Graham - globalisation has also done more to lift people out of dire poverty than any NGO ever has.
Globalisation is only bad if you're white. For those people being given jobs in Mexico, India, the Philippines etc - it's great.
[quote=jambalaya ]Smoke and Mirrors really
It might be easier if you could point out which of Maybe's pronouncements haven't been.
There will be a Parliamentary vote in both Houses on the final deal. Smoke and Mirrors really as it will be too late to change it in practical terms, also a trap for opposition parties shortly ahead of 2020 GE
Oh great. More playing at politics rather than solving real problems.
I'm still struggling to understand why you think this is such a great way of doing things and is in some way a positive democracy.
So a soft FTA!
Getting the job done Shackleton, stopping people playing petty domestic politics with leaving the EU
@aracer Brexit means Brexit, delivering on that with every word
Trump - not at the back of the QUEUE but front of the LINE (again showing that Obama's speech was a setup by Cameron)
The EU is not essentially about trade and investment - read some history and stop watching the telly . .
Tell me more please....
So that vote in 18 months - 2 years time will be hard Brexit or no Brexit then.
That's a gamble.
Getting the job done Shackleton, stopping people playing petty domestic politics with leaving the EU
You mean rather than having cross party consensus we have one party imposition? (please note I'm being party neutral, all sides need to work together to deliver this for the good of all of the UK, not just one persons/party interpretation of the views of their desired voting demographic to get reelected. This is far too important to BE A PART of domestic petty politics)
Agreed. I actually missed her comment. Did she say vote now i.e., preempt court decision or a final vote
If latter yes both a trap and a gamble
We can't get intra-party consensus let alone cross-party consensus
So she doesn't want to be part of the single market but somehow things we'll get a tariff free trade deal with the EU?
I'll have a gram of whatever she's snorting!
Brexit is a moment to allow us to focus ourselves globally, to expand our relations accross the world.
This is the kind of language that confuses me jamba.
How does [i]focusing globally[/i] and [i]expanding across the world[/i] tally up with the [b]anti-[/b]globalisation viewpoint that reportedly motivated the Leave votes?
If it is anti-globalisation then why stand at a lectern with "A Global Britain" written on it?
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Well now I'm really confused - you claim to have voted Remain, yet you think we'll be in a better position after leaving?
I like many Remain voters felt the risk wasn't worth taking - better the devil you know. Do I think we will be in a better position after leaving, no idea. There are too many unknowns, both known ones and unknown ones, for anyone to have a realistic handle on that - including Cambridge academics. However, I think it is narrow minded to say we can't end up in a better position, but there is no certainty we will. The only thing I am sure of is that people will still be arguing about it in 30 years.
Mandelson is a prime example of this narrow mindedness. He is suggesting changes to the freedom of movement rules. We tried to do that for years, we failed, time to move on. He accuses May of ducking the tough decisions, it seems to me, she has made those tough decisions, he just happens to disagree with them.
[quote=jambalaya ]@aracer Brexit means Brexit
😆 - you must have misread my request, I was after examples of things which weren't smoke and mirrors
[quote=mefty ]There are too many unknowns, both known ones and unknown ones, for anyone to have a realistic handle on that - including Cambridge academics.
Did you read their report, or are you just guessing?
May smashed it. Word perfect.
As Richard King from Sky tweeted smart to have pre-released key elements as the £ went up as she spoke.
@aracer, a bit tongue in cheek of course 🙂
@Graham well that's exactly what I always said and ditto the Leave Campaign. I don't think anyone on the Leave side is against global trade opportunities. There are plenty of Remainers who try and paint Leavers that way
Well I'm no fan of May or the Tories, but I thought it was quite a sensible well presented speech. That does't make me agree with it.
She made quite a big play about what we have to offer in terms of security, which sounds to me as though that 350m a week won't be going to the NHS (!) but to Trident and the military.
The aim is to complete Brexir discussions in 2 years but then "phase in" changes. I wonder how long that will drag on? The votes in the 2 houses could (will?) give rise and plenty of amendments.
But what I can't agree with at all is her assertion that the country is becoming united behind Brexit. That is utter nonsense.
THM - at the end I think.
She says the UK will leave the single market
UK wants bespoke free trade deal with the EU
MPs and peers to get vote on final Brexit deal
The UK is to start official process of leaving in EU in March
Trump - not at the back of the QUEUE but front of the LINE (again showing that Obama's speech was a setup by Cameron)
That's just bollocks. I was just on a conference call with non-English speakers and deliberately chose language to match the understanding of my audience. If i was in America, I'd happily ask someone if this is the end of the 'line' to make myself understood.
Tariff-free trade with the EU
Yeah, can see the EU agreeing to that one for starters.
Does Jo Coburn not understand the difference between "membership of" and "access to"?
Fallon talking nonsense now with theft of democracy - wants another referendum. Do people never learn? Imagine a referendum question covering the details of a compromise deal. Seems like he needs to take 10 deep breaths
[quote=jambalaya ]I don't think anyone on the Leave side is against global trade opportunities.
Interesting that you speak for all of them. Do we need to remind you again who you're in bed with?
There's no way May would have offered a vote if she thought she could have won at Court, ergo: she had doubts.
To play this as some kind of Churchillian master stroke is just a bit pathetic, really.
Remainer on Sky News very positive after the speech. Excited by the opportunities.
@Graham well that's exactly what I always said and ditto the Leave Campaign. I don't think anyone on the Leave side is against global trade opportunities. There are plenty of Remainers who try and paint Leavers that way
So do you reckon that the current analysis is wrong jamba?
(i.e. that Brexit and Trump votes were driven by a growing anti-globalisation movement of people who feel they have somehow missed out or been left behind on the benefits of globalisation)
[b]Or[/b] do you think that analysis is correct, but those voters are going to get the opposite of what they voted for?
[b]Or[/b] is a "Global Britain" seeking trade deals, focusing globally, and expanding across the world, a different thing from "globalisation"?
But what I can't agree with at all is her assertion that the country is becoming united behind Brexit. That is utter nonsense.
indeed, I believe she labelled me a 'citizen of knowhere'
she can kiss my butt 🙂
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Does Jo Coburn not understand the difference between "membership of" and "access to"?
Can we have a clue? Does one result in "not leaving the EU at all" (er, Norway)?
Imagine a referendum question covering the details of a compromise deal.
Yeah, what a ridiculous idea to have a referendum on something people can't possibly be expected to understand.
I was a remainer but still (reluctantly) impressed by the speech esp in relation to the claptrap that other politicians have come up with.
Nothing new. Soft FTA, but with enough areas of compromise dangled in front of our European friends. So looks like we are straddled between FTA (largely) and a CU. if you fall for the immigration is bad claptrap, then that is not a bad outcome. I would prefer FOM, so a qualified well done with making a good job of a bad lot. That's all that can be asked for now.
Interesting point raised on 5 live was when the final deal is put before Parliament and they vote against it what happens then?
On another point, my MD is based in Belgium and the general consensus is "It ain't going to be pretty"
Trump - not at the back of the QUEUE but front of the LINE (again showing that Obama's speech was a setup by Cameron)
is that a fact??
The Odious Michael Gove:
"And now we're at the front of the queue ?"
The Deplorable Donald Trump
😯"I think you're doing great, I think Its going to be great"
I think TM needs to stop saying "want" like a petulant child. She should replace want with "NEED".
That would at least signal our seriousness to the situation.
Given the post-truth phase of politics we seem to be in at the moment, I prefer to get my news from Daily Mash and similar sites as it's usually more accurate...
[i]Interesting point raised on 5 live was when the final deal is put before Parliament and they vote against it what happens then?[/I]
The same as when you mention to you wife you'd like a new car, and she suggests otherwise - and then walks outside to see it parked on the drive?
Wow - in that latest Daily Mash one, they appear to have almost given up trying to make it appear satirical.
Interesting point raised on 5 live was when the final deal is put before Parliament and they vote against it what happens then?
We drop out of the EU and default to WTO relationship at best. It's not a second referendum, it will be: "Well this is best we could come up with - do you want this or would you prefer WTO rules (which we have done no planning for)". The vote will pass overwhelmingly. And even if it didn't we'll still leave as once article 50 is triggered it's inevitable.
Will someone turn out the lights in the UK on the way out.
But I thought Jambalaya, you wanted the Exit as possible?
A bit the opposite?
We drop out of the EU and default to WTO relationship at best. It's not a second referendum, it will be: "Well this is best we could come up with - do you want this or would you prefer WTO rules (which we'll have done no planning for)". The vote will pass overwhelmingly. And even if it didn't we'll still leave as once article 50 is triggered it's inevitable.Will someone turn out the lights in the UK on the way out.
Doesn't that depend on the outcome of one of the court cases. Is article 50 reversable or not?
certainly seems to be one of the governments arguments in a different case.
Labour spokesperson on radio4 claims that May just ruled out a hard Brexit and is doing what Labour have been calling for.
Waste of space.
[i]We drop out of the EU and default to WTO relationship at best[/I]
No, you can't just default to WTO, you need to apply (and be accepted).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Organization
Accession and membershipMain article: World Trade Organization accession and membership
The process of becoming a WTO member is unique to each applicant country, and the terms of accession are dependent upon the country's stage of economic development and current trade regime. The process takes about five years, on average, but it can last longer if the country is less than fully committed to the process or if political issues interfere. The shortest accession negotiation was that of the Kyrgyz Republic, while the longest was that of Russia, which, having first applied to join GATT in 1993, was approved for membership in December 2011 and became a WTO member on 22 August 2012. Kazakhstan also had a long accession negotiation process. The Working Party on the Accession of Kazakhstan was established in 1996 and was approved for membership in 2015. The second longest was that of Vanuatu, whose Working Party on the Accession of Vanuatu was established on 11 July 1995. After a final meeting of the Working Party in October 2001, Vanuatu requested more time to consider its accession terms. In 2008, it indicated its interest to resume and conclude its WTO accession. The Working Party on the Accession of Vanuatu was reconvened informally on 4 April 2011 to discuss Vanuatu's future WTO membership. The re-convened Working Party completed its mandate on 2 May 2011. The General Council formally approved the Accession Package of Vanuatu on 26 October 2011. On 24 August 2012, the WTO welcomed Vanuatu as its 157th member. An offer of accession is only given once consensus is reached among interested parties.
It remains overwhelmingly and compellingly in Britain’s national interest that the EU should succeed.
I wonder what the best way of ensuring that happens might be. Hang on, I think I've just had an idea...
We drop out of the EU and default to WTO relationship at bestNo, you can't just default to WTO, you need to apply (and be accepted).
That was my point, if they're offering a vote, one presumes there will be a choice. There is a chance they'll drop to WTO and have done the pre-work, but I suspect it'll be 'vote for this or don't and get something as yet undefined'.
I can't believe they would give a vote on something where they have no idea what's going to happen for one of the options.
Remainer on Sky News very positive after the speech. Excited by the opportunities.
Yeah, me too - really excited by the prospect of MrsJ being only able to chat to me and her daughter by Skype. Hooray!!!!! Well done, Brexshitters!!!
