Have you found a leaver to ask?

Have we done Redwood advising people not to invest in the UK, whilst simultaneously pushing madly for a hard Brexit, I wonder if he plans to buy up cheap afterwards ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/11/12/british-lawmaker-advises-investors-to-take-their-money-out-of-the-uk/

Is that an admission that you (THM) have no idea of any solution that will be acceptable to all sides? What do you think happens in that case?

I’ve made views on NI well known in the past.

No change since then.

When you repeat factual errors often enough folk will start to question your character not just your intellect - see trump for example

I wouldn't abuse Trump if he were on here. I'd explain to him why he was wrong.

Have you found a leaver to ask?

Yes, they all say it'll be sorted, but can't paint a picture of a possible scenerio that they can accept as "we have really left" that would also prevent a new customs border between either Ireland/NI or NI/GB, neither of which is really acceptable to the people living in NI. Start taking about agriculture and food/drink production that involves people and companies both sides of the border, and they start to get even more flustered as they have to actually think about what is ahead (that they voted for). Can you paint us a picture THM? You do keep saying that insisting on NI problem being addressed is a delaying tactic… how would you address it? Does you picture keep all those "not really left" people happy without shafting people living and working across the border? I still can't see a way, especially given timescales, and I really, honestly, want to see one.

Now, Gibraltar next… what's our plan for not shafting the folk living there?

Anyway, do you think the Spitfires might frighten the unicorns?

Don't you know [b]anything[/b]?

A study was initiated by Boris Johnson to design horn-mounted ear muffs (a British manufacturer had agreed to make 10,000 units at only 300% of the price a Chinese company could do them for), but then they realized that cyborgs can't hear so......

They'll be specially trained to distinguish the Rolls Royce Merlin from the Daimler Benz that powers those dastardly Messerschmitts.

I have no idea but will be very interesting to see what solution/fudge they come up with. Inevitably it will be some form of soft border and perhaps a new and innovative solution. Who knows?

I steer well clear of Irish politics. It’s beyond my comprehension so I leave it to those who know better. I have read both sides’ briefing papers but don’t feel any closer to knowing what the outcome will be. I did note the EUs opposition to the obvious need for a bespoke solution (their words) but no surprise there....

I wouldn't abuse Trump if he were on here.

Nah, sorry, that's a step too far in the let's-all-hug-and-make-up love-in we now apparently have to have after nearly 1,050 pages because someone can't or doesn't want to answer a straight question.

If Trump was on here I'd consider buying a road bike. After calling him a ludicrous, bouffanted, orange tosspot, that is.

perhaps a new and innovative solution

😆

So it is unicorns, then?

I wouldn't abuse Trump if he were on here. I'd explain to him why he was wrong.

Anyway we are not discussing what you would do we are discussing what actually happens- amazingly folk are "rude" to serial liars. I am not sure who exactly this is news to or why you are surprised or why you think this is "Bad".
To me the cure is for liars like trump to stop lying rather than for folk to stop accurately describing this behaviour because its "rude". YMMV

I have not said whether it it right or wrong [ I can see both views tbh] but expecting it to not happen is naive wishful thinking,Who you blame is your choice the liar or the ones who call them a liar.

So who's pointing out this abuse, I seemed to have missed it?

Leprechauns shurely.

I just checked the gov website and there is a link to the NI Affairs Ctte meeting on the border question with submissions from Swiss and Norwegian representatives on 1 Nov. Might be worth a read on train home.

I have no idea

That makes millions of us.

I'd just like a hint that someome has an idea, that might be acceptable to those pushing for us to Leave as well keeping the peace in NI, even if the rest of us can"t understand it fully.

perhaps a new and innovative solution

I think it's called reunification

It would be funny if it wasnt true..

http://newsthump.com/2017/11/13/brexit-vote-will-see-parliament-given-choice-between-terrible-deal-or-even-worse-one/

Brexit secretary David Davis has announced that there will be a parliamentary vote on the terms of the Brexit deal, giving MPs the choice between an awful deal, and an even worse one.

Davis told reporters that it was important that MPs are given the final decision on whether to accept the negotiated deal – or to leave the EU without one – so that he cannot be personally blamed for the inevitable shit-show that follows.

“The negotiations are extremely complex, but they are going well,” Davis told the press.

“But like any functioning democracy, the ultimate say on whether the nation accepts the negotiated deal will come down to our elected officials.

“Before March 2019, they will be given a free and democratic vote on whether to go with the truly awful deal I will have inevitably negotiated, or to go instead with the even worse option of leaving without any deal whatsoever.

“It will be their choice entirely, they will choose which direction the country goes in, not me – and you should all remember that when the recriminations start.”

Those voters who remain sceptical that Brexit will be good for the country have wondered if ‘Not leaving the EU’, might be an option when the parliamentary vote comes around.

“Don’t be ridiculous,” insisted Davis.

“Your options are very simply ‘in the shit’ or ‘something even more awful’ – ‘staying as we are’ is never, ever going to be an option. The people have spoken, and as such our MPs must chuck us off a cliff, or push us into the fire.

“Suggesting there is any other option is frankly absurd

I just checked the gov website and there is a link to the NI Affairs Ctte meeting on the border question with submissions from Swiss and Norwegian representatives on 1 Nov. Might be worth a read on train home.

Remembering that our government has ruled out Swiss and Norway style arrangements already. For purely party politics reason I assume. Why look at an already existing arrangement that it might be possible to closely replicate in the timescales in front of us… practical Conservatives…

cloudnine - Member

😆

Swiss / norway style agreements would still mean a hard border somewhere unless it applies to thee whole of the UK. In which case it would no0t be acceptable to the leavers as we would still be bound by the ECJ and most EU rules

So any sign of those 58 Brexit impact papers yet?

The deadline was last Tuesday I believe.

Last I heard there was [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-government-secret-studies-publish-economic-impact-eu-leave-steve-baker-brexit-a8041976.html ]"some misunderstanding"[/url] and Steve Baker was claiming that they didn't [i]really[/i] exist as such.

Which I suppose is slightly better than "The dog ate it", but does make me wonder what David Davis was talking about when he said at the end of October that [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-theresa-may-brexit-reports-not-read-secret-detail-uk-economy-impact-leave-eu-a8022946.html ]"they are in excruciating detail"[/url].

Absolutely pathetic!

Northern Ireland Affairs Committew Q & A with Swiss and Norwegian Reps

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/869f8e74-a3d7-47ce-85f8-6f70fe6d9f12

practical Conservatives…

Perhaps pause and think before posting. The clues in the name of the Ctte.

Perhaps pause and think before posting.

Also you might want to check the membership of that committee.

For anyone that can't be bothered:

Dr Andrew Murrison (Chair) - Conservative
Mr Gregory Campbell - Democratic Unionist Party
Maria Caulfield - Conservative
Mr Stephen Hepburn - Labour
Lady Hermon - Independent
Kate Hoey - Labour
Jack Lopresti - Conservative
Conor McGinn - Labour
Nigel Mills - Conservative
Ian Paisley - Democratic Unionist Party
Jim Shannon - Democratic Unionist Party
Bob Stewart - Conservative

So 5 Tory, 3 DUP, 3 Labour, 1 Indy.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/membership/

The government are approaching this problem the way I used to approach doing homework projects at college . . . .

😉

indeed a cross party Ctte taking evidence from people with experience

How very dare they

Very encouraging evidence as well.

ssshhhh

mefty - Member
Very encouraging evidence as well.

for example?

I'm sorry I missed this post

How exactly can the UK courts rule over an EU issue? What compels the EU courts to abide by the UK courts decision? (which by your own admission isn't that A50 is irreversible.)

I think you are missing the point that I am making. Why was the Supreme Court's commentary on the irreversibility not decisive? Because that argument was not made and therefore it was not determinative to the judgement. However, the Supreme Court still chose to comment on it, this is technically called obiter dictum, not binding as precedent but persuasive. At present, absent any other judgements considering or mentioning the issue it is the most persuasive evidence of how a court would interpret it.

mefty - Member
I'm sorry I missed this post

How exactly can the UK courts rule over an EU issue? What compels the EU courts to abide by the UK courts decision? (which by your own admission isn't that A50 is irreversible.)
I think you are missing the point that I am making. Why was the Supreme Court's commentary on the irreversibility not decisive? Because that argument was not made and therefore it was not determinative to the judgement. However, the Supreme Court still chose to comment on it, this is technically called as obiter dictum, not binding as precedent but persuasive. At present, absent any other judgements considering or mentioning the issue it is the most persuasive evidence of how a court would interpret it.

we're never going to agree. But regardless, it's not even particularly a matter for the courts to decide, unless there was a conflict, which still wouldn't be the uk courts. If the uk gov wanted to reverse A50 and the europeans agree, it's not a matter for the courts, it's ultimately a point of political agreement.

we'll agree to disagree.

Genuimely interested in your observations re this select committee btw.

for example?

Watch it, Swiss guy very positive about the ability to control a border without huge delays.

you really should check your own tone

Its really amusing to see one of the rudest posters on here [ also in that club] moan incessantly about others rudeness

He is not a turn the cheek sort of a guy or a do unto others sort of a person.

I am watching it.

So far it's missing the point that the logistics isn't really the Irish problem, it's the political impact and symbolism of it. Seems to be spectacularly missing the point as far as I can see.

it's ultimately a point of political agreement.

I don't disagree with that, if all parties to the treaty agree an amendment that would certainly be case and is much misunderstood, there is always a political solution. Sadly I don't think the EU have to date shown the willingness to look for one, we certainly have.

ooooh don’t mention Gibraltar they’re hoping that one slips by without anyone noticing.

It’s not like Spain can veto our deal errrrrr...

Greece may also want a few marble things we bought at a boot sale back as well.

I’m not sure about how realistic vetoing of our deal is but we all know what happens when you let people vote on stuff.

One of the leavers who I do read regularly is Roger Bootle albeit in the Torygraph.

My parents recommended his "the problem with Europe" book before the ref, so I foolishly read it on holiday before I realised he wrote for the torygraph. It nearly ended up in the sea on several occasions, such as when he said it was Europe's fault that doctors couldn't work longer hours. It seemed ridiculous, but given "bonfire of worker's rights" seems to be the way we're headed, it's obviously a common viewpoint.

mefty - Member
it's ultimately a point of political agreement.
I don't disagree with that, if all parties to the treaty agree an amendment that would certainly be case and is much misunderstood, there is always a political solution. Sadly I don't think the EU have to date shown the willingness to look for one, we certainly have.

for cancelling A50? Tusk has spelled that out quite clearly.

Tusk has spelled that out quite clearly.

the uk government would need to ask that.

an expensive business this putting up borders lark.

..he said it was Europe's fault that doctors couldn't work longer hours

Well that's sort of accurate. Pesky European Working Time Directive insisting that your doctor has had at least [i]some[/i] sleep in the last 36 hours.

But [i]most[/i] people would consider that a positive thing.

woman at 10.13 is getting straight to the point!

Well the UK government has no intention to do that, but the question remains.

The UK government is quite clearly looking for a political solution to Brexit. To date the EU has approached it technocratically when THM talks about about the "grown ups" he is talking about a political solution. There is an assumption that this is a zero sum game i.e. to the extent that the UK loses the EU gains, that is a false assumption, all parties will lose and the net gainers will be elsewhere and everyone in Europe (not the EU) will be worse off.

There is an assumption that this is a zero sum game i.e. to the extent that the UK loses the EU gains, that is a false assumption

Who on earth is making that assumption?
Everyone sensible says both the UK and the EU will lose out (although some individual EU countries might benefit and indeed may push a line where the EU does worse overall for their personal gain).
The thing is the smart money is on the UK losing out a lot more.

I understand exactly what thm's position is perfectly fine. I still disagree that a shit deal or no deal are the only options as davis seems intent on today, they are the only options through choice.

Grown ups as far as I like to think, consider all options.

He is not a turn the cheek sort of a guy or a do unto others sort of a person.

Who on earth is making that assumption?

Well I think Edukator assumes that financial services will decamp to Europe.

Especially and ironically in financial services

Well I think Edukator assumes that financial services will decamp to Europe.

How, what, why ........ 😯

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/11/12/british-lawmaker-advises-investors-to-take-their-money-out-of-the-uk/#7ca9b01d4c1e

I understand exactly what thm's position is perfectly fine. I still disagree that a shit deal or no deal are the only options as davis seems intent on today, they are the only options through choice.

They are the only existent options until there is change.

I think we're done with this pantomime, agree to disagree? 😆

Let’s not forget those who argue that planning for alternative solutions is a waste of time. Quite forceful on the issue 😉

btw they are basically saying if you want an invisible border, you need to load that border up with spooks! 😆 that'll work!

teamhurtmore - Member
Let’s not forget those who argue that planning for alternative solutions is a waste of time. Quite forceful on the issue

Well we're in agreement there, you can never be sure what the loonballs in power will do. I think this gov will collapse within a year or so, making a mockery of the whole thing. but aye, if you've vested interests you should be planning all options. stay, shit deal, no deal.

mefty - Member

They are the only existent options until there is change.

change or a bit of reality dawns on the tories.

teamhurtmore - Member
Let’s not forget those who argue that planning for alternative solutions is a waste of time

I think we're done with this pantomime, agree to disagree?

I never have a problem with doing that, so yes. What does irk me, and I am not accusing you of this, is when I have argued a point and then they pop up a few pages later saying no one has addressed the point.

Maybe you’re not very good at arguing your point Mefty.

A possibility nothing more. 😉

well we'd need to discuss specific examples but there's a long history of going round in circles and people deliberately forgetting what happened 4 or 5 pages ago.

Maybe we are ALL too busy arguing to notice there is a point to any of this 😉

most likely! 😆

I think the problem may be that our chief negotiator is an ex Tate & Lyle guy with a chip on his shoulder about the EU and no apparent negotiation skill.
Repeatedly saying you want to be flexible and innovate while shown no apparent flexibility and a lack of realistic innovation ain’t good enough.
May should have called for a government of national unity when she first took office and got some decent brains from all over the political spectrum.
She didn’t and the rest is history.

I never have a problem with doing that, so yes. What does irk me, and I am not accusing you of this, is when I have argued a point and then they pop up a few pages later saying no one has addressed the point

Mefty you are assuming that the posse bother to read posts. You are now a closet leaver and a marked man. 😉

I doubt Ed would be keen on financial services locating to Europe. Did you forget the list of their evil ways?

IGM labour would never have signed up,to that. They are revelling in the Tory misfortune. The irony will be when they are the ones delivering Brexshit. Lady Nugget in full Britannia kit.. It's almost worth the nightmare just to see that alone

Shame for Stramer to be associated with that lot though

Mefty you are assuming that the posse bother to read posts. You are now a closet leaver and a marked man.

Maybe you’re not very good at arguing your point Mefty.

A possibility, perhaps I should be more insulting.

well we'd need to discuss specific examples but there's a long history of going round in circles and people deliberately forgetting what happened 4 or 5 pages ago.

Not really, ignoring them is far easier. A bit of self control obviates the need for an extension.

I doubt Ed would be keen on financial services locating to Europe. Did you forget the list of their evil ways?

One of his many great paradoxes.

Not really, ignoring them is far easier

One of the "departed" greatly enjoyed your Closeau post 😉

I doubt Ed would be keen on financial services locating to Europe. Did you forget the list of their evil ways?

One of his many great paradoxes.

Not really, ignoring them is far easier.

he UK government is quite clearly looking for a political solution to Brexit

They are looking for a solution that is legally impossible and are not negotiating seriously at all

mefty - Member

Well I think Edukator assumes that financial services will decamp to Europe.

Alredy happening on a significant scale, due to accelerate hugely if nothing from the UK side in terms of accepting reality / negotiating seriously in the next couple of weeks.

come on Mefty - you are not daft - why do you keep saying stuff that is clearly untrue?

Playing the man again?

Not really, he has been excoriating on the venality of them and then been gleeful at how they will be simply transfer their servers. That is a paradox.

Alredy happening on a significant scale - why do you keep saying stuff that is clearly untrue.

😀 And on that bombshell 😀

Sergio Ermotti, the bank’s chief executive, said on Friday that it was becoming “more and more unlikely” that UBS would have to move as many people as it initially thought

mefty - Member

What does irk me, and I am not accusing you of this, is when I have argued a point and then they pop up a few pages later saying no one has addressed the point.

~that could be me. I tend to pop in and out of this thread so don't see every post. If it is me than apologies

Don't apologise for popping in and out - I just popped in having been away pretty much since claiming page 1000, and whilst I'm tempted to make a point it's clear it's mainly just bickering here now.

THM - if she really had declared for national unity it might have been difficult for labour to say no - though I agree it would probably have been bad for them long term.

Mefty - in terms of making your argument (well or badly) I think you sometimes (and please take this as constructive criticism, I don’t mean it to be derogatory, although I see there is a risk) come across as a bit of a smart alec, a barrack room lawyer as my father would have said. That said your google skills are better than mine.