But internet bullying can - see above

As I said, you'd know.

Perhaps if you didn't play the tedious contrarian for a hobby you'd find you were in conflict with fewer people.

I am always a contrarian in the face of BS. And there is a constant flow since the vote that makes the Brexshiteers look almost truthful

No wonder project fear lost

Snapshot of what the rest of Europe's press think of us - Kabinett of Horrors is my fave

https://twitter.com/NinaDSchick/status/928573459805982721

They believe that Davis will not produce the €, defeat the end of level bad guy and progress to the next level.
How many lives do we have left?

I thought leave was project fear, THM. You know fear of immigrants, fear of Brussels etc

Remain was about how much wealthier you’d be if you stayed in, how much better everyone would get on.

There was a lot of BS, starting with the project fear tag.

Unfortunately BS often wins. You can’t counter it with facts.

Perhaps the remainers, if you’re right, are just learning and evolving.

The bullies are the ones who belittle and demean people and who attempt to wind them up for sport. Not the ones who poke fun and correct the utter nonsense spouted.

Crying bully all the time cos people disagree with you and poke fun at the arrant nonsense you post just makes you look even more ludicrous.

Basically if you can't take it dsdon't dish it out

PS this is the finest BS in years

The 3Ms are the true power brokers here. The test mere bit part players

I mean, come on, I might give you two, but May? May?
Power broker? Theresa May the failure of a PM, who has little power around the cabinet table never mind the negotiating table?

The mind boggles.

Don’t let yourself get into these conversations at that level.

Unfortunately BS often wins. You can’t counter it with facts.-

You are correct there IGM. Very correct. 😉

The next thing sex pests will join in, let’s see....

IGM - read the previous para !

Fact remains as we saw last month. It comes down to the Germans, French and Uk

The only shift in sentiment seen so far followed their intervention not the facade of the pretend negotiations

Don’t let yourself get into these conversations at that level.

Good poInt. Will leave it be. Speak tomorrow. Thanks for the sanity

I am always a contrarian in the face of BS.

You must spend a lot of time arguing with yourself.

poke fun at the arrant nonsense you post just makes you look even more ludicrous.

Just a few of Edukator's pearls of wisdom poking fun

Media propoganda has diverted that anger away from the real culprits, the financiers (yes you), to: terrorists, the EU, Sadam, the EU, peadophiles, the EU, immigrants, the EU, Merkel, the EU, people on benefit, the EU... but you know who's really screwing over Britian, you.

You're a pawn in the paracitic money-grabbing game that not only led to this, THM, but also means the EU has to be really careful when dealing with the UK because you City banking types want Britain as a cheating, dirty-dealing tax haven.

"Brexshiteers" are thick, xenophobic, gullible or have vested interests. I thought we'd worked that out around page 150.

Compared to the bullying I have had from THM? Offensive but not as offensive IMO

THM sneers, deliberately attempts to get folk to lose their temper, has called me a series of unpleasant names and has been banned for his bullying.

has had people leave this thread due to his behaviours are still he likes to lecture others on how to behave.

The beam in thine eye

THM sneers, deliberately attempts to get folk to lose their temper, has called me a series of unpleasant names and has been banned for his bullying.

In your own words

Basically if you can't take it dsdon't dish it out

Any yet you are required to post until a different login.

its true none of the three of us is able to deliver a massive lecture on behaviour or decorum on here. However I think one would need to be feeling very charitable indeed to not consider THM putting in effort here to provoke a reaction or basically trolling its Ninfan lite basically and just as deliberate.

Mefty - while disagreeing with you on many things I also respect that you keep it civil usually and know your stuff.

I am not going to debate THM with you because its dangerous ground. Loosing my patience with him after continual goading and bullying from him post after post for months on end and telling him what I thought of him is what I was banned for in the end although my behaviour before that lead to me being on a shoogly peg.

However I accept where I did wrong and attempt to correct this. this is the key difference.

What gets my goat is this blind insistence that "the people have spoken" so we're going to facepalm our way out of Europe no matter what, even though the majority is tiny for such a massive decision, even though it's freely recognised that truths were rare to find during the campaign - ****in sort yourselves out, politician folks, you have no problem going against the will of the people when it suits you so why has the line been drawn in the sand on this particular issue?

What odds from Ladbrokes that Brexit will not go ahead?
Looks to me that we're heading in that direction.
Fingers crossed.

I really hope you're right.

I'm still hoping that Brexit is such a shambles that it just gets buried... along with the current government.

I'm afraid you're being delusional, Frank. THM, self-appointed spokesman of "teh grownupz" says so 🙄

Junkyard - lazarus

how many people have left the thread because of you?

Point of order: far fewer than have left the thread because of the collective bullying of the pro-Euro forumites.

Pretty much all of the pro-Brexit crowd have been hounded out, to the point that the pro-Euro crowd have had to turn on one of their own.

Unless I'm wrong, in which case hats off to THM for lying so consistently about his position for in excess of a year now. Most liars trip up eventually, but not THM. His lies have been consistent from the off!
💡

Considered not posting that due to the inevitable backlash, but sod it; I'm thick skinned and generally the baaaaark is worse than the bite. 😉

tjagain - Member

Loosing my patience

Instaban!!! 😀

Point of order: far fewer than have left the thread because of the collective bullying of the pro-Euro forumites.

The whole history of mankind has been about joining together to resist tyranny and danger from, the first small family groups to villages to tribes to kingdoms to nations and alliances together we are better off history proves it, time and time again by coming together we have achieved great things and changed the world divided we fall, at the end of the Roman empire came the dark ages a step back to petty wars and the all powerful king kicking our asses with his gang of thugs,we came together in unions to resist the all powerful mill owner to fight the Nazis the list goes on and on Brexit to me feels like a step back to the dark ages history proves we are better off together changing the EU from within to what it should be.

Sorry if this reads poorly I am not the most literate guy on here.

And yes bullying on here is one reason I rarely post.

Pretty much all of the pro-Brexit crowd have been hounded out,

No, they repeatedly posted bullshit dressed as facts and were consistently called out on it. Rather than dealing with the facts, they decided that they'd rather stay in their little fantasy red white and blue Brexit bubbles

...and wicki: nailed it. Brexit is a huge societal step backwards.

Still not sure about the bullying thing though. I genuinely think a few throwing that term around here (a) need a long hard line ok in the mirror, and (b) wouldn't last five minutes in my four year old daughter's playground.

Well said sbob and thank you mefty!

FWIW

1. Pro membership of EU, anti €
2. Pro ALL four freedoms
3. Pro democracy and respecting its process and outcomes

Then deal with what is in front of you not what you wish was in front of you. I would rather not have Brexshit. But that’s bye the bye. It’s happening. Tant pis.

The accusations of bullying are ridiculous from some of the folk. For what its worth I felt some of the language used at jambalaya was over the top but as others said posting nonsense and being called out on it is not bullying nor is calling out the unpleasant sneering from THM.

THM is the bully not those who call him out

Its a classic diversion tactic to complain about being bullied when actually you are being called out for spouting nonsense

https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-keeping-our-eu-citizenship-post-brexit/w

petition to keep EU citizenship

Time to move on ?

(In all respects 😉 )

As I keep on saying there simply is not a solution to NI that will satisfy the EU, the Irish government, that respects the GFA and satisfies the brexiteers

An internal EU document seen by the Guardian suggests the talks over the border on Ireland remain in limbo with the bloc’s negotiators insisting a hard border can only be avoided by Northern Ireland effectively staying in the single market and customs union.

The document says it is “essential for the UK to commit to ensuring that a hard border on the island of Ireland is avoided, including by ensuring no emergence of regulatory divergence from those rules of the same internal market and the customs union ... necessary for meaningful north-south cooperation, the all-island economy, and the protection of the Good Friday agreement”.

The Northern Ireland secretary, James Brokenshire, ruled out such a move last week insisting that the integrity of the UK’s internal market would not be put in jeopardy.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/09/uk-and-eu-business-leaders-to-press-may-on-brexit-urgency

If we have a democratic process then the thing to do is to campaign to stay in the EU to fight to convince parliament to do what is right for the county as a whole . It is anti democratic to say the nation should be bound by a plebiscite which scraped an exceeding narrow victory,when the knowledge and facts have now changed.

Has anyone seen any study that says Brexit will be good for UK manufacturing or UK jobs?

It seems to me though that a lot of what THM is posting is not nonsense. It might be opinion, and therefore unverifiable, but to dismiss it because it doesn't match your opinion is wrong (cf youknowwho where virtually everything was verifiably wrong 😉 ).

There does come a point where to agree to differ opinions is fine and to keep shouting ever louder that he must be wrong does become a bit stupid, that's not adult debate; equally I do agree that some of THM's responses to this continued barrage have deliberately (to me) verged on to a sort of trolling - not entirely true because I think and respect his position is what he believes, and to be true trolling to me you'll take the contrary line for the sake of the response - but there should have come a point where both sides should just accept there is a different opinion and leave it there.

FWIW

1. Pro membership of EU, anti €
2. Pro ALL four freedoms
3. Pro democracy and respecting its process and outcomes

The only bit I still don't get is (3) - democracy didn't end in June last year and when the decision was as close and as is now being found out to be, as daft as it is, I just don't understand why if (1) and (2) are core beliefs then I don't get THM's position on (3) that this harmful decision must be respected above all good sense. But that's opinion again (on both sides)

theotherjonv - Member

It seems to me though that a lot of what THM is posting is not nonsense.

He states things as fact that are not opinions - just simply wrong. as in the above example

I am sure people who see more of his posts could provide many more examples

FFS!!

Anyway TOJ good points. On (3) yes room for debate for sure. The swing factor for me is if a government holds a referendum with the clear directive that they will honour the result whatever the outcome, then that is what they must do. Others may disagreed and hide behind the advisory BS but that is disingenuous IMO

But frankly that doesn’t matter. I am merely being pragmatic. Do I want Brexshit? No. Do I expect to happen? Yes. So hence my focus is on dealing with the likely outcome not revisiting a lost argument with falsehoods and moaning

So as a priority, we will pursue s bold and ambitious FTA with the EU. This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade in G&S between Britain and the EU’s member states. It should give British companies the maximum freedom to trade and operate within European markets - and let European businesses do the same in Britain

TM 17 January 2017

Quacks like a duck....

You decide

The swing factor for me is if a government holds a referendum with the clear directive that they will honour the result whatever the outcome, then that is what they must do. Others may disagreed and hide behind the advisory BS but that is disingenuous IMO

Your view is perfectly fine so is the view that we can have another vote if we discover that that leaving wont deliver what was promised

Imagine [ thought experiment time] If for example there was a point where we knew say 85% of people opposed Brexit would you just ignore this because we have had a vote ?

I am merely being pragmatic. Do I want Brexshit? No. Do I expect to happen? Yes. So hence my focus is on dealing with the likely outcome not revisiting a lost argument with falsehoods and moaning

So hence my focus is on dealing with the likely outcome

I guess you're fortunate that you're in a position to be able to deal with likely outcome.

As I've asked before, how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?

(Take the bill, roll it tightly and grease it lightly excepted)

But frankly that doesn’t matter. I am merely being pragmatic. Do I want Brexshit? No. Do I expect to happen? Yes. So hence my focus is on dealing with the likely outcome not revisiting a lost argument with falsehoods and moaning

It was going so well until you got to the third word from the end. Most of it is not false, whereas a lot of what you claim is either self contradictory (e.g. your two stances on the three intractable problems) or downright untrue e.g. that we are currently negotiating an FTA. You'd do well to better separate your often ill-informed opinion from fact.

So as a priority, we will pursue s bold and ambitious FTA with the EU.

Well, of course we will "pursue" that. What else would we pursue? What else would she [u]profess[/u] to pursue? The question is, if (if) that is indeed the priority - and not the reduction in forriners, reversion to imperial measures or whatever - what will we be willing to give to get there, and will that be acceptable to a) the Tory brexiteers, and b) the clot in the street who voted for brexit?

Well, of course we will "pursue" that. What else would we pursue

Good question. No need to ask me. Ask those who deny this.

More Remoaning reporting from the telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/05/britain-would-booming-wasnt-brexit-mark-carney-says/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_fetch_&utm_source=social&utm_medium=fetch&utm_campaign=qne

Ask those who deny this.

Nobody is denying it, it's just that you, THM, change the verb to change the meaning to say talks on a FTA are happening now (which the EU say they are not) or wil be happening shortly (but you are unable to provide any link to demostrate this).

You misquote other posters and you misquote stuff from the media and official organisations which (IMO) is why you never link it.

Well given we already have a FTA as members of the EU then don’t leave, job done. 😉

I think THM’s 3 premises are valid and I think that is his position.
It’s not far from mine.
Where we differ is the implicit assumption he has that the people are beholden to a democratic vote. I would contend that democracy is beholden to the people.
And on that basis, no argument is ever fully over because people change their minds - indeed as we showed yesterday it appears they are changing their minds on Brexit (THM - you had polls that showed something else I think but you haven’t posted them yet).
Overall though, I don’t think he’s a closet leaver, just someone who needs clarity and preferably stability for his job. And at some level don’t we all.

PS - I’m still up for that one pint bet.

Make it 5 I’m thirsty and you are buying!!!

At London prices - no way !

Oooh. Brave words, brave words

Unfair advantage as I know the answer. Spent months going through all scenarios internally, with lawyers and clients. So confident on who is paying 😉

But if, despite my warning, you still want to lose the bet, I’m still thirsty!! 😉

I'll try again.

As I've asked before, how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?

Buy gold, sobriety.

[quote=sobriety ]I'll try again.
As I've asked before, how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?

lube up. we're gonna get ****ed...

Not a lot I can do professionally bar try to protect my patients from the staff shortages coming from the loss of EU nurses.

Avoid the papers, news and this thread

At the end of the day, there will be a messy compromise/deal and lengthy transition.

The UK is already slowing down and this will accelerate and probably depend the slowdown. So prepare for that scenario as you would do normally.

Other than that stay calm and carry on.

Or alternatively enjoy reading remoaner hyperbole and exaggeration as it’s much more fun than the dull reality.

Or alternatively enjoy reading remoaner hyperbole and exaggeration as it’s much more fun than the dull reality.

Somewhere in almost every post you write is cheap, pathetic provocation, THM. If you are going to troll at least put a little thought into it.

how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?

The UK is already slowing down and this will accelerate and probably depend the slowdown. So prepare for that scenario as you would do normally.

Other than that stay calm and carry on.

You are just talking about business impacts - those whose family situations are impacted, or who are concerned for the future of NI, etc etc may find it less easy to adopt a relaxed attitude.

"At the end of the day, there will be a messy compromise/deal and lengthy transition." and do the reports you have read suggest that process will put the UKs manufacturing industries and employment markets in a better or worse position than they would be if we remained in Europe?

mikewsmith - Member

Was the bullying when we kept asking for proof and facts etc?

No.
To quote someone who ceased posting well within the first one hundred pages;
"This thread brings out the worst in people".

And what about a UK citizen, living and working in EU, with wife and child who do not have UK citizenship. Just cross fingers and hope for the best in a couple of years?

(real example BTW)

"This thread brings out the worst in people".

I think your real example would find it very easy to get citizenship for his adopted land, thecaptain. And he'd have pretty much no chance of getting British citizenship for his wife and child given the criteria published by the British government. He would be better to forget about ever returning to the UK other than on holiday.

Not much comfort here, I'm afraid cap'n

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/citizens-rights-administrative-procedures-in-the-uk/technical-note-citizens-rights-administrative-procedures-in-the-uk

To quote someone who ceased posting well within the first one hundred pages;

Given up after 100 pages? Who cares what a quitter thinks ?!! 🙂

😆

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/10/uk-given-two-week-deadline-to-make-concessions-on-brexit-divorce-bill

"At the end of the day, there will be a messy compromise/deal and lengthy transition."

Less than a 50 / 50 chance of any deal. Of course that includes transition according to EU officials

We have yet to see any significant movement on the 3 main issues in the year that this farce has been going on. 9 months left to sort out the 3 initial issues then everything else?

sobriety - Member
I'll try again.

As I've asked before, how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?

Well I’m tempted to say turn to drink but that wouldn’t be helpful.
Pay off debts and don’t spend what you can get away without spending I’d say.
Not sure if saving is actually a good idea (note: is rarely bad) as I have no idea what interest and currency are going to do. As I understand it, a fair amount of money is being invested overseas, hence why (as we discussed ages ago didn’t we THM) the FTSE100 rises as the pound falls, but that’s not entirely new and you may be too late.
Oh and be educated, qualified in a variety of things, experienced with transferable skills, several passports and multiple languages.
And work in an industry not subject to automation.
If you can do that you’ll be fine.
Probably.

Thanks guys, I was slightly pressing THM for an answer, as he sometimes seems a little focussed on his specific area rather than the bigger picture, and don't we all from time to time! Mostly to see if he had any ideas over and above the broadly sensible ones that a mere engineer would work out for themselves;-)

In answer to IGM, debts are being paid, savings will commence after that, I'm a degree educated engineer in an insustry with global employment opportunites, eligable for another passport, speak a couple of other languages really badly, but would probably be able to get back into them if I had to, and companies like the one I work for are responsible for the automation (and also paid mostly in foreign currency for our work). So I'll probably be alright jack. I just wish I didn't have to be.

what should the average man in the street do? go on the Australian Canadian or New Zealand immigration websites and try and get qualifications that score high points pay off as much debt as possible to maximise your emigration capital.

what should the average man in the street do?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/10/fed-up-brexit-britain-come-work-denmark-eu

You are just talking about business impacts - those whose family situations are impacted, or who are concerned for the future of NI, etc etc may find it less easy to adopt a relaxed attitude.

Incorrect but then correct

Ditto UK nationals face the legal limbo of what does third country citizenship’s involve/imply. And some of their countrymen and women couldnt give a toss about them and would be happy for the government to ignore their responsibility and make silly unilateral declarations. With friends like these....

Crankb- worse, said so all along

Oh and be educated, qualified in a variety of things, experienced with transferable skills, several passports and multiple languages. And work in an industry not subject to automation.

That’s true Brexshit or no Brexshit. Lack those and your screwed either way.

Sobriety - was going out for lunch so didn’t answer properly. There is no one answer clearly. But Mr & Mrs Average are always screwed.

Fantastic link Leku. 😀

THM - I think the premium on passports and languages just rose. Fundamentally countries are bad for people - in some respects.

Avoid the papers, news and this thread

At the end of the day, there will be a messy compromise/deal and lengthy transition.

The UK is already slowing down and this will accelerate and probably depend the slowdown. So prepare for that scenario as you would do normally.

Other than that stay calm and carry on.

Or alternatively enjoy reading remoaner hyperbole and exaggeration as it’s much more fun than the dull reality.

All that's fine and dandy for the well educated elite. What about everyone else?

And this brings me to the crux of my irks with THM on this thread. Several of us on here fall into that first category, yet most of us see the real hurt Brexit will bring to an awful lot of people. THM on the other hand, like most of his Tory brethren stopped worrying about it the moment he worked out he'd be alright, Jack.

That's an attitude that deserves to be called out, and I won't apologise for doing so.

"This thread brings out the worst in people

Not really the same behaviour goes on on lots of threads, just different targets. Chewkw and geetee are copping a lot of it recently from same people. Jive has made a reentrance but might be getting off lightly.

X-post there’s old zokes proving you right. So ignore the above, you were correct

Zokes - there is another view that says the very people who most heavily voted for Brexit are the same that will bear the brunt on the economic fall out.
Not saying I subscribe to that view but I can see how one might.

Fundamentally countries are bad for people - in some respects

Not sure about that. Combine their benefits with FoM and things look good.

I hope my kids travel and work overseas at some point.

They may we’ll have lots of EU forms to fill in if some folks’ wishes come true.

meanwhile at the negotiations Barnier is all...

[img] [/img]

Now, now kimbers, don't be nasty to the Europeans. Their approach and demands are totally reasonable. We are the bad guys here.

we're weak, they're strong

[img] [/img]

Her husband?

Junkyard - lazarus

thanks for keep returning

I'm omnipresent.
It's the OH's cooking.

Now consider the post that compelled me to reply... 💡