[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Blimey, if you worried about people answering the basic question of in or out, then debating the nuances of CU v EEA v FTA v WTO is WAYYYY too much to ask

We were asked about what we wanted not how we wanted it. We voted to leave the EU which by defintion means giving up membership of the single market. That is what we voted about.

I'm intrigued by your vision of what a ballot form might have looked like - would have been in A3 paper?

Blimey, if you worried about people answering the basic question of in or out, then debating the nuances of CU v EEA v FTA v WTO is WAYYYY too much to ask

Exactly!

Your gross over-simplification of the question is not helpful at all, tbh.

I'm intrigued by your vision of what a ballot form might have looked like

Perhaps we could've had plan on which to vote? Maybe the question could've been something like 'Should Britain plan to leave the EU?'

You can't suggest that putting a question to people who don't understand the issue is a good idea.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/07/eu-faces-crisis-imf-warns-greek-debts-explosive-path/

Why we would vote on that, what a waste of time.

We votes simply in whether we anted to remain as members of the EU. We voted thanks but no thanks.

There is nothing oversimplifying about the differences between the options. As this thread has shown, they the poorly understood. Why put them to the vote. It would be absurdly complex.

Get over the result. We will still have access to the single market in one form or another, by which stage the EU will probably be folding in on itself anyway. The whole thing is a waste of time.

There is nothing oversimplifying about the differences between the options. As this thread has shown, they the poorly understood

So you're saying it's a complex issue, so still have a vote on it but prented it's simple?

That makes no sense.

Actually, it does, if your aim is to push your personal agenda and you need a mandate for it.

Get over the result.

You keep saying this. It's kind of thing I expect to hear from a despot who has grabbed power and then suppresses all opposition. Do you think the Syrians, Turks, Russians, Africans should get over the abuse of power following an election? I think not. If you don't like something work against it.

Look.... are we getting our bendy bananas back, or not?

It's kind of thing I expect to hear from a despot

Not really, it appears to me that he is saying it is pretty pointless going on about the relatives merits of holding a referendum to resolve the issue. That was the method that was chosen, it is clearly a democratic mechanism, and there was a clear result.

That was the method that was chosen, it is clearly a democratic mechanism, and there was a clear result.

The result of the vote was clear, but what would subsequently happen was far from clear, and still isn't. If I asked you to jump off a lip on your bike, what was over the lip would form a key part of your decision process, wouldn't it? You wouldn't be in a position to make a judgement if you didn't know.

So whilst in simple lexical terms it was a simple question, the process of actually governing the country is far from it. According to some, the most complex thing the country has undertaken since the war. So why should it all be handled at the whim of a PM?

There's the result of the ballot, which was very simple; and then result of the decision, which is massively complex. The latter is what we are concerned with now and what is not being handled well imo. It's also the thing that public debate can influence.

Despot - not respecting the result
Democrat - respecting the result
Desperate - pretending you are 2 but behaving like 1

There's a lot of desperation on display

The whim of the PM is a nice tag line but about as accurate as jambas reasons for leaving

Well done!!

Looks like May's desperate toadying up to Trump- giving us a glimpse of what Brexit Britain will look like

and her 'deal or no deal' hard brexit stance are having an effect North of the border

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15076307.Support_for_independence_surges_following_May_s__hard__Brexit_vow/

Little Britain here we come

The whim of the PM is a nice tag line but about as accurate as jambas reasons for leaving

Well done!!

Go on...?

Why are you being evasive about the bananas?

stick your straight bananas its the imperial measurements I cant wait for

So kimbers how does support for independence reconcile with giving up monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels - that is intellectually dishonest and little more than posturing. The Scots are not stupid and woild not fall for that (with a few exceptions of course)

Here you go pall, I swap you devolved power for subjegation to German interests - deal or no deal?

Depends on the consequences of those options, doesn't it THM?

The result of the vote was clear, but what would subsequently happen was far from clear

But we all knew that [b]before[/b] we voted didn't we?

If I asked you to jump off a lip on your bike, what was over the lip would form a key part of your decision process, wouldn't it? You wouldn't be in a position to make a judgement if you didn't know.

I have reconciled my self to us leaving and it IMO is going to be a colossal disaster. Will set the country back years.

[b]Don't tell him your name Kimbers![/b]

Nope, despot means abusing power however you got that power.

Yes and we are having massive abuses right now aren't we?!?

What happened to perspective?

What we are seeing - is desperation in full flow. Rather a sad sight.

But we all knew that before we voted didn't we?

No, I think the way we voted was coloured by our own impressions of what would happen, which were in turn decided by our own sentiments. So if you're pro-EU, you tend to listen to the remainers warning of economic problems; if yo're anti-EU you listen to those telling you Britain will be great again.

But we all took different concepts of post-Brexit Britain into the voting booth, so we were all in essence voting for different things. Leavers were voting to make Britain great again (who wouldn't vote for that?); remainers were voting to keep economic and social ties with neighbours (again, not at all unreasonable).

Do you understand my point? It's lke voting to be rich. Of course we'd tick yes, but the question is how do we actually do that?

I'm with you Pigface. I'm now just going to take it as a bonus if in 5 years not time we're not bartering with chickens, and fighting to the death in the streets, using the splintered bones of the dead as weapons, over the last remaining Aldi bratwurst in the country.

One thing I know for sure. Just like the banking crisis, the people who are ushering in this disaster will walk away once again unscathed from the misery and chaos they are in the process of creating

Well if we voted "blind" then more fool us.

We, the remainders, failed to get our message to resonate with the majority of voters. We lost, fair and square. We did a bad job, the milk has been spilt. You can't go back and do it again, hoping of a better saucer.

The referendum set the direction of travel, it now up to the government to plot the course. That is how our system works.

teamhurtmore - Member
So kimbers how does support for independence reconcile with giving up monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels - that is intellectually dishonest and little more than posturing. The Scots are not stupid and woild not fall for that (with a few exceptions of course)

Here you go pall, I swap you devolved power for subjegation to German interests - deal or no deal?

thm as you well know referenda are all about heart not head

Sturgeon has handled it all quite poorly but that doesnt really matter because its looking like a choice between fealty to German interests or fealty to people like Trump

Everytime a millionare brexiter like IDS, Rees-Mogg, Farage etc get up and start frothing on about 'The Will of The People'

another Scott thinks "f-k you ya ignorant sassenachs, ye dunney speak for me"... or something to that effect

Well if we voted "blind" then more fool us.

Indeed.

We did a bad job, the milk has been spilt. You can't go back and do it again, hoping of a better saucer.

That's not what I'm suggesting.

it now up to the government to plot the course

And should the government involve the country or parliament in this, or do it all themselves?

another Scott thinks "f-k you ya ignorant sassenachs, ye dunney speak for me"... or something to that effect

He doesn't speak for me or the other 48% either. Problem is that most of the rest of us don't have a convenient nationalist label to get behind. Not any fairer is it?

May has SAID she wants a Britain that will work for everyone post-Brexit, but let's face it that's ridiculously vague, and it's apparently up to her what she thinks will work for us, and up to her to decide whether or not it is working afterwards.

May does NOT speak for me, not in the least.

How many remainers are on the brexit team?

You didn't vote blind, you voted on the basis of lies and propaganda.

I watched the "debate" from afar, read this thread and noted how the leave campaign resembled propaganda used by fascists of various colours. With some remarkable similarities in the images used (you'll find one earlier in the thread).

The British population has been encourages to hate immigrants in the same way as people have been encouraged to hate Jews, blacks, Catholics, Muslims, different facial features, communists... .

I hate hate and hope I never "get over it" or consider it "crying over spilt milk.

[i]We, the remainders, failed to get our message to resonate with the majority of voters. We lost, fair and square. We did a bad job, the milk has been spilt. You can't go back and do it again, hoping of a better saucer. [/I]

Yep, but that doesn't mean that we've to give the 'winners' an easy time - life doesn't work like that. And after they f it up, we'll ALL be up s creek...

Still no answer from you Brexiters on WTO then eh?

As I said kimbea, the majority of Scots are far too canny to fall for what Sturgeon is now [s]hidng[/s] calling for...

So in molword, do we have a referendum each quarter based on updates in the negotiation process. What exactly do you want - apart from us not leaving the EU?

I voted remain for good reason. Speak for yourself/others Edukator...as you say from afar.

We should move beyond winners and work (1) to reduce uncertainty and (2) accelerate the process towards a solution. Fannying around achieves nothing, just makes matters worse.

hats of to TM, she at least IS getting on with it, even with the myriad of mini diversions along the way. Someone has some balls...

I hate hate

No, you hate leavers & remainers who aren't "remain enough" for you. 'Hate' is just a term of abuse you apply to those people to express your hatred of them. Along with 'racist' and 'stupid'.

All the name calling in this debate came from Remainers. In a close vote it pushed enough people out of the Remain camp to force us out of the EU IMHO.

I didn't have a vote. I didn't miss the irony of the fact that those that had made the most of the mobility the EU has allowed lost their vote in the EU referendum. Cchris has never lost his French voting rights.

Theresa May threads get closed instantly on this forum so I can't say what I think of her. However, don't forget she didn't get voted into her current position. She is a caretaker PM and has no validity IMO. She should call a general election if she wants to lead the government.

Fannying around achieves nothing, just makes matters worse.

You keep saying this. Personally if I'm being driven unwillingly towards a cliff, I'd rather it was slowly so that I might be able to change the driver's mind.

I haven't accused anyone of being stupid. In terms of the ethics of the campaigns I suggest that leave had the monopoly of hate and "racism":

[img] [/img]

Edit; I've used xenophobic to describe the Brexit campaign but that poster is plain racist given the people and conflict it portrays.

It just shows what a crap job we did then doesn't it

And now let's blame others....

didn't have a vote. I didn't miss the irony of the fact that those that had made the most of the mobility the EU has allowed lost their vote in the EU referendum.

Only if they hadn't been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years.

The referendum set the direction of travel, it now up to the government to plot the course. That is how our system works.

This is true, but if your a Tory hater or passionate remainer, "every" course the government takes will be wrong !!

Or less than 20% of their lives.

She [May] is a caretaker PM and has no validity IMO. She should call a general election if she wants to lead the government.

As much as I dislike her,

1) In the UK we elect the party*, not the leader, as you well know, and
2) Thanks to the FTPA, she couldn't call an election unless she either instructed her own part to vote "no confidence" in itself, or somehow cajoled the shambolic "opposition" into getting an early election motion passed with >2/3rds of the vote.

So, we're stuck with her.

*well, 25% of us did...

I haven't accused anyone of being stupid. In terms of the ethics of the campaigns I suggest that leave had the monopoly of hate and "racism":

Well go on then. Leavers routinely called Brexiters and Remainers they didn't consider enthusiastic enough 'racist', 'stupid'.

What was the equivalent name that Brexiters employed as a term of abuse? There isn't one is there? *All* of the abuse was one way.

"Unpatriotic", "whingers", "whiners" and many more, outofbreath.

*All* of the abuse was one way.

So in molword, do we have a referendum each quarter based on updates in the negotiation process. What exactly do you want - apart from us not leaving the EU?

Parliamet creates a deal, where we can submit our views to our representatives, then a second referendum on the ultimate deal. Or even parts of it.