IMO Nissan where promised very little and indeed Davies said today it would have been illegal to promise to compensate them for any future tariffs. What the Guardian says is that the Government was aiming for tariff free access to the single market for cars and components.
[b]The Indy piece bears very little correlation to the 2 hours of David Davies's evidence today.[/b] What Davies said is that A50 itself is quite undefined (it's not even clear how long and in what form the letter will be) but it was clear once it's triggered we would not be calling a stop to it, the electorate wanted us out of the EU by 2019 ie before the next election even if there was a transition arrangement thereafter. He reiterated he wasn't saying we would do such a transition agreement just not ruling it out.
As Davies said today people need to understand you can access tariff free markets without being a member of THE single market as defined by the EU. He made it clear there would be various important areas which would change including fisheries and agriculture (I understood this to mean there would be reduced access to UK fisheries and changes to food import/export tariffs)
There was quite a bit of discussion around the customs union, for example Turkey has customs union access for certain products and Gibralter, IOM, Jersey and Guernsey are outside the customs union.
IMO there will absolutely not be freedom of movement of people.
Davies would not be drawn on whether the plan would a white paper or something much more simple. He also said it would be published in time for Parliamentary scruitiny but not for full committee review. He said the plan would lay out a number of options but it would do nothing which would compromise the UK's negotiating position. Personally I am expecting something pretty general.
Given the press above it just reminds me it's best to listen to the actual testimony than the press write up.
EU seems to be in a real muddle. There is an EU Comission negotiator, an EU Parliament negotiator and then many amongst the 27 want to be directly involved. Draft press release from upcoming dinner is a clear attempt by the Commission to grasp control at the expense of the Parliament and member states.
the electorate wanted us out of the EU by 2019 ie before the next election even if there was a transition arrangement thereafter. He reiterated he wasn't saying we would do such a transition agreement just not ruling it out.
Extrapolation? The question was leave the EU or Stay not impose timescales.
As Davies said today people need to understand you can access tariff free markets without being a member of THE single market as defined by the EU.
Yep, though that does generally come with the acceptance of Freedom of movement
There is an EU Comission negotiator, an EU Parliament negotiator and then many amongst the 27 want to be directly involved.
It requires a qualified majority vote from the EU to accept the terms of the UK's exit. If not it's the blank page of Rest of World with no deals. All 27 should be involved in some way, if they speak through a central mouthpice then fine but they need to have their concearns addressed and met before being asked to vote on it.
Do you really believe that Jamba - that nissen were not promised large sums of compensation?
NHS isn't too large to manage, its too underfunded. Easy fix. HTH
The NHS does present a lot of complex management issues not all of which can be fixed by more funding
It's the 5th larges employer in the world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers
To manage such a diverse and complex organisation requires skill and strategy along with long term certainty. Underfunding is causing issues that will not be fixed by [b][i]simply[/i][/b] increasing funding. The funding, aims and directions need setting out and managing, an acceptance that it's a huge and complex organisation is needed.
We are working on a number of strategic projects with much smaller health organisations and even that is hard to get going. There are huge challenges around chronic illness, hospital dependancy and poor allocation of resources through nesecity rather than choice. Reform is a dirty word but it's really needed in an open and transparent framework that takes the staff with it not as an adverserial method. Whateve the outcomes bunging them a non existent $350million while removing a significant number of staff isn't going to help it.
NHS spends less on management that other european systems - even in england with its huge bureaucracy to manage the fake internal market
Lots of IMO Jambalaya.
Another official this morning saying it will take 10 years to sort out Brexit .
Yes, Sir Ivan is going very much off script. When was Independence Day again?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38324146 ]ouch thats gonna hurt[/url]
As I recall, UK spends half what the US does as a percentage of GDP, but it is the UK that enjoys better health.
No causal link of course. Honest.
Actually just to roll the hand grenade - bureaucrats better than businessmen? Discuss.
Do you think Mrs May will be singing to herself that song 'I'm so lonely..' sung by the puppet of the North Korean leader in Team America, as she sits on her own because she's been banished from the dinner party where the rest of the EU members discuss Brexit?
Ooh we're so smart with our political moves... 🙄
Ooh we're so smart with our political moves...
don't worry #dirtydiggerandchums know what's best for us. 🙄
Now I'm not agin the Norwegian model of single market access (as they ignore what they don't like) but I'm not going to be in favour of Norwegian beer prices. Well not in Free Yorkshire anyway, you metros down south way waiting for your no existent trains are already paying those prices.
Mike the people who voted Leave want out ASAP. Speak to some. I am sure the Government has done so. Corbyn called for immediate Article 50 in June.
Freedom of movement is unacceptable. Canada hasn't accepted freedom of movement. The Tories are well aware freedom of movement would be an election loser.
My point was the EU is disorganised and embroiled in a power struggle with member states wanting a deal and EU Commission desperate to protect their "pet project" and to appear in charge. We can just imagine the media frenzy around such a situation if it ocurred within the UK Brexit team.
TJ, yes based on what I heard Nissan has not been offered any money. It's a commitment to pursue free trade on cars. Personally I'd focus on traiff free trade cars and car components with Japan with their electric technology and then stick an extra 10% duty on top of 12% WTO for diesels.
Based on what you heard? really?
Nissan have the government over a barrel - the only reason they came to the UK was tariff free access and poor labour protection. You really think some vague assurance of "this is what we want" from the government was enough to make them change their mind? Not a promise that the government will make up any shortfall?
any sensible person know tariff free access is not going to happen without free movement of people
Freedom of movement is unacceptable.
On the contrary, it's both positive and a prerequisite.
Based on what you heard? really?
the only reason they came to the UK was tariff free access and poor labour protection.
I thought Nissan also appreciated the skilled and motivated workforce. Am I wrong?
Looks like a lot of people are going to be disappointed.
The Leavers are not going to get to re build the Empire and the UK Will still be linked to the EU In one form or the other.
And the Remainers won't be part of the EU.
Nice mess, well done to some selfish politicians who put their egos above the need of the people they are supposed to represent and serve.
Nissan realised that this whole Will take years to sort out. They have plenty of time to build their new model and make a decision in 5 years time.
I thought Nissan also appreciated the skilled and motivated workforce. Am I wrong?
They drive their workforce very hard indeed. They're well paid, but not mine worker well paid. At the time they moved up here there was nowt else going, shipbuilding was well on the way out and I think we were left with two mines: wearmouth and vane tempest. Sunderland airfield was a prime site with good access to the docks at Jarrow and great road links. By "skilled" I take it you mean "can assemble some duplo to a design" (the recruitment tests are pitched at that sort of level)?
Good point Chris.
Lose/lose.
Nissan realised that this whole Will take years to sort out. They have plenty of time to build their new model and make a decision in 5 years time.
And therein lies the truth. The plant is modular so not integral to the large shed it happens to sit in. It's not like a steelworks. 5 years is more than enough time to build a new shed in somewhere like Marseilles or Barcelona and move all the bits.
we could well end up in a situation where a super soft brexit is being thrown out by the hard line brexiteers (this why mrs mayhem is in the court of appeal)
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Mike the people who voted Leave want out ASAP. Speak to some.
Have done Jamba. Remarkably wide range of opinions. Yours is just one.
Others include:
I just wanted to shake things up a bit
I would never have voted leave if I thought it might happen
I didn't realise it would cost me money
The papers never told us the truth before the vote
Actually I find very few "hard Brexit asap" types.
The politicians are afraid of the press barons.
Most people I know don't seem to mind anymore.
And if you look at how many people are registered on the forum and how many people contribute to this thread, the apathy about the whole thing is obvious.
Others include:
I don't want ever closer political union
I want to make it easier to bring immigrants in from Commonwealth countries
I want us to show the EU we are serious about wanting reform
I want us to fund our NHS instead of sending money to Brussels
I want all the Eastern Europeans to go home
I want to show the government who's boss
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38324146
Meanwhile, UK Brexit Secretary David Davis told MPs on Wednesday that the UK's Brexit plan was still being worked on and a lot of research had to be done before it was ready.
Perhaps it would have been more responsible to do this [i]before[/i] putting it to a vote?
Just a thought.
They can have as long a wish list as they like. Most of what the leavers wish for is simply not possible. We have no bargaining chips
alice in wonderland again
They can have as long a wish list as they like.
The point is, they all have different, and contradictory, lists, but some seem to lack the political nouse to realise this, or more likely, realise it but dare not admit it. Those Leavers who say that all Leave voters want the same things to happen as a result of the "win" are either myopic or deceitful.
And strangely enough, the winners will be the ones loosing more.
Go you!
Heard from David Davies yesterday.
I am sure Mrs May is delighted to be able to skip the dinner and return home. The meeting is a 1 day affair with the dinner tacked on at the end and being used to discuss EU's stance on Brexit. Mrs Kay will hold a press conference after the days business.
And therein lies the truth. The plant is modular so not integral to the large shed it happens to sit in. It's not like a steelworks. 5 years is more than enough time to build a new shed in somewhere like Marseilles or Barcelona and move all the bits.
I seem to remember one of those fascist newspapers we have claiming that Jaguar/Landrover are going to stay in the UK. They are for now, but not without a back up plan in the form of a brand new factory currently being built in the Czech republic.
@Squidlord indeed, thats why we where so glad to see the back of Cameron and Osbourne. Also from Davies's perspective saying they where "still working on it" is the perfect excuse for leaving publication until late February a few weeks before A50
@igm people voted Leave to end freedom of movement (amongst other things).
an admission that prominent Leavers like him didnt have a clue what they intended to do if they won, because it was all about ego....from Davies's perspective saying they where "still working on it" is [s]the perfect excuse[/s]
what a sad way to drag down a country 🙁
Have done Jamba. Remarkably wide range of opinions. Yours is just one.Others include:
I just wanted to shake things up a bit
I would never have voted leave if I thought it might happen
I didn't realise it would cost me money
The papers never told us the truth before the voteActually I find very few "hard Brexit asap" types.
Others include:
I don't want ever closer political union
I want to make it easier to bring immigrants in from Commonwealth countries
I want us to show the EU we are serious about wanting reform
I want us to fund our NHS instead of sending money to Brussels
I want all the Eastern Europeans to go home
I want to show the government who's boss
This is my experience too.
My brother in law (and many of his police colleagues according to him) voted leave as they were angry with Theresa May and though the police would have more money, so more money in their pockets, if they were not sending it to Europe.
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[url= https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/15/female-mp-received-death-threats-for-calling-for-ban-on-britain-first ]welcome to Brexit britain[/url]
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/britons-expats-europe-how-brexit-affect-them
and just to throw into the mix
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/15/breitbart-fake-news-right-trump
If the media no longer tells the truth, what hope is there for a functioning democracy?
this is the fear of Leavers
and the reason they want a swift Brexit
once it becomes apparent that the 'negotiations' will be unable to deliver the ridiculous plethora of promises that VL used....
end immigration
more money for services, NHS, ploice, councils, social care, libraries,
more trade
better jobs
higher wages
not being told uncomfortable truths by johnny foreigner
ending the nebulous and pervasive fear of terrorist attacks somehow conflated with EU membership
the right-wing press no longer telling us every day how the EU is ruining their lives
more money in their pockets, better life chances for their kids
Brexit will deliver none of these (infact mostly the opposite) and then people might start to change their mind
after all this is a democracy- you're allowed to- this is what brexiters fear most
May & the Brexiters somehow have to pull it all off before people realise their lives wont be improving
Whenever I hear a report on the news about Brexit and how someone is pointing out the difficulties ahead... they always have a pro Brexit spokesperson disagreeing...this happens so often now all I can visualise is a group of Brexiteers with their fingers in their ears going "mah nah nah..I can't hear you..nah nah nah..I can't hear you".
Clearly the Brexit camp don't believe listening is an important skill in successful negotiations. 😀
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38328388http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38328388 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38328388[/url]
but wasn't the devaluation of the pound meant to be good?
and yes Brexit wasn't the whole picture, just the final straw that broke the company.
@el-bent Ford moved their Transit factory from Southampton to Turkey our EU membership made zero difference. Jaguar/Landrover would have to think about brand impact of being made in the Czech Republic.
Jambalaya, sorry, I was unclear. I meant before a referendum.
For example UKIP has been going for what, 26 years? And didn't generate any practical ideas during this time.
Vote Leave also had no real plan for what should happen next.
All the politicians involved went into this with an extremely cavalier attitude, and we may be paying the price for this for years
Whenever I hear a report on the news about Brexit and how someone is pointing out the difficulties ahead... they always have a pro Brexit spokesperson disagreeing...this happens so often now all I can visualise is a group of Brexiteers with their fingers in their ears going "mah nah nah..I can't hear you..nah nah nah..I can't hear you".
I think this is actually a problem and i am not sure how to deal with it. IF you see coverage of climate change on the BBC, there always try to be impartial by having a denier. Problem is that how do you show a contra position when the majority of those who matter (experts) believe that climate change is real. Should you even acknowledge the contra position??? But that then opens another door, censorship.
Jaguar/Landrover would have to think about brand impact of being made in the Czech Republic.
i doubt there would be any, where are "German" BMWs made?
The reason for no plan / detail is that the rightwingers responsible for this want things that they know are unpalatable to most of the population - like reduced worker and environmental protection. thing is the EU is never going to allow us to undercut them by making stuff cheaper by doing this
Edenvalley Remoaning headlines are worth big ££££ in clickbait. As I said Airbus laid off 1100 people, just 59 in UK. Had we had the 500 layoffs each of France and Germany there would be a Remoaners w@nkfest
BTW did anyone see after agreeing some modest relief for Greece (ie even lower interest rates) the Greeks responded with a Christmas bonus for low income pensioners. As a result the eurozone cancelled the debt relief immediately. The press reiterated that significant debt relief (ie writing off whatvwas due) was politically inpossible for Germany. It's incredible that they won't admit publically what anyone with half a brain knows those "loans" where a giant gift.
It is no use moaning about Brexit until the idea of brexit as a solution to our problems is replaced by something else.
We don't need to disprove it or argue against it as that tends to just make people more set in their ways however illogical. Once the human mind has took in a concept such as religion or Brexit it is very hard for it to be removed as it is the basis of a world view and the brain cannot cope with the hole that is left if it was taken away. The only way to get over Brexit is to create something different and keep repeating it until it becomes the new truth.
I listened to a interesting program about Hitler and how one of the most destructive ideologies that he had was that of destroying states and existing political structures due to the chaos that follows. [url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/hitlers-world-may-not-be-so-far-away ]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/hitlers-world-may-not-be-so-far-away[/url]
I can see why this appeals to the Neo-cons whom I see as the source of the Brexit/Trump political movement. Revolutionary in nature where one has to destroy everything before it is built up again in perfection.
