Employment is little changed QoQ but better YoY
Unemployment better on both counts
Nominal wages rising above inflation
Bloody Tor........ 😉
2. Greater restrictions for trade in goo and services - including substantial non-tariff barriers
Do we import much goo? 🙂
Just caught up on the last couple of days over lunch. So many things I wanted to pick up on but the conversation's moved on, so I'll not bother with them all. There's a couple that jump out though:
Now I will not deny getting a French passport is easier than her getting a UK one, AFAIK it's automatic as she is French and we where married in France. UK has more detailed rules and form filling as a responce to many "arranged marriages" and a wish to combat that.
Jamba, how does your wife feel about all this? Is she happy that she might not be able to live in her country of choice any longer as a direct result of her husband's actions?
No it's the British people. The governments position was to remain. The public disagreed. They are responsible but I accept that individual responsibility is an unpopular concept these days
This is simply spin. It's the Government's fault for putting the single biggest and most complex decision our country's ever made, one with global ramifications, into the hands of the general public. I've said this before; it's a public who, as a vast majority (ie, an actual majority rather than 48:52) are ill-equipped to make such a decision.
Not that I'm saying we're / they're stupid (though almost half must be below average intelligence by definition), but even the relatively more intelligent people aren't necessarily going to know anything about International economics, trade deals, political wranglings and so forth that must all be considered in order to come to the right decision. For all that I have strong feelings on the matter, making that decision is certainly above my pay grade.
This is why we have politicians to represent us. People who (at least in theory) have a better insight and greater experience and therefore [i]are[/i] equipped to be making those decisions on our behalf for the benefit of the country as a whole. That's the very definition of Democracy.
Instead, we're looking at an Etch-a-Sketch undoing of everything anyone in politics has negotiated for for my entire lifetime, based on what's tantamount to a coin flip.
I could be wrong. Brexit could just be the best thing that ever happens to us. I sincerely hope that if and when we do go ahead with it I'm proved wrong, but I have grave doubts that that will be the case. Either way though, personal politics aside surely anyone with half a clue whether Remainer or Leaver, surely it's as plain as the nose on your face that this is an absolutely insane [b]reason[/b] for ploughing on ahead regardless with Brexit?
Doesn't Morris dancing celebrate / commemorate moorish pirates / slaves raiding the south coast of England and making off with slaves and booty?
according to the article on the radio i heard, it was seasonal labourers who needed to supplement their income in the winter by begging / street busking. However these activities were illegal hence they used to black up as a disguise.
The pro blacker-uppers therefore contend that it was never racially motivated / the antis say that it risks being seen in that way / causing offence so they can continue the tradition of 'disguise' by using coloured face paint now (which wouldn't have been available in the 1600's / wasn't as cheap as chimney soot)
Why Morris then? The explanation I had was that it was a corruption of Moorish.
chewkw you do understand that Ireland being part of the EU will only be able to give us the same deal as we get from the rest of the EU. This being one of the prime points of the EU is that everyone is equal within it and no two countries can make a special deal. One of the reasons why people keep saying we have to get out..
We can do anything we want on our side and let in workers etc to the UK but they do not have the same luxury (or to the same extent as they have as well as us currently do have immigration controls). When we finally leave there will have to be a re-establishment of the border just as there will be at the channel tunnel etc.
This is simply spin.
No its not, it's what happened.
It's the Government's fault for putting the single biggest and most complex decision our country's ever made, one with global ramifications, into the hands of the general public. I've said this before; it's a public who, as a vast majority (ie, an actual majority rather than 48:52) are ill-equipped to make such a decision.
Neither the biggest not the most complex, but I get/accept the underlying point.
People are ill-equippped but that doesn't/shouldn't stop them playing an active part in the process. We are always making decisions based on imperfect information every day of our lives. Smart people work hard to reduce the gap in the knowledge, others wing it.
Not that I'm saying we're / they're stupid (though almost half must be below average intelligence by definition), but even the relatively more intelligent people aren't necessarily going to know anything about International economics, trade deals, political wranglings and so forth that must all be considered in order to come to the right decision. For all that I have strong feelings on the matter, making that decision is certainly above my pay grade.
As above, I appreciate that individual responsibility is a lost concept these days and we like to rely on the state or someone else, but that's a sad excuse*. There is plenty of material available to help understand the issues - but people cant be arsed. Tough, live with the consequences then.
This is why we have politicians to represent us. People who (at least in theory) have a better insight and greater experience and therefore are equipped to be making those decisions on our behalf for the benefit of the country as a whole. That's the very definition of Democracy.
No its the definition of representative government. I do, hv, have some sympathy with this idea - very much the Ken Clarke school - but having listened to many of our representatives over the past few months I doubt than many of them are well equipped either.
But imagine for one moment, if the gov had done the opposite and said. This is too important for you the hoi-polloi. We the Westminster elite are going to tell you, the great unwashed, what is good for you and you will bloody well like it. Either that or lump it. Now get back in your boxes and STFU.
*Ernie's poster girl warned us all about this many years ago but was misunderstood. Shame, on that at least, she was correct.
<mod>
Guys, this thread is already mahoosive enough without random tangents. There's potential merit in discussing whether morris dancers eating marmalade is racist, but do you want to start another thread if so?
Ta.
</mod>
tangentist.
This is too important for you the hoi-polloi. We the Westminster elite are going to tell you, the great unwashed, what is good for you and you will bloody well like it. Either that or lump it. Now get back in your boxes and STFU.
Er… isn't it the "Westminster elite" taking decisions, for us, that is exactly what is happening? I don't see our new PM putting her new manifesto for Britain's future to the vote, do you?
did you hear the speech yesterday?
The government is not executing a mandate that they advised against but the public voted for. Yesterday, they clarified a few issues for the hard of thinking and then explained their approach (a bespoke deal) and where that sat at the start of the negotiations (soft FTA). The rest is not subject to W'minster but the negotiations between us and 27 others.
Interestingly IMO - the potential hardliners eg, us (!) and Barnier seem closer to Frau Compromise leaving only a few (our Dutch mate, the Maltese and idiots like Farage) at the lose:lose end. The grown ups will make this work in the end, albeit at a cost to us. We just have to keep the idiots out of harms way. Unfortunately, they are a bit too central at the moment, but the boss seemed strong enough at the moment to keep them vaguely under control.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/17/leave-remain-theresa-may-single-market-brexit-liberal-democrats ]About the only sensible comment you'll hear out of a British politician on the subject. And it's a lib dem [/url] 😯
It'all be worth the Labour Party having a read, as it's where a massive wedge of their former voters will be heading
Listening to (sad) HoC yesterday and today, it stuck me how, as someone who wants Scotland to stay in the UK and votes LibDem, it is only really the SNP members and a handful of Tory MPs asking pertinent questions on this issue in parliament. The two UK wide opposition parties are totally missing in action (one thanks to paucity of numbers, the other thanks to the fact it is eating itself). We really need a way to kick our MPs up the arse…
But Dan "the han" Hannan said no one was talking about threatening our place in the single market - so pretty close to saying stay in single market then.
Hang on a minute though, when was that quote from?
Is someone deliberately misrepresenting the facts by pretending that he was talking during referendum campaign I wonder?
More #fakenews from the remainders
The rest is not subject to W'minster but the negotiations between us and 27 others.
The deal we get is down to all countries.
The deal we try to get is down to "us".
Unfortunately, here, "us" means a handful of "elites" on the right of the Tory party… not Westmister as a whole, and certainly not we plebs.
People are ill-equippped but that doesn't/shouldn't stop them playing an active part in the process.
Playing an active part, sure. People vote for their representatives, government canvas public opinion, people voice their concerns, parliament make final decisions. That's us taking a part.
But making the final decision via mod rule? Barking.
As above, I appreciate that individual responsibility is a lost concept these days and we like to rely on the state or someone else, but that's a sad excuse*. There is plenty of material available to help understand the issues - but people cant be arsed. Tough, live with the consequences then.
As ever, I don't think it's that simple. I mean, yes, I'd agree that there will be a large number of people for whom that's true (though we'd lose a lot of the apathetic in those who didn't bother to even vote). But I'll guess there will be considerably more who believed they already had the facts. How many people gave a second thought to the single market or any of the other things we may or may not end up keeping? I didn't, never crossed my mind that it was something I should learn about (I've learned a lot about it all from this very thread, shame no-one had this discussion a year earlier).
I mean, it wasn't a complex question, it was "should we leave? [yes] [no]" - a simple question has a simple answer, right? People believe whatever they trust is correct, which is whoever is largely in line with what they want to believe, whether that's "experts" trying to predict what will happen or that nice man on the telly with his bus.
Because thinking about it: all the vox pops we've had with "the man in the street" after the event, asking people why they voted - how many people cited more than one reason? I've read so many comments from people who have asked family and been told things like "well more money for the NHS is good, right?"
having listened to many of our representatives over the past few months I doubt than many of them are well equipped either.
Well, I'm inclined to agree, but that's a whole other argument.
But imagine for one moment, if the gov had done the opposite and said. This is too important for you the hoi-polloi. We the Westminster elite are going to tell you, the great unwashed, what is good for you and you will bloody well like it. Either that or lump it. Now get back in your boxes and STFU.
How is that different to any other policy change or law amendment ever? Snooper's Charter, anyone? I don't remember being consulted about that.
tangentist.
Very good. (-:
Kelvin - aren't you being a bit harsh on your team? As a remainer I am very sympathetic to Farron's views even though I think that his rejection of the result and proposals yesterday were disingenuous. His comments on democracy was an understandable melodrama and rather amusing too! But at least you can understand where the LDs are coming from
Labour are just sad to watch - agreed
The SNP talking shite, albeit understandably given their unique position.
But making the final decision via mod rule? Barking.
I thought we agreed that you lot do quite a good job!!
Let's be fair to Hannon, he has always said we should leave the Single Market.
He was simply pointing out that a referendum to leave the EU is not a vote to leave the Single Market.
Here is his well reasoned argument as to why we should be outside the Single Market:
I disagree with him strongly, but on this issue he has been consistent.
But I'll guess there will be considerably more who believed they already had the facts.
True and who are we to stop them having those views?
How many people gave a second thought to the single market or any of the other things we may or may not end up keeping? I didn't, never crossed my mind that it was something I should learn about (I've learned a lot about it all from this very thread, shame no-one had this discussion a year earlier).
As above, it people dont take the time to understand then that is their look out.
This whole issue is about the most appropriate way to trade with one of the world's most important economic zones and attracting investment into the UK. Membership or access to the single market is the core of the argument. Now I admit that leavers would have had no chance if they played that game, so they invented 5 lies instead and did a good job at shifting the argument to a false playing field.
I mean, it wasn't a complex question, it was "should we leave? [yes] [no]" - a simple question has a simple answer, right?
True. The difficult and technical bit is the next stage. I am happy to delegate that to the experts.
People believe whatever they trust is correct, which is whoever is largely in line with what they want to believe, whether that's "experts" trying to predict what will happen or that nice man on the telly with his bus.
True - individual responsibility again. There are members of the medical community on here who continue to insist that their pensions are safe and reject the word of those who know better. More fool them. They have been warned.
Just brilliant - Boris is now channelling WW2 war movies. Unfortunately what plays well to the average DM reading racist xenophobic half-witted Brexiteer probably won't go down so well with the people we now need to negotiate with. Luckily Boris doesn't hold one of the key positions in our government! Oh wait...
Looking at Brexit from a non partisan angle. When negotating with the EU with regards to things like "any deal must be lesser than EU memebership", that I'm seeing on the news.. Is that actually going to be the case?
If the UK turn round and says right, no deal. See ye. Things then develop into negotiating on a country by country basis. The question then becomes, will the EU stand together? Will the Germans forgo punting cars into the UK, true they can just pay the tariffs, but what's the likely hood of that lasting forever? Soon as the Germans do a deal, basically gives the rest of the countries in the EU the green light to negotiate individually?
I thought we agreed that you lot do quite a good job!!
No we didn't, we have a mod on this thread who warned us not to go off on tangents and immediately goes onto the relative merits of holding a referendum which we moved on from weeks ago.
There is only one thing for it, Cougar, you've got to fall on your sword, sayonara.
Just brilliant - Boris is now channelling WW2 war movies.
But apparently some version of WW2 that didn't involve the Nazis. What a fool.
But apparently some version of WW2 that didn't involve the Nazis. What a fool.
Don't mention the war! It's been mentioned once, but I think we got away with it...
Ya, apparently GBP £ has bounced back again ...
Really... where...?
[img] 
[/img]
(Sauce: [url= http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=1Y ]Xe.com[/url]
Oh yeah, so it has. For a minute there I thought we might be in trouble... 🙄
In the meantime in the BBC news today UK unemployment falls to 1.6 million
You mean the unemployment rate that was already near the ten year low and falling before we had the Brexit vote?
[img] 
[/img]
(Sauce: [url= https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms ]ONS[/url])
Amazing that we can have such record lows of unemployment when all those foreigners are nicking our jobs eh? Clearly something had to be done!
This is why we have politicians to represent us. People who (at least in theory) have a better insight and greater experience and therefore are equipped to be making those decisions on our behalf for the benefit of the country as a whole. [b]That's the very definition of Democracy.[/b]
Er, no.... no it isn't - look at the etymology of the word.
No, it doesn't.Things then develop into negotiating on a country by country basis.
There is only one thing for it, Cougar, you've got to fall on your sword, sayonara.
Is that something with fish?
Been in meetings all day,check the news, see Johnson is managing to piss off the Europeans, Gove calling people offended snowflakes
Yup brexishambles continuing to divide the country a day after Theresa may told us all to stop name calling.
She really has very little control of her party
Sad times for the country
Cougar my wife's first and second choice countries of residence are neither France nor UK. We both have no doubt we could live freely in either France or UK if we wished on our current passports.
@molgrips we've discussed the Norwegian / Swiss models before. Norway held a referendum and result was do not join the EEC, however the government signed up to pretty much everything anyway. Terrible, worst of all worlds. Swiss have an EEA agreement which suits them as they are such a big exporter (as is Norway). The Swiss have to accept freedom of movement too despite 2014 Referendum against it. As we are a major importer paying a large fee and accepting freedom of movement which is heavily biased to immigration into the UK makes no sense to me at all. We can accept all the immigrants we want via a visa system.
Glad someone else pointed out the Hannan Fake News, I could not be bothered.
Is that something with fish?
No Japanese War Films, get with the zeitgeist.
Things then develop into negotiating on a country by country basis. The question then becomes, will the EU stand together?
I presume you didn't follow the Canada/EU deal being made?
Or any of the other trade deals the EU have stuck (or failed to strike) with the rest of the world?
I think you'll find a possible answer there.
Been in meetings all day, pops into the news to check, see Johnson is managing to piss off the Europeans, Gove calling purple offended snowflakes
Yup brexishambles continuing to divide the country a day after Theresa may told us all to stop name calling.
She really has very little control of her party
Sad times for the country
Kimbers you seem to be losing the plot.
It was May the Magnificent yesterday, Tories coudn't be more united. They could be further ahead in the polls though and I think that's the way it's going. We will see what the by-elections bring.
Boris was absolutely correct (Gove too), it's The Great Escape. If the snowflakes can't stand a joke about the war they should take it up with Basil Fawlty.
We both have no doubt we could live freely in either France or UK if we wished on our current passports.
No doubt. But less well off people may not have that luxury. Still. F*** 'em, eh?
People on the TV and on this forum keep banging on about the FACT BMW will need an agreement to keep selling cars here? BMW can and will add 10% without batting an eyelid as most folks Buy a BMW as a social statement and will stand a 10% increase in their monthly lease cost. Talked to a KTM (German motorcycles) bloke the other day and he just said people will pay 10% more...
Supply and demand always ignored by politicians who think they are economists... let's not even talk about monopolys like Microsoft who can hike prices as they see fit. We at the the wrong end of the supply chain - what's going to happen when we give Trump a trade deal - shit loads of crap cheap food that will swamp our agricultural businesses and other food suppliers. None of this is complex? From an economic standpoint we are at the en of the line and we only survive by buying cheap stuff and selling limited high end service (which are now starting to move) and now we shut the doors to young immigrants who fuel the economy by paying tax and providing labour?
These are not political views they are fiscal reality based upon an economy that on the whole simply consumes. Ordinary people will see an increase in fuel (all types) and food that far outpaces any pay rise.
@kelvin the EU / Canada deal took so long as the EU is fundamentally protectionist (it prefers membership expanion over trade deals) and dysfunctional in the fashion of 27 headless chickens. Personally that's why I wouldn't even bother, focus the time and energy on the global growth markets.
It was interesting today that Jumker's speech today had other items higjer up the agenda than Brexit. He is quite right there have a world of other sh.t to deal with like border control/impending Mediterranean influx coming as the weather improves and the eurozone debt crises. Those things really could destroy the EU whereas as Brexit is a relatively minor headache.
DrJ May has already said everyone is welcome to stay. It's the EU being grade A arseholes and playing politics with people's lives. It would have been trivial for the EU to say the same.
DrJ May has already said everyone is welcome to stay. It's the EU being grade A arseholes and playing politics with people's lives. It would have been trivial for the EU to say the same.
Source?
(Yes, of course I'm joking)
(it prefers membership expanion over trade deals)
You say that like it's a bad thing (this is getting repetitious and boring) What do you think the EU is supposed to be doing and what has UK benefitted from when EU has done this?
It was May the Magnificent yesterday
Given you both seem to share the same disregard for cold reality I'm not surprised you thought it was great. All you seem to want is cheering and hurraying, and that's what you got.
May has already said everyone is welcome to stay. It's the EU being grade A arseholes and playing politics with people's lives.
Has she, because here she is in Novemeber saying she was quite right [b]not[/b] to make that promise, because it let her play politics with the EU:
[url= http://news.sky.com/story/pm-i-was-right-to-hold-out-on-letting-eu-citizens-stay-in-uk-after-brexit-10677906 ]PM: I was right to hold out on letting EU citizens stay in UK after Brexit
The Prime Minister hits back at European leaders saying she was right to use EU citizens living in the UK as bargaining chips[/url] -- Sky News, Nov 2016
Jambalaya has simply got to be trolling now, and probably from day one. Congrats it's one hell of a troll.
