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"Unpatriotic", "whingers", "whiners" and many more, outofbreath.
I haven't heard the first at all, and "whingers" & "whiners" has only occurred post result so can't have influenced the outcome. ....plus "whingers" & "whiners" is utterly benign compared with 'racist' which in our society is one of the worst things you can be accused of.
If racists feel that being called a racists is abusive, may I suggest that they stop being racists instead of crying?
Which just defines the problem with the strategy.
A racist doesn't GAF about being called racist so you don't win them over to remain by calling them racist. Meanwhile the 99.999pc of non-racists just feel alienated by the people calling them racist and become slightly more inclined to not vote or vote Brexit.
A 1pc swing would have won it for remain. Do you seriously think that being called racist didn't drive 1pc of undecided people away and therefore swing the whole vote?
So what were remain supposed to do then, THM? An attempt to be reasonable is constantly labeled "project fear" on this thread when in fact the reasons for remaining were: humanist, economic, in the interest of minorities and the vulnerable, practical, forward looking... .
The logic-based remain campaign didn't appeal to the lowest instincts of the population, the bile of the gutter press did. How should remain have fought in a dirty fight, dirty? So the campaign failed because remain didn't fight dirty and you expect me to accept the ref's verdict that despite the leave corner poking people's eyes out and kicking them in the nuts they won fair and square.
Leave campaign winning approach
1) lie about the NHS
2) stoke up fear about immigrants
3) suggest we'll be better off out economically
4) combine all of the above into one message that can be repeated and hits home
How was Remain supposed to honestly counteract this winning approach?
1) point out the lies (and face being accused of calling voters stupid)
2) point out the benefits of immigration and that we have controls (and face accusations of calling voters racist)
3) point out what we stand to lose economically (and be accused of Project Fear)
4) point out the message is disingenuous (and draw attention to the bullishit that then sticks harder)
[ edit : we already have plenty of links in this thread about Dominic Cummings' comments post referendum, but here's a short reminder for those who missed them http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/ ]
[ edit : for those that don't follow links, [b][i]"Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No"[/i][/b]]
Or less than 20% of their lives.
...and you think that is unreasonable, the simple fact is the UK citizens who had a reasonable connection with the country and were registered in the recent past could vote, which is kind of the opposite of what you suggested.
humanist, economic, in the interest of minorities and the vulnerable, practical, forward looking... .
I will give you economic, that's it.
The problem with "project fear" was it was over the top and invited ridicule. Illustrated by the fact the soothsayer after soothsayer has had to eat humble pie, PWC being the latest yesterday.
So a British business man resident in France and doing business that is highly beneficial to Britain should have no vote in your view, Mefty.
But a senile pensioner can be picked up and driven to the polling station by a UKIP man who feeds them WWI propaganda and tells them to vote leave is OK by you.
In Scotland the Remain campaign was lacklustre and low key. Yet it was able to gather support from both nationalist and unionist and won by a wide margin.
The Leave campaign was widely unpopular even among Leave voters.
IMO Remain would have been better served with a more positive campaign. David Cameron should have learned from the Indy ref where the BetterTogether campaign self titled Project Fear managed to win but only by a much narrower margin than expected at the start of the campaign
Mefty has it right
The problem with "project fear" was it was over the top and invited ridicule
IMO another issue in the EU referendum is the role of the press and media.
It is a system - a perfectly reasonable one that gives the vast majority of UK expats the right to vote - arguing hypotheticals is pointless.
Interesting that one of the strongest correlations in the referendum was educational attainment, before I get set upon I am not advocating lack of higher education indicates any right to vote or have your say.
Another indicator was income, therefore it is reasonable to assume that the less educated and well off on the whole voted out. I am not sure this forum represents that group of people or how they feel - this part of our society is on its arse and the future is bleak (regardless of Brexit) for them as automation takes the last low level skills they have.
Brexit does nothing to address this issue, no government regardless of political position can fix this, the economy the working poor want back disappeared last century Mrs May can talk all she wants about being "inclusive" but she can not turn back time (neither can Trump).
If I look around my peer group I left school with the ones that did well 35 years down the line are the better educated ones.
We have a massive problem with this element in our society and they are ill informed, easily led and manipulated by *s like Farage Daily Mail Gove Davies etc.
History tells us the second a country has a big problem (war recession) it's the huddled masses that are sacrificed. I have said before these people have no political representation and under the current system (except for a referendum) they will not get it - in short they are *ed yet they think a flag waving xenophobia driven exit from the EU will save them.
Anyone got comments on this?
Nationalist grandstanding.
Nationalist grandstanding.
Just like Brexit.
Some pertinent observations, oldmanmtb.
We have a massive problem with this element in our society and they are ill informed, easily led and manipulated by ****s like Farage Daily Mail Gove Davies etc.
Education is the root of it all, as with so many other problems.
Have a few acquaintances who are currently struggling to understand why Diesal and Electricity are getting expensive (pub conversation) I pointed out the value of the pound and one of them said what the **** has that got to do with it....
I kid you not.
The question of wether or not Wales would receive extra funding from the UK govt in place of the EU was a key issue here, so it's rather important.
Just like Brexit.
Not really, Brexit achieved something, whether it will be good, bad or indifferent remains to be seen - I think probably the latter.
Have a few acquaintances who are currently struggling to understand why Diesal and Electricity are getting expensive
But you can't call voters stupid, remember. Their opinion on economics must be respected.
Nationalist grandstanding.
Not unless Labour and Libdems have had a sudden change of heart.
Seems perfectly fair to me plaid are pointing out another Brexit promise not delivered
Seems perfectly fair to me plaid are pointing out another Brexit promise not delivered
No promises can be delivered until we have agreed an exit deal with the EU. Hence it is premature and has only been put in to attract attention, ergo grandstanding.
I had one of them saying "my kids don't have the opportunity your kids have" - strange as all of us went to the same school (him me and our kids) this is the same bloke who told his kids University was a waste of time (both bright kids) now in there 20s one is a part time waitress and the other a builders labourer (no offence to either job role)- Edukator education is everything..
No promises can be delivered until we have agreed an exit deal with the EU
So you agree we coudn't have known what we were voting for after all?
Brexit does nothing to address this issue, no government regardless of political position can fix this, the economy the working poor want back disappeared last century Mrs May can talk all she wants about being "inclusive" but she can not turn back time (neither can Trump).
And the saddest part is that those people may actually be hit more than most post Brexit. And the populist campaigners getting them to vote leave were fully aware of that which to me puts them as the lowest kind of people.
Education is the root of it all, as with so many other problems.
It really isn't. Genetics are the root of it. I was genetically blessed with high intelligence while others at the same school receiving the same education I received were not.
That intelligence is what has helped me succeed, not the education or the exam results (which were average as I don't revise!)
Edukator education is everything..
Although Kerley's self-aggrandising is snooze-inducing he/she is right: The most valid point in that story is the attitude of the parents, not their education, or lack thereof.
So you agree we coudn't have known what we were voting for after all?
Of course not precisely, only a moron would expect that, as I said the referendum determined the direction of travel, government will plot the course.
Education is more than exams, I was thick as pig **** at school but after 9 years of day release from work got an Engineering Degree - slow learner me... actually it was city and guilds HNC HND Degree route.
It's also about taking on new challenges in work and a career/business environment
Genetics are the root of it. I was genetically blessed with high intelligence while others at the same school receiving the same education I received were not.
Whole-heartedly disagree.
That our education only serves well people with higher intelligence is a problem. Regardless of your IQ, you should be educated to think critically, have empathy, be able to spot bullshit, and be able to understand the very very basics of our world.
Of course parents should be doign this, but we know that not all do. Schools need to teach more than they do now in a way that can be used by more people.
That intelligence is what has helped me succeed, not the education
Exactly my point. The education is not good enough.
Although Kerley's self-aggrandising is snooze-inducing he/she is right:
gee, thanks
Education is more than exams
Damn right. What you learn as regards physics, or computer science, or whatever at university didn't in any way effect how people voted in the Referendum, in my opinion. Spending years studying, and living with, people from many different background, places, and countries, is a life changing experience, that greatly effects you. It is this effect that I think we see in play when comparing education levels with voting patterns. That and the promotion of critical thinking… rather than just soaking up other people's opinions.
Simplifying the education/voting patterns to one of intelligence/voting is very misguided.
It's not about intelligence, it is about experience, outlook, and approach to life.
All this willy waving about education and intelligence is completely pointless, as the work Philip Tetlock has done suggests even experts have only a slightly better than chance record for their predictions.
I remember reading a newspaper article and realising for the first time they were presenting the story in a way that fit their agenda. I was about 20 or so. This is the kind of thing we should be teaching in schools - how to manipulate facts to suit an agenda, and how to spot when it's being done.
All this willy waving about education and intelligence is completely pointless
No, it's very important - you are missing the point somewhat. It's not about making economic predictions - we obviously can't all be trained economists - it's about being a savvy media consumer, and not entertaining prejudice.
mefty, no-one is claiming the experts are good, just that they have better job prospects. But I hope you stick a pin in a medical dictionary rather than waste time going to a doctor when you are not feeling well 🙂
Education [s]is[/s] should be about more than exams
FTFY
What you learn as regards physics, or computer science, or whatever at university didn't in any way effect how people voted in the Referendum, in my opinion
well your opinion is ignorant and wrong, as educational attainment was the single most highly related variable to how people voted in the referendum. As was widely discussed in the press at the time (and again only just recently with a more detailed analysis).
Captain, did you only read my first sentence?
you are missing the point somewhat
No you haven't looked at the research, Tetlock's studies suggest expertise, information, lots of computer power etc etc are of very limited value in making good judgements. As a result all this snobbery about the uneducated making stupid decisions is not backed up by Tetlock's research.
well your opinion is ignorant and wrong, as educational attainment was the single most highly related variable to how people voted in the referendum. As was widely discussed in the press at the time (and again only just recently with a more detailed analysis).
As noted above though, what hasn't been properly studied is whether it is education [u]itself[/u] that was the determining factor, or the fact that 'being educated' means you are more likely to have experience the benefits of multiculturalism, worked with folks from other EU countries, and hence see those benefits more than others who haven't seen the benefits first hand and/or perceive they have been negatively influenced by eg: free movement of labour (taking our jobs, etc.)
I don't have numbers; don't know if anyone does, but what proportion of Doctors are filled by 'foreigners' and what proportion of (for sake of argument) fruit pickers? Because both are roles that cannot readily be filled from within - we don't have enough Doctors and we don't have enough people prepared to do fruit and veg picking. But people who use migrant labour as an example of taking jobs don't complain about migrants taking Doctor's jobs, mainly IMHO because they recognise they are jobs they couldn't do. They complain about fruit pickers in Lincolnshire towns because they are jobs they could do (but in some cases choose not to). Why do we not have the same concern by children of 'educated' families about Doctors coming over and taking jobs? Because as far as i can tell, it's a job lots of people don't want to do either.
No you haven't looked at the research
I'm not talking directly about the kind of thing that Tetlock is writing about. He's talking about making judgements and predictions on the data (or appears to be).
I'm talking about the secondary level - assessing the media and assessing the experts, rather than being one. So in other words, reading Tetlock, not being one of the people he's assessing.
Social determinism innit. And education the way to break it.
Mefty - on form today
Personal favourite?
No promises can be delivered until we have agreed an exit deal with the EU. Hence it is premature and has only been put in to attract attention, ergo grandstanding.
From the man who was telling us that the economic forecasts of what might happen on triggering A50 or leaving the EU have been proven wrong...
Love it.
panem et circenses.
Last thing you need is for the proles to ask questions, keep the debate to soundbites, keep the truth out of it, discredit the experts. Don't whatever you do train kids to think, teach them "facts" but they must never question why.
Keep them thinking tomorrow will be a better day, even if it means going to heaven, and don't forget the big stick to stop them questioning, ie hell.
Keep on churning out the same "facts" eventually they become the truth.
The points above regards those who voted are valid - theres a very strong argument whereby those who have already benefitted most from the status quo are likely to vote to retain it
Also worth considering that since the second biggest variable seems to have been age, theres a clear bias whereby young people are, as we know, far more likely to be degree educated than older cohorts.
so, it goes without saying that younger population will contain more graduates, and therefore impossible to tell whether the variable driving their opinion on EU membership is education or age.
The points above regards those who voted are valid - theres a very strong argument whereby those who have already benefitted most from the status quo are likely to vote to retain it
Which they didn't, ie the old voted out. The young who if you believe the arguments are priced out of housing etc voted to remain. Even though it is the young who should gain because there won't be competition for jobs, housing etc.
Or maybe the young who don't read newspapers such as the Mail are less affected by 40 years of anti EU stories??
From the man who was telling us that the economic forecasts of what might happen on triggering A50 or leaving the EU have been proven wrong..
You give me to much credit, I merely pointed out the soothsayers themselves have said they got it wrong and have revised their forecasts. Project Fear clearly over-egged it, they predicted WWIII if we left and only the poster on here, whose copy of Jane's Defence Review has stuck together pages, believes that.