its not mutually exclusive so they can be reducing the expected number and also still be at a significant scale - lets say its only a tenth of their workforce I think its reasonable to call that a significant scale and what they said originally , as I know accuracy is important to you and you would not like to be seen as attempting to BS any one

UBS currently employs around 5,000 people in London. Back in January, chairman Axel Weber said that about a fifth of those jobs [b]could[/b] be at risk of having to move.

Its a strange world when you celebrate one bank only losing about a tenth as some sort of victory for your position/Brexit.

in terms of making your argument (well or badly) I think you sometimes (and please take this as constructive criticism, I don’t mean it to be derogatory, although I see there is a risk) come across as a bit of a smart alec, a barrack room lawyer as my father would have said. That said your google skills are better than mine.

My father was a military man and therefore I know the importance of fighting on the ground of your choosing. The beauty of internet political discussions is you have that ability to not engage. No one knows whether you have have acquiesced or simply not been reading the thread. I simply choose ground where I have some knowledge and therefore when googling I know exactly what I am looking for.

Being a bit ruminative, I have huge respect for Ernie Lynch who sadly no longer seems to post. Our politics on the whole were very different, albeit he would probably be cheering me on this thread, but we could rehearse our arguments without rancour. He ducked and dived, and no doubt he would accuse me of doing the same. But we could agree to disagree and that makes discussions much more interesting.

But the real reason I respect Ernie was that he was involved in real politics on the ground, he is not the only one, I seem to remember MikeTually and Allthegear actually standing for election. Whether I agree with their politics, which I don't, that is far more commendable than posting your arguments on the internet.

Fair enough. You come across as more of a keyboard warrior, but we probably haven’t met.

That's recently found out what a thesaurus is! 😆

I know the importance of fighting on the ground of your choosing.

Fair enough. You come across as more of a keyboard warrior, but we probably haven’t met.

We have both posted on a similar number of threads since the hack, I fear we are both neophytes (that's for seosamh) when it comes to keyboard warriorship.

I just view it as talking shit on the internet

Ah, but there is shit that comes out of your arse and shit that you look at in the bowl.

😆 @ seosamh

I am just supremely knowledgeable on a wide array of areas especially news channels i dont watch 😈

EDIT @ mefty had to google the word as well --- well played

I am just supremely knowledgeable on a wide array of areas especially news channels i dont watch

Next we'll be expected to believe jamba and thm are high falutin executive types that are influential in the halls of business and power! 😆

IGM. That’s an odd comment to target at mefty given (1) your normal desire for sensible discourse and (2) the fact that mefty’s comments are factual, reasonable and presented articulately. Oh, hang on, I get it know. 😉

Keep ‘em coming mefty. This barren desert is in desperate need 😉

So some progress today...
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-the-papers-41977509
Maybe a vote on the deal (would rule out any no deal taking my ball home scenario - possibly) but pro EU tories still prepared to vote against the boss.

The Guardian reports that Tory rebels are "not convinced" by what it calls a "U-turn" by the government in offering the vote, with former Attorney General Dominic Grieve saying a verbal assurance was not enough. Pro-European backbencher Anna Soubry told the newspaper she and some of her colleagues were still willing to go against the government as Mr Davis' announcement gave them no say on a "no deal" scenario.

Davies - a man who always does too little too late

practical Conservatives

This comment I made was referring to our government having ruled out (for party reasons) a relationship with Europe in a form based on one that either Norway or Switzerland have… not the committee asking questions over how the border is handled by those two states.

Anyway… the bluff of Conservative "rebels" has now been called… no chance to moderate the government's approach now… [s]bad [/s]May's deal, no deal, or Corbyn as PM, is the choice in front of them, and at the last minute… choose your form of chaos… I honestly feel for them.

[b]= :87([/b]

THM, Mefty - sorry if that came across the wrong way, I don’t object to what Mefty posts at all. I just find the habit of taking a particular stance and then running away when robustly and accurately challenged a little tedious. Oh I know, glass houses and all.
Let me be clear, there is nothing bad about being wrong, and Mefty please do not let me stop you taking these marginal stands - that is how debate works, how we test the edges. But come on, argue well, concede when you have to, but don’t just run away when it goes in a direction you don’t like.
If you find that the beauty of an Internet forum is that you can just go quiet, what does that say about the real world - there’s nothing at stake on here, what do your do in the real world when an argument is going wrong?
On here is not real I agree (though it is slightly less Throught the Looking Glass that talking to my local MP), but it is a great place to test arguments that you can use in the real world. Don’t just make it about point scoring.
And yes that goes for everyone else too. Including me.

Morning IGM!

Kelvin I assumed that you were mixing the issues up ;-). But even saying that, it is correct that the Gov does not simply accept an off-the-shelf FTA solution as none of the existing ones suit our needs

I don’t know what happened to the text of the Ctte last night as could only find the broadcast on the train and didn’t have headphones. So still to read if there are any bright ideas

I’m on the road today. Got it get my posts in early.

THM, what do you think happens if no deal exists which will satisfy all sides?

WTO

Which is why I do not expect it to happen. Too much to lose on both sides

Same with a silly vote. Vote down deal and get WTO. Great choice?!?

Hence the need to get on with negotiating a proper deal ASAP. Best chance looks like Dec/Jan

What does "WTO" have to do with NI border?

Misunderstood ?

Will return later today

Thm, your caricature becomes more cartoon like every day.

THM - in the Venn diagram of deal WTO lies in the does not satisfy all sides. You’re going to have to be more imaginative.

Surely the time line is this

Parliament gets to vote on the "deal". It's such a bad deal that it gets rejected by parliament

We then face the true reality of no deal

Parliament in chaos. An election is called. Labour campaign on a mandate of another referendum to reverse the decision to leave. Tories decimated, labour triumphant.

Remain wins the new referendum massively. The whole thing is scrapped.

THM and Jamba's heads explode. We all laugh.

Nah, the MPs will roll over like good doggies.

It's been demonstrated many times that they will bluster and whine, but their strong stances soon disappear when the Whips threaten their jobs (or casually flick through The Big Book of Naughty Members).

Chief whip is an ardent remainder BTW.

BoardinBob - Member

😆

Chief whip is an ardent remainder BTW.

Yep, but his job description is making sure MPs vote with the government. You wouldn't take that job in the middle of Brexit vote chaos without the firm intention of doing just that.

Yep, but his job description is making sure MPs vote with the government.

The ultimate mockery of democracy imo.

Every politicians first job is looking after number 1. Plus I watched House of Cards not that long ago 🙂

It's only marginally better than the Henry VIII legislation outcome - rubber stamp this or hard Brexit.

That General Election cannot come soon enough. Even if Corbyn and McDonnell are both Brexiteers, I'd far rather have Starmer negotiating on our behalf.

rubber stamp this or hard Brexit.

smells like a crisis in the making to me, panic will set in at some point.

teamhurtmore - Member
WTO

Which is why I do not expect it to happen. Too much to lose on both sides

Same with a silly vote. Vote down deal and get WTO. Great choice?!?

Seems STW isn't the only home of the petulant regretful leaver...

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/12/if-prominent-remainers-apologise-to-angry-leavers-brexit-can-still-be-avoided?CMP=fb_gu ]If prominent remainers apologise to angry leavers, Brexit can still be avoided[/url]

I voted leave for very good reasons, but now think we cannot get a good Brexit deal. But blaming me is counter-productive; intemperate articles from the liberal political establishment only serve to increase my bloody-mindedness.

Oh, and THM, when you threw your toys out of the pram the other night, you forgot to explain the connection between you working on staff members' visas and Brexit.

THM and Jamba's heads explode. We all laugh.

What a weird comment on all levels

well, if it's any comfort, i find your response to that quite odd too. 😉

As comforting as a bed of nails

Remain wins the new referendum massively. The whole thing is scrapped.

Fantasy. Narrow win either way, resulting in years of chaos in both political parties, and the country at large. There is no clean outcome ahead for the UK. Different flavours of chaos. Choose your preferred chaos.

May's new strong line about Russia interfering in the democracy of other countries is interesting.

Yeah it is. Seems an odd time to potentially anger Trump.

And I'm surprised she'd want to bring to much focus on it herself, given the speculated links between Russia and the Brexit vote.

Perhaps it is part of undermining Boris, given his reported lying about meeting "The Professor" involved in the Trump/Russia ties:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-joseph-mifsud_uk_5a081ba6e4b01d21c83ef6b3

kelvin - Member
May's new strong line about Russia interfering in the democracy of other countries is interesting.

Deflect, deflect, deflect!!!!

May accusing russia of what Johnson has been doing with impunity. She named the lying, story inventing ex-Etonian foreign secretary. Hyocrisy.

Commons on good form today… when we need an emergency government, can someone make sure Ken Clarke has a role? Ta.

A well put piece in the Guardian today said Britain has a choice... destroy its democracy to protect its economy, or destroy its economy to protect its democracy

Brilliant!

Still.... the man who’s monumental arrogance and lack of judgement delivered this madness has just bought himself a 2 million quid third home in Cornwall, which is nice

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/brexiter-strangely-quiet-about-voting-for-obvious-****s-20171114139077 ]Another interesting take on it[/url]

Bill Cash should hang his head in shame, invoking armistice and remembrance to support his petty political ends. Shame on him.

I hope the less dictated members are not put off by the idea of line by line scrutiny nor by the 000s of amendments. Time to prove their worth. And if their bored they could also get a bit sweaty about the date of leaving. That could pass a couple of hours and it's not as though the answer is obvious.

Haven't seen any coverage But I assume that the chamber is packed given the importance of the scrutiny required.

Bill Cash should hang his head in shame, invoking armistice and remembrance to support his petty political ends. Shame on him.

The same thing happened here on Sunday by a gagger. Shocking, I agree.

Trust that’s not the Independent piece i referenced THM.
Very trolly headline but the substance had some validity. Unlike Cash

Yeah it is. Seems an odd time to potentially anger Trump.

And I'm surprised she'd want to bring to much focus on it herself, given the speculated links between Russia and the Brexit vote.

I expect she’s preparing to sign the cheque and walk ...

No 😉 one of the posse!!

But would not surprise me as the Indy and the Guardian compete daily for the silliest most sensational headline and then lose out to Gideons Gobshite instead!!!

So when I get home will I be seeing a packed chamber on the tele?

Turned it on. - looks like almost 50. Good for them.

Might go back to master chef or the Wendy instead though.

Still.... the man who’s monumental arrogance and lack of judgement delivered this madness has just bought himself a 2 million quid third home in Cornwall, which is nice

Think of he devaluation and the savings he's made on the back of it, onshoring some of the trust fund.

do keep us updated on what you are doing as I am, and I am sure I speak for the forum, on the edge of my seat waiting for your next tweet/update

I just had some toast after buying a frame ...oh this is as exciting as it is relevant

Chief whip is an ardent remainder BTW.

He’s an ardent pud puller who will do anything that leads to greater power. My local MP. Useless. Saying that, his secretary is good at cutting and pasting.

..if their bored they could also get a bit sweaty about the date of leaving. That could pass a couple of hours and it's not as though the answer is obvious.

Sorry I'm failing to detect your tone THM.

Are you saying the answer [i]is[/i] obvious? Why?

Do you agree with Dominic Grieve that the unnecessary setting of a exit date fetters ministers hands?

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/dominic-grieve-to-tie-ourselves-to-a-brexit-date-is-both-pointless-and-dangerous-a3690616.html

It's all idiotic posturing and much more about who thinks they have support rather than anything meaningful in terms of brexit. We either withdraw A50 or leave on the appointed date and it makes not a jot of difference what statements are made and which laws are passed in the meantime.

Graham. Yes blindingly.

We either withdraw A50 or leave on the appointed date

Or agree a different date with the EU if both sides think it is required and the best course of action for all sides.

And if their bored they could also get a bit sweaty about the date of leaving. That could pass a couple of hours and it's not as though the answer is obvious.

Is this one a riddle? Did you think of it yourself, or use some kind of primitive AI?

It’s almost as if the government believe A50 is retractable and want to stick a date in primary legislation to make that harder to do.

Can’t be. Can it?

Graham. Yes blindingly.

Okay. Could you possibly expand on that a little for those who don't think it is so clear (i.e. Me)?

It’s simple - add two

Simple but noisy obviously

unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

True

Are you being deliberately cryptic for some reason THM?

To quote some of the well reasoned objection that suggests to me it is less obvious:

Hilary Benn (Chair of the Exiting the EU Select Committee among other things):

"When the Secretary of State appeared before the Select Committee, he told us that it is possible that the negotiations may go to the 59th minute of the 11th hour. That is undoubtedly possible. In those circumstances, does it really make sense to bind the hands of the country and those who are negotiating on its behalf to get the best possible deal, which is also the weakness of the Government’s own amendment 383?"

Dominic Grieve:

"I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. Does he recognise that there are two different issues relating to exit day? Some of the amendments were tabled to express the fear that there might be multiple exit dates. That is very different from fixing a day. Obviously, under article 50 there is an expiry date, but, as my hon. Friend knows, article 50 itself contains provision for a possible extension of the period if that is what is needed to conclude an agreement. That is why I find the Government’s amendment so strange. It seems to me to fetter the Government, to add nothing to the strength of their negotiating position, and, in fact, potentially to create a very great problem that could be visited on us at a later stage."

No

It's really not difficult. Kelvin and I just used fewer words than Grieve.

Okay, fair enough. I thought you had an actual point to make.

Grieve was far more complete though, as regards why the government shouldn't try and remove possible tools to a achieving an agreed deal. Deadlines should be delayable where a successful outcome is more important, to all sides, than an arbitrary cut off. He can also have a place in the emergency government when we need it, please.

I think I answered why the government want a date in the bill. It’s nothing to do with the date.

Okay, fair enough. I thought you had an actual point to make.

Are you new around here?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/sex-slang-steak-views-leave-remain-worlds-apart

Wow was that a survey from threads on stw?

Excellent contribution Dr, well done. A step up...

Deadlines should be delayable where a successful outcome is more important

As you said earlier Kelvin the deadlines are not set by us. So the whole debate is pointless. We have an exit date. We don’t have details on the transition. That’s were focus should be.

. So the whole debate is pointless. We have an exit date. We don’t have details on the transition. That’s were focus should be.

As a significant number of people believe if the car crash/nuclear option is on the table the call it all off one should be too. We all know you hate the idea of people changing their minds once the facts are presented but it's something responsible governments should consider.

Keeping making stuff up

But you are partially correct about the outcome - Brexshit. What we don’t know is the terms and despite what you say there is not a single outcome, there are several variations. It would be good if we could get on with negotiating that.

The last polls suggest that people want the process concluded ASAP even remainers. So we still have to see his massive change of minds

And day 1 of the scrutiny already passed. It was illuminating wasn’t it

We have given the explanation - if you want to stay lost in the noise that’s your choice

Excellent contribution Dr, well done.

Akin to dismissing something as "blindingly obvious" and "simple" without any further explanation or discussion?

FWIW the Chair of the Brexit Select Committee seems to think it is less obvious, that it runs directly contrary to evidence given by the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, and binds the hands of our negotiators unnecessarily.

I'd have been interested to hear your take on that.

and in new news, Brexit is now going to be green

A new environment watchdog to protect UK wildlife, land, water and air once Britain leaves the European Union is being planned by the government.
Environment Secretary Michael Gove said the body would hold the powerful to account and deliver a green Brexit.
The plans come amid concerns that environmental regulations enshrined in EU law could be lost after Brexit.
Mr Gove told the Andrew Marr Show standards would not be sacrificed as part of a potential US free trade deal.

Same as before

You can go to the EU website and see the full timetable. It hasn’t changed

And we know who can and who cannot change it. We also know what happens if no deal is reached