Indeed it's almost as if Putin is mocking us, he'll be leaving trails of radioactive poison across London next
Of course he could just be using really stupid violent nationalist biker gangs to do his dirty work
It's been a stupendous year for Putin, he has secured his strategic naval base in Syria, held on to Crimea and Donbask, the refugee crisis from the war has destabilised Europe the US president elect is disparaging about NATO and is installing a cabinet of russophiles and his strongest critic in the EU has voted to leave it, seriously weakening the entire institution......
MrMo I'd argue collectively all the member countries citizens would win if the EU returned to an economic community. There are many French and Italians who believe they'd be better off without the € a decent number of Germans too
Is that simply because they had to declare the cash they had hidden from the tax man and as a result a purely selfish motive.
How do you think the other [s]25[/s] [s]24[/s] [s]25[/s] member states feel?
I can think of another reason that affected many that could be cited as a negative for the Euro, but is also a selfish point of view.
French and Italians want to borrow more than euro membership allows. Italians would like to devalue too to kickstart their economy. Germans fed up with everyone over borrowing and asking for (expecting) loans to bail them out.
The italians aways want to borrow and devalue, it has never worked yet!
French and Italians want to borrow more than euro membership allows. Italians would like to devalue too to kickstart their economy. Germans fed up with everyone over borrowing and asking for (expecting) loans to bail them out.
You've confused me again, if eveyone is over borrowing, how is it that France and Italy are pissed off because they can't overborrow? Surely they're part of the everyone overborrowing group and therefore able to borrow more than Euro membership will allow. Or they can't overborrow because because the Euro membership won't allow it.
Can you make your mind up, please?
Jamba - out of interest...
...if it was to be and economic community in the future (where that is impossible or not) would that change your views on membership?jambalaya - Member
MrMo I'd argue collectively all the member countries citizens would win if the EU returned to an economic community. There are many French and Italians who believe they'd be better off without the € a decent number of Germans too
Serious question. Of course a fair number of Britons are happy not to have the euro too - I like the concept of a common currency but can't help feeling you need to go federal to make it work.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/13/urgent-brexit-deal-needed-to-avert-banking-job-losses-peers-to-warn ]lol yeah don't hold yer breath as Moe, Curly and Larry try and work out how to get their cake and eat it.[/url]
Crikey are those reminders still holding everyone back by using their crystal ball prediction scaremongering tactics? 😛
Give it up man coz planet earth is still round ... 😆
...if it was to be and economic community in the future (where that is impossible or not) would that change your views on membership?
Serious question. Of course a fair number of Britons are happy not to have the euro too - I like the concept of a common currency but can't help feeling you need to go federal to make it work.
EEC yes I always said I would support a free trade zone with no Parliament, no (very limited) budget etc - sort of a cut down EEC. We just signed up to the pan European Patents programme (ok with me), I'd have no issue with a European Court determining trade disputes.
Single currency - yes to make it work you need something close to a superstate (even with banking union it's not enough)
So, the bit that bugs you is the democratic part?
kelvin - Member
So, the bit that bugs you is the democratic part?
I thought we just voted to leave so are we going to vote again? 😛
So, the bit that bugs you is the democratic part?
The EU Parliament is not an example of effective democracy.
The italians aways want to borrow and devalue, it has never worked yet!
Actually I would say it worked well for them in the past just as it has for the Brits and Yanks recently..but that was before they put on the Euro straight jacket.
PS I am a remainer.
Possibly. But referenda certainly aren't.jambalaya - Member
The EU Parliament is not an example of effective democracy.
Hopefully not. See above.chewkw - Member
I thought we just voted to leave so are we going to vote again?
Jamba - what is undemocratic about the EU? all decision are taken either by elected members or delegates provided by elected parliaments.
No church leaders get a voice as of right. Nobody gets a voice because they are the descendents of invading french warlords. You cannot get a majority without a majority of votes. Its far more democratic than the UK parliament
As for the Italian, La Lira was always in trouble and devalued.
No change there.
Jamba - what is undemocratic about the EU? all decision are taken either by elected members or delegates provided by elected parliaments.
'Beware of the Leopard'
You can't even accuse him of being a little Englander...
Précis please ninfan. I can't be watching every clip that gets stuck up on here.
Ninfan is referring to the fact that the TTIP documents were originally only allowed to be read in an eyes-only way in a 'reading room' in Brussels, readers were heavily monitored, forbidden from speaking about them.
Later, some regional reading rooms were opened; Germany had one (IIRC), and I think the UK got one later.
All true. Whats also true is that, in the UK, may parties were in favour of it:
http://www.waronwant.org/media/ttip-and-2015-election-where-do-parties-stand
The EU Parliament is not an example of effective democracy.
Which parliament would you hold up as a shining beacon of democracy?
I think we can guess what parliament kippers want to rule Europe...
[img] 
[/img]
FFS, in the grander scheme of things, does this matter. The EU Parliament has a limited impact on our lives outside environment (generally +ve impact), agriculture and external trade. The usual Brexshit tactic of confusing twigs and trees!
[quote="slowoldman"]
Which parliament would you hold up as a shining beacon of democracy?
Holyrood ain't bad. Unicameral. mostly proportional ( all proportional systems have some disadvantages - our are High threshold for representation and some odd outcomes around marginal majorities.)
All expenses published, no buying of property on expenses, decent system of petitions being discussed in the chamber. consensus and non adversarial in design ( ruined by labour antics) ( so little corruption / revolving door to industry)
since its been established we have had representation from hard left groups, greens, pensioner activists and single issue activists as well as the usual parties.
It ain't perfect but its far more democratic than Westminster
David Davies before the House Committee on Brexit. 2hrs if you have the time. I thought it was useful to hear first hand the Q&A. I am sure there will be some newspaper coverage
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/14/letter-to-nissan-about-brexit-could-be-made-public-mps-are-told?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter ]https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/14/letter-to-nissan-about-brexit-could-be-made-public-mps-are-told?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter[/url]
so soft brexit is the plan then.
isnt the summary: a transition period is on the cards (while the fudge is setting)?
Letter reassured carmaker the government would try to secure tariff-free access to single market, says business secretary
Maybe if they went for the ability for people to travel and work in Europe too?
How could they do that?
I know, stop wasting so much money pissing about trying to get the best deal and stay in Europe you stupid F@@@@ing idiots. The rest of Europe won't play ball to any UK demands. Uk said leave so Europe says go, quickly, and close the door on the way out.
I'm in Austria and people here cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such sillyness.
it all points to a Norway model .
if so, not worth all the aggro at all - lots of crap for a worse outcome. Bravo les Brexshiteers
I'm in Austria and people here cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such sillyness.
I'll add to that list. People I've spoken to about britex, who cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such silliness, include nationals from:
France
Austria
USA
Polland
Italy
Australia
Germany
Norway
Romania
Hungary
The French were particularly incensed and said they would not visit the UK again.
The hotel I'm staying in tonight appears to have lost the Eastern European bar/restaurant staff and replaced them with Brits. The service was so poor that I might just stop using the place, I'll see what they say in the morning.
Welcome to the future.
But us British are all much smarter than foreigners, that's literally the whole point of the brexit mentality
But us British are all much smarter than foreigners, that's literally the whole point of the brexit mentality
So smart that not one wanted an electricians apprenticeship at Granada Studios recently.
fourbanger - Member
I'm in Austria and people here cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such sillyness.I'll add to that list. People I've spoken to about britex, who cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such silliness, include nationals from:
France
Austria
USA
Polland
Italy
Australia
Germany
Norway
Romania
HungaryThe French were particularly incensed and said they would not visit the UK again.
Ya, the people you have spoken to are very secluded aren't they to say such things about British voters. They only need to look at their own backyard to see themselves ... 😆
A few giggles,thanks.
Ya, the people you have spoken to are very secluded aren't they to say such things about British voters. They only need to look at their own backyard to see themselves ...
All countries have a huge section of voters who'll grab hold of nativism at all costs, but we're the laughing stock because MOST[b]*[/b] of our voters have done that. Of course, the same may well happen all over Europe soon, not that it would be any consolation to feel less alone in this.
[b]*[/b][i]Assuming that is that we're still pretending the "do right by the NHS" voters didn't exist, and weren't conned.[/i]
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-article-50-stopped-brexit-latest-select-committee-a7475231.html ]having second thoughts or just making it up as you go along ?[/url]
The leavers have got to accept - the Norway model or a soft leave is not going to happen unless the government agree free movement of people - and if they do accept free movement why bother leaving?
it gets worse for Maggie Mayhem, theres probably 80 or so Tory back benchers who not keen on the Norway option. Could get quite comical if they do get to vote on whether to invoke 50.
The leavers have got to accept - the Norway model or a soft leave is not going to happen unless the government agree free movement of people - and if they do accept free movement why bother leaving?
See it's not part of the plan, those thins TJ are called "details" and are not important. The only thing that matters is leaving the EU.
From klunk's linkIn the wide-ranging hearing, Mr Davis went on to rule out publishing Ms May’s promised plan for Brexit in January – telling MPs it would take longer to draw up.
DD freely admits they have no plan, like the longest list of homework excuses it keeps coming, the only aim is to tick the not in the EU box. Nobody has thought much further ahead, hence the desire to implement A50 ASAP, once it's done (well er maybe not sure nobody agree's - see link) then it's done and we have to move along with it and accept whatever comes out way. Makes negotiations much easier when you have nothing to do but supply your own lube.
kelvin - Member
All countries have a huge section of voters who'll grab hold of nativism at all costs, but we're the laughing stock because MOST* of our voters have done that. Of course, the same may well happen all over Europe soon, not that it would be any consolation to feel less alone in this.*Assuming that is that we're still pretending the "do right by the NHS" voters didn't exist, and weren't conned.
They just refuse to accept that the concept of EU is very near to the expiry date due to the inevitable cycle of change, but yet they hang on as if this is something new. Most of their politicians are completely out of touch with a big chunk of their own people anyway so denial is the best policy for them waving the EU flag ... blame the EU flag say them coz they are just following the EU rules. 😆
*Assuming that is that we're still pretending the "do right by the NHS" voters didn't exist, and weren't conned.
NHS is still "sustainable" for the moment but at one point this system will definitely break because it is becoming too large to manage.
… if they do accept free movement why bother leaving?
Because claims have been made that there are loads of advantages to Leaving, it's not just about immigrants, honest Guv.
NHS is still "sustainable" for the moment but at one point this system will definitely break….
People were encouraged to vote Leave to fund the NHS and save it, by people who think It should be dismantled. It is why I use the word "conned" freely as regards this, a word I normally resist using when it comes to politics.
kelvin - Member
NHS is still "sustainable" for the moment but at one point this system will definitely break….People were encouraged to vote Leave to fund the NHS and save it, by people who think It should be dismantled.
It why I use the word "conned" freely as regard this, which I normally resist using when it comes to politics.
You can blame anyone or everyone until your heart content it Will still break coz ALL are bankrupt of ideas when it comes to NHS.
This system is also near the expiry date but perhaps not as bad the EU bureaucratic system.
NHS is too large to manage so the norm is just to keep patching the system as we go coz that is the way forward. Unless someone can think of an alternative system that is not politically toxic.
it all points to a Norway model
Can we have Norway's parliament too? Or just invite them in to take over?
