work on this as not everyone is as stupid as you seem to think.

In or OUT ...

Someone please bribe me to vote Labour please ...

I want kickbacks to vote Labour.

😆

Jamba. In what way will falling labour costs help those at the bottom then? Or do you just not care about them

Not at all @graham which is why I'm vote Leave. I was speculating about how Remain would be better for me personally, selfishly almost, in the short term (mainly due to higher house prices)

@mrleb my post was rather tongue in cheek but thanks for responding, you and me both.

Well, about a week until the next recession. I've stocked up on tins of beans.

TMH you are being partial and simplistic.

I'll take that as a no then, from both of you. Go on - one link!!

The free movement of labour, as one of the three pillars, makes perfect sense in a functioning political and economic union

More than that, it is a prerequisite of a common or optimum currency area

Where it falls down is when economic/employment conditions are too divergent between pools of labour such that the transfer is only ever going to be one way;

Good job that is not happening then isn't it

where labour is co-opted/adopted unplanned from even more benighted locations not even in the union (our 1m 'Syrians');

Are we talking abut refugees or immigrants now or deliberately conflating the two? Remind me of our legal requirement re refugees from conflict and who determines that?

where benefit regimes differ such that the UK has 'pull factors' outside of economic growth (being benefits based on residence and not 'time served');

Ok, I might give you that one...[bugger that as a relatively prosperous economy, we have relatively generous provision for the needy!]

and where the other pillars required to make the theory work are only partially implemented,

...and that one, but..

Self evidently the free movement of labour within the EU is no panacea.

...that comes from nowhere. Who is making that claim anyway? Seems a bit "partial and simplistic" there to me

You need to work on this as not everyone is as stupid as you seem to think.

Sorry are you suggesting that they were neither thoughtful nor informed, even stupid!?! THAT is is pretty unpleasant etc...