[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

We're all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise.

It takes more than 10 mins to knock up a free trade agreement, what happens before they do?

Plus any organisation that is so resistant to change or the renegotiation of terms as the EU appears to be is one that is not worth being a part of.

Its not resistant to change its just resistant to doing what we want when everyone else wants somethign else. we are the noisy stubborn one at the table who wants to play a different game then say they are resistant to change when they point out we all agreed to do this.

We're such a huge export market for mainland EU that we'd still trade freely

Think of a divorce then argue nothing will change afterwards as they still need you because you are so important. Factor in we just took away a large pot of money from them and told them to **** off after they changed the rules to get us to stay and then remember they are 5 x the size we are. You really think we will be the ones dictating terms?

we can clearly both live without each other and it seems unlikely they will go yes leave, annoy us, take your money but no here of course you can have all the economic benefits of free trade without any costs as you are just too important to us please dont go we need you please etc

Really why do folk thing this will happen ?

@ wrecker
clearly trade will be affected and negatively. the only thing worth discussing is for how long and how we can ameliorate the impact
FWWI i dont think economics is the only factor its ok to cry freedom and just leave but dont pretend it wont cost on the short to medium term

I was teasing really but obviously I can't explain how it would go any more than you or anyone else can. We're all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise

the "guess" is at how bad it will be not if it will be negative.

Junkyard - lazarus
Its not resistant to change its just resistant to doing what we want when everyone else wants somethign else. we are the noisy stubborn one at the table who wants to play a different game then say they are resistant to change when they point out we all agreed to do this.

There is nothing wrong with being the noisy stubborn one.

We are who we are.

We either play your game or we get out or force you to play a different game. Simple.

We should not be ashamed of who we are after all we are happy as who we are.

Junkyard - lazarus
I Laugh each time i read this. WHy would anyone think this?Its amazes that folk think this is true. Its arrogant twaddle. It keeps getting repeated on here with no evidence to support it ...

The logic dictates that EU is a rich market and a closer one to BritLand physically but the the world is not just EU ... what a bunch of sorry arse that think EU is important. Look east ...

I can't explain how it would go any more than you or anyone else can. We're all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise.

Much as I share your scepticism of the 'science' of economics, It's not really guessing is it? It doesn't take an economic genius to work out that if you make something more expensive, then the amount of it happening is very likely to reduce. Even if what you say is true, are you really suggesting we take the risk of leaving even though we have no idea of what might happen?

We either play your game or we get out or force you to play a different game. Simple.

We should not be ashamed of who we are after all we are happy as who we are.

mikewsmith - Member

We either play your game or we get out or force you to play a different game. Simple.
We should not be ashamed of who we are after all we are happy as who we are.

Who's game? is this the ZM's game or ours in terms of being us as in a bunch of people who don't agree?

Why is the euro sceptic xenophobic view a good one? Maybe UK would be better properly integrated into the EU.

There you go again ...

Not all foreigners like each other and not all of them like to live together.

[b]There is Nothing wrong with NOT liking someone else so long as you don't machete them for no reasons. [/b]

Just because they don't like each other does not mean they are xenophobic. They are simply just not compatible either in their lifestyle, religion or belief etc ...

They just don't like each other so why force them?

Who has made you the god to think for others?

It doesn't take an economic genius to work out that if you make something more expensive then the amount of it happening is very likely to reduce.

are you really suggesting we take the risk of leaving even though we have no idea of what might happen?

We don't know if anything will get more expensive.

We really do know free trade makes things cheaper than not having free trade. Free is always cheaper that not free

It's not a forgone conclusion.

Trying to scaremonger by shouting that the EU will do their best to **** us is....scaremongering and nothing more.

You are right we cannot know for certain what will happen but even the most anti EU of UKIP want to keep the free trade so I think its fair to say everyone [ except you] accepts its loss will make things worse.

It really is preposterous to think we can leave tell them to **** off remove our money [ after they changed to get us to stay] and then they will just go yes of course you can keep all the benefits of free trade at no cost to yourself and with a non harmonised market as we need you. It wont happen it has no chance of happening and its naive to argue otherwise. All we can do is ask how bad this affects us as trade with the EU will clearly be impaired if we leave - if this was nto the case everyone could leave as nothing would happen

Just because they don't like each other does not mean they are xenophobic. They are simply just not compatible either in their lifestyle, religion or belief etc..

?

even with him blocked his patois is unmistakable and his logic still non existent

kelvin - Member

Just because they don't like each other does not mean they are xenophobic. They are simply just not compatible either in their lifestyle, religion or belief etc..

?

Just trying to double take on ... there is no shame if you don't like someone different from you so long as you don't machete them for no reasons.

You just don't cross path.

In other part of the world where there are multiple tribes/races/religions/cultures etc they just live side by side but they don't like each other that well yet they don't kill each other.

Do you get it? If you don't get it then stay out of the path like we do and not get involved in other cultures etc ...

Junkyard - lazarus
even with him blocked his patois is unmistakable and his logic still non existent

So you said you were not English (what are you then?) ... now apply that scenario to my logic ... You see? You see? You see what I mean the evidence is right infront of you.

Told you ...

We don't know if anything will get more expensive. It's not a forgone conclusion.

Yes, it is. I was previously resigned to the fact that the stupid and myopic people in this country will vote to leave, but if this is going to be the level of the pro-leave argument I'm feeling much better about it.

Consider this. If the UK leaves, and the rest of the EU wants to prevent other countries following us, do you think they will allow the UK to continue to receive the main benefits of being a member?

Junkyard - lazarus

We don't know if anything will get more expensive.

We really do know free trade makes things cheaper than not having free trade. Free is always cheaper that not free

Absolutely rubbish! Really ... that's rubbish talk. You are talking out of your arse!
You are "business guru" now are you while also the lefty propaganda mouthpiece ...
I think you are liking your own sounds now aren't you.

Go do more studies in that subject before trying to speak of such nonsense.

"[b]Free is always cheaper that not free.[/b]" <- WTF! 😆

Are you trying to outdo me? 😆

[b]It's like saying "holding fart in is better than not holding fart in"[/b]

Obvious is obvious ...

Oh ya .. answer my question if you are not English what are you? Simple.

Its is really is if we leave we really do leave the free trade area. We then need to negotiate to [free]trade with them. WHat do you think will happen at this point?

No one in their right minds would give up their own rights unless they have sinister intentions.

Consider this. If the UK leaves, and the rest of the EU wants to prevent other countries following us, do you think they will allow the UK to continue to receive the main benefits of being a member?

I doubt they'll even notice. They've got more pressing problems to deal with.

I doubt we'll notice either. Some political fudging will take place and it'll be business as normal.

Perhaps you could negate the actual point made rather than making up an argument and defeating that?

I doubt they'll even notice.

I'm rather confused. Either we're so important that they'll be begging for us to continue trading with them on preferential terms, or they won't notice us leaving? Which is it?

Anyone stuck all our in/out/shake it all about results on a spreadsheet and produced some nice graphs yet?

If not, is disappoint 😀

I'm rather confused. Either we're so important that they'll be begging for us to continue trading with them on preferential terms, or they won't notice us leaving? Which is it?

Nothing much will change.

* you are conflating different posters by the way, which might explain your confusion

as one of the biggest economies in the EU few companies can afford not to do business here.

Keep repeating it often enough and it might become true. 🙄

You could at least try to back up your opinions with some sort of reasoned argument, instead of just saying 'la la la la! You're just scaremongering!'. Why will businesses trade with UK companies when they can trade elsewhere within the EU and save money?

I wish I could choose my customers. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

Seriously? You have not backed up your own argument at all! Why on earth should I back up mine?

Why will businesses trade with UK companies when they can trade elsewhere within the EU and save money?

Do you understand capitalism?

I understand it enough to recognise that if something is more expensive then customers will look for cheaper options and go elsewhere when* they find them. You and 5thElement appear to be suggesting that EU businesses will be forced to trade with UK companies irregardless of price.

*not if. One of the other aspects of capitalism I understand is that it is very good at filling supply holes where demand exists.

No, I'm saying nothing will change. Hence the prices will be the same.

If you want to prove us wrong vote no and cross your fingers.

I couldn't care less if we leave or not. Nothing will change...

Junkyard-please explain the below given that all those selfish tory go getters will not be able purchase their BMW's and Audi's. I was under the impression that the collective trade balance was all on the rest of Europe's side. Being a bit difficult in trade deals works two ways when you are the target market.

"Its is really is if we leave we really do leave the free trade area. We then need to negotiate to [free]trade with them. WHat do you think will happen at this point?"

I should point out that our company is a manufacturer and an exporter so britex could be an issue, so I'd like your view not a rant :-).

You and 5thElement appear to be suggesting that EU businesses will be forced to trade with UK companies irregardless of price.

the pro EU lot are trying to scare everyone by dangling the economy carrot.

No we said that it wont remain the same when we leave. Pretend the argument other than this does you a disservice and its still a straw man. its not what was said.

I don't believe a word, there are bilateral agreements

Why not look at the agreements other European countries have *

and even if not, as one of the biggest economies in the EU few companies can afford not to do business here.

Making trading more difficult/expensive would be cutting their nose off to spite their face.

Really you think we withdraw from the free trade club and all it entails and they say yes fine keep trading no change there fellas. ? Really!!!!!Again why dont they all leave then as it wont make any difference . Honestly I am just shaking my head that anyone thinks this its ludicrous.

Can we pull out of Nato , not pay and still get the protection because we have a big army and some nukes so they need us.
I still cannot understand why anyone can think this is even a likely scenario the only question is how much will it cost and what will the impact

* The EEA is based on the same "four freedoms" as the European Community: the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital among the EEA countries. Thus, the EEA countries that are not part of the EU enjoy free trade with the European Union. Also, '[t]he free movement of persons is one of the core rights guaranteed in the European Economic Area (EEA) ... [i]t is perhaps the most important right for individuals, as it gives citizens of the 30 EEA countries the opportunity to live, work, establish business and study in any of these countries.'[55]
As a counterpart, these countries have to adopt part of the Law of the European Union. However they also contribute to and influence the formation of new EEA relevant policies and legislation at an early stage as part of a formal decision-shaping process.[6]
Agriculture and fisheries are not covered by the EEA. Not being bound by the Common Fisheries Policy is perceived as very important by Norway and Iceland, and a major reason not to join the EU. The Common Fisheries Policy would mean giving away fishing quotas in their waters. They also want to be outside the Common Agriculture Policy, because it means that countries pay fairly much money based on GDP, which subsidise agriculture, which Norway and Iceland do not have so much of.
The EEA countries that are not part of the EU do not bear the financial burdens associated with EU membership, although they contribute financially to the European single market. After the EU/EEA enlargement of 2004, there was a tenfold increase in the financial contribution of the EEA States, in particular Norway, to social and economic cohesion in the Internal Market (€1167 million over five years). Non-EU countries do not receive any funding from EU policies and development funds.

As you can see its pretty much like being in the EU but with less say and many of those things are the reasons some of us want to leave. We wont be accepting free movement of people will we so how can we negotiate with them?

Edit: deleted my post, as this thread is full of dead ends.

We wont be accepting free movement of people will we...

An out vote isn't a vote for Ukip. The same pro-Eu regime will be in place.

Neither of us have suggested anything of the sort.

You both deny that anything will change with regard to the cost of EU businesses dealing with the UK following brexit. The question you haven't answered is why the EU would continue to grant the UK the benefits of membership following our departure. All you've come up with is 'we're too big to ignore', or conversely in 5thElephant's case, 'they won't notice'.

Junkyard-please explain the below given that all those selfish tory go getters will not be able purchase their BMW's and Audi's. I was under the impression that the collective trade balance was all on the rest of Europe's side. Being a bit difficult in trade deals works two ways when you are the target market.

I am not sure what will happen beyond it not being exactly like it is now [ and trade with the EU impaired to some level] as they need us. They are bigger than us and pissed off what do you think will happen?

Why do folk think we can leave a club then negotiate all the benefits without the membership costs and with different nicer terms for us and worse for them?
Not a rant but I am just repeating myself

or conversely in 5thElephant's case, 'they won't notice'.

The UK contributes much more than it receives too, about €4.7bn more

Also the cost imvolved in moving offices every month. The €114 million a year 'travelling circus' I think it's known as, why do they insist on this?

I'm not really bothered if we're in or out.

I prefer my 'Business will continue as usual due to mutual interests'

If this is true [its not] then there was never any need for a free trade agreement as it was happening anyway and the whole EU could stop tomorrow and nothing would happen. Its not that convincing as an argument.

I think there's a compelling argument to say it's too late to leave as we're so heavily integrated.

Which if we do leave leads to what I'm suggesting. You have to frigg it so we've only left in name.

But, we're all guessing (despite some people pretending otherwise).

I prefer my 'Business will continue as usual due to mutual interests'.

If it were up to the businesses, you might have a point, but it's not is it? It's up to governments, and if the EU wishes to remain intact and avoid other large countries leaving, then they will make the obvious decision to demonstrate that leaving the EU comes at a cost. Instead of maintaining the status quo, it's far more likely that they will seek to make an example out of the UK to prevent further destabilisation. And they have form on this, you only have to look to Greece to see their willingness to turn the screw when it's required.

Somebody, please, I beg you, write a blocker for iOS.

Sorry, I just don't buy into the all powerful European superstate intent on laying waste to the UK. It's fantasy (whichever side is suggesting it).

Do you want threads or people blocked?

we're all guessing

I wasn't going to bother, but if we both vote no maybe one of us can glory in their powers of prediction.

laying waste to the UK

Who's talking about that? I'm talking about the imposition of modest trade tariffs of a small-ish percentage, which even though small will give a significant competitive advantage to EU business over UK businesses which will result in the UK economy contracting. As JY says, the question is by how much, not whether it will happen. You obviously think they will be charitable, but present no evidence or argument to back it up other than wishful thinking.

Businesses dictating ransom terms to the nation? Those business should be boycotted or worst case target their top executives. That will learn them for trying to stick their head out ...

Any business that requires subsidies to be an ongoing concern is just not a business but merely sucking up public funds for their own salary. A bit like bail out without having to pay back and only to secure the top management salary.

DrJ - Member
Somebody, please, I beg you, write a blocker for iOS.

Junkyard - lazarus

we're all guessing

To some degree this is true but the status quo will remain and nothing will change as we are so big they cannot lose us is clearly amongst the least likely outcomes. Its practically a fairy tale.

You are always contradicting yourself? Are you confused or deliberately trying to confuse?

If you are unsure of the outcome then why keep banging on the biases?

What makes you so sure you are right?

What is your logic apart from increasing the population and trying to destroy the borders?

What is your true intention?

😯

I could but I enjoy most of the contributions, even those I disagree with. It is only spoiled by the garbage spouted by a couple of nitwits.

Some people have certain standards to maintain.

DrJ - Member
I could but I enjoy most of the contributions, even those I disagree with. It is only spoiled by the garbage spouted by a couple of nitwits.

You have another choice. Do not read or participate in the thread.

Nobody force you at gun point to read them nor to contribute.

How hard can that be?

What have you learned from your PhD during those years that could disable your ability to present your critical thoughts? 🙄

slowoldman - Member
Some people have certain standards to maintain.

[b]slowoldman Does Not mean a wise old man.[/b]

My grandpa was an oldman but we (everyone in the family with respect) called him stubborn old fool, my grandma called him a pervert and his children called him communist.

edit: slowoldman - so far you have been impartial and if I can remember only showed your true self twice but I think you are getting caught up with some biases on this forum ...

You both deny that anything will change with regard to the cost of EU businesses dealing with the UK following brexit.

The question you haven't answered is why the EU would continue to grant the UK the benefits of membership following our departure.

On another note, I don't get why some delicate people take it so personally and get all emotional. It's a discussion, people are expessing opinions. If they don't like the fact that some have views that don't align with their own, I would respectfully suggest that they avoid contentious threads, or even better avoid forums altogether. Not every thread can be a STW circle jerk.

On another note, I don't get why some delicate people take it so personally and get all emotional. It's a discussion, people are expessing opinions.

No ones getting emotional, apart from maybe one person who everyone ignores anyway. Funny that you suggest people don't take part when your entire position seems to be 'I don't know and neither do you, so anything anyone says is irrelevant'.

I can't deny that the UK would be hurt more than any other single EU member state if they don't, but everyone will be negatively affected.

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On another note, I don't get why some delicate people take it so personally and get all emotional. It's a discussion, people are expessing opinions. If they don't like the fact that some have views that don't align with their own, I would respectfully suggest that they avoid contentious threads, or even better avoid forums altogether. Not every thread can be a STW circle jerk.

Has anyone taken it personally on this thread?

In!

junkyard - are you telling me that the EU members will act as one to penalize our trade? My experience of EU CEN committees (and Euro trade bodies) has constantly been that individual countries representatives act for themselves (commercial interests) and their country second and the greater EU good after who decides on the type of biscuits. What I am saying is though your point is valid regarding loss of trade due to us leaving EU only with some memberstates. However never underestimate the ability of certain countries or commercial entities (as EU speak calls companies) to say one thing while(doing another) ensuring that sales will not drop.
A good example of this is Germany and some of it's bigger companies like Siemens or EoN who would suffer. Perhaps take BMW, a double figure portion of their profits are made in the UK alone. I suspect they'll be having a word with Mrs Merkel if she blocks our insignificant to them exports, thus jeopardizing their massive exports to the UK. Many companies in the UK now are part of Europe wide groups, the commercial ramifications would be very difficulty's.
So my point is the rest of the EU is highly likely not to act together on exports from the UK. It will be tough though if we did not have the right politicians to make the point should the vote go the out way. At the moment we seem not to have a political leader who could lead the country out of a soggy paper bag. Well Sturgeon could be she is a EU supporter without question.
My view is that the UK will be allowed to remain in the EU free trade zone, thus having to conform to all the directives and EU legislation while be forced to pay tuppence apeny less than we paid as members. Like Norway but worse but with further added cash payments.

Edit spelling again (Burnage High School for the thick)

It takes more than 10 mins to knock up a free trade agreement, what happens before they do?

This is another reason why we won't leave regardless of the vote.

Clearly after a 'leave' vote we need to renegotiate a ton of treaties before we can practically leave.

How long is it going to take to do that? 5, 10, 20 years? We could enter a perpetual state of 'leaving soon' until a future govt had another referendum to get a 'stay in' result.

I thought the same about Scottish independence. Its not clear why there would ever be agreement on the things that needed be agreed.

Leaving a union isn't the same as never having been in it.

clearly it will take time but the govt wont be able to delay or they will be voted out at the election for one that will do it and leave- given folk just voted to leave they will expect to leave and electrorally hammer anyone who fails to deliver. The govt will look beyond weak.

I see no evidence to suggest a vote to leave means we wont ever leave. Its more unlikely than they will let us have free trade as they need us. Its so unlikely I am not going to discuss it

IMHO about 2 years to leave though I am sure we could do it in three months if we really wanted to. Its not like anyone could stop us.

the govt wont be able to delay or they will be voted out at the election

The UK govt will only be 50pc of the negotiations. I see no reason why the EU would be in any hurry at all to apply effort to drawing up new trade agreements to hasten Britain's departure.

And that assumes genuine agreement is easy.

What happens when. The EU want to charge us 10 billion for free trade but we think free trade is worth 7.5 billion? Which side is going to compromise and why? (Numbers made up to demonstrate the point).

How long is it going to take to do that? 5, 10, 20 years? We could enter a perpetual state of 'leaving soon' until a future govt had another referendum to get a 'stay in' result.

Fantasy land. Honestly, I'm trying to respond to this stuff sensibly but you guys aren't making it easy. So even though we vote to leave, we won't, the rest of Europe will be so desperate for us to stay they'll maintain our preferential status until at some point in the medium term, we decide to rejoin. Whilst all this is going on, nothing will change and it'll be like nothing ever happened. 😆

I imagine we stop paying and continue to free trade and force them to reach an agreement

whatever happens it wont be a 10-20 year stand off.

Clearly any negotiation will be tense and difficult but some agreement will be reached.

The EU want to charge us 10 billion for free trade but we think free trade is worth 7.5 billion? Which side is going to compromise and why?

Why on earth would the EU compromise in this situation?

dazh - Member
No ones getting emotional, apart from maybe one person who everyone ignores anyway.

I supposed that must be me! Woohoo! 😆

I am here to open up the arguments i.e. a different way of looking at the same things coz you lot are either predictable or boring.

I may not have all the statistical information on me but all you got to do is follow my logic to investigate things for yourself. Try it then be critical of the information you get ... you will be surprised what you will fine. Not everything is seen as it is ...

No, I am here to ask for your approval nor to please or to suck up ... Nope!

This is a "public forum" and I ain't posting to reply to you but open all to the critical views of the whole world!

You might prefer not to understand me but others will ... 😀

Hellooo! This is interweb! 😆

edit: I like BritLand ways of side swiping their opponent(s) or giving the the cold shoulder/send them to Coventry (used to live there) etc ... very funny that. Only in BritLand I see that. In other part of the world they go ape shite chopping each other to pieces ...

EU referendum ... The way to vote.

[b]Vote Out [/b]

Four simple factors to consider:

[b]Power [/b]- you will be better off in charge of you own destiny - you can scream and kick the politicians right at your doorsteps as you wish in the UK. But if you have EU bureaucrats you will have to spend a lot of money traveling to their place of residence to protest ... they might not even understand you as they are speaking in different languages.

[b]The economy argument[/b] - only affect the rich, the one that squandered state money, the ones waiting for handouts, the corporation or organisation that have no intention of helping the local people (now they are threatening the nation to dis-invest), those businesses that depend a lot on subsidies but by their own have no profit (failed business model).

[b]The security argument[/b] - Nato is there and you will still help your neighbours.

[b]The boarder control[/b] - That's what passport is meant for. Use your passport!

The rest of the arguments are just very fine details that will confuse you ... try not to be side steps by the details coz they are to confuse.

Inners : "There's no way the EU would let us have free trade if we vote out!"

Outers : "We are such a big export market for Germany and France that they would have to agree to free trade"

I can't see how one side or the other can be so sure they are right.

ctk - Member

Inners : "There's no way the EU would let us have free trade if we vote out!"

Outers : "We are such a big export market for Germany and France that they would have to agree to free trade"

I can't see how one side or the other can be so sure they are right.

[b]Hence the economy argument is unsustainable.[/b] Because business will adjust accordingly due to the attraction of the £, EURO and $ dangling in front of them. Any business that complains about this or that because they know they cannot have an easy ride and some of their competitors will over take them.

[b]The entire argument is about Power.

Control or be controlled.[/b]

The rest are just information to confuse.

Definitely Leave, Cameron isn't even asking for the right or even remotely significant changes. We will be much better off out, the EU will sign any trade deal we want as we spend £60bn (?) more with them than they do with us. We'll savs billions on EU funding, be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon etc, cut politican numbers and take back control of our own destiny instead of being drawn further into the EU superstate. Almost everything the EU has touched from border control, tax, euro and foreign policy has been an unmitigated disaster. All this and they want more inckuding an Army FFS.

Have signed up to Vote Leave, made an initial donation and will be doing some volunteering canvassing / stall manning. Like the Scottish Referendum this will be a once in a lifetime opportunity, we'll almost certInly never be asked again.

Will catch up on all the posts here when I get more connectivity tomorrow or Thursday.

in, personally and professionally.

be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon et

you are surely joking??

http://www.eurolabour.org.uk/tory-ukip-meps-eu-proposals-tax-dodging

Like the Scottish Referendum this will be a once in a lifetime opportunity,

unless we do leave and scotland decides to leave the UK....

the EU will sign any trade deal we want as we spend £60bn (?) more with them than they do with us.

You cannot get a divorce then cherry pick the bits you wont to keep because they cannot cope without you.

We'll savs billions on EU funding, be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon

* I am sure both sides will want trade to remain but thinking the UK can dictate to the EU is like thinking Scotland could have dictated to the rUK

It's really frustrating. I'm naturally an internationalist/pro european person but this particular EU is shit frankly. So it's more or less deciding which option I dislike less.

I think a couple of folks have said it already but the greek crisis basically said to me the EU is ****ed. Not the euro, not the parliament, but the entire game. Watching the big powers brutalise a small player just to provide an example and keep everyone in their place, that's not a union. Can Britain in the EU influence that? TBH I doubt it. All of the major powers seem intent on making things worse not better, and all we want to do is fiddle with trivial details in the most parochial way. The only time we take any leadership is to do something crap.

"We'll savs billions on EU funding, be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon"

I just laughed at that . The notion that the Tories want to high tax and Europe is stopping them is so poor its not even a jambyfact its just a lie. No one thinks this is really the cause.

The disadvantage of blocking jamba is that I probably tend to miss LOL moments like that.

[quote=Northwind spake unto the masses, saying]It's really frustrating. I'm naturally an internationalist/pro european person but this particular EU is shit frankly. So it's more or less deciding which option I dislike less.
I think a couple of folks have said it already but the greek crisis basically said to me the EU is ****ed. Not the euro, not the parliament, but the entire concept. Watching the big powers brutalise a small player just to provide an example and keep everyone in their place, that's not a union. Can Britain in the EU influence that? TBH I doubt it. All of the major powers seem intent on making things worse not better, and all we want to do is fiddle with trivial details in the most parochial way. The only time we take any leadership is to do something crap.

This.

I have personally benefited enormously from the freedom to work etc in the EU, but I really hesitate to vote "in" for the reasons you list.

The disadvantage of blocking jamba is that I probably tend to miss LOL moments like that.

I am hoping he replies with an appeal to his own authority

be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon etc

Even for you Jam this is risible. You are aware that just recently the UK government sold out to Google on this issue and about a week later the EU government is proposing closing the evasion loopholes?

This is the total opposite of what you've suggested. Even if you secretly thought the opposite, saying it now given these two news articles shows absolutely hopeless understanding of the public debate. Are you actually George Osborne?

A key benefit of the EU is that it forms a much larger bloc than the individual countries. So whilst Google &co can play us off against each other by claiming turnover in a lower tax jurisdiction, that's harder to pull off if there are EU wide rules to stop it. The EU as a whole is a huge market for any multinational company, far bigger than the UK.

jambalaya - Member

Have signed up to Vote Leave, made an initial donation and will be doing some volunteering canvassing / stall manning.

So now its finally revealed who's funding UKIP. Cheers!

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😆

unless we do leave and scotland decides to leave the UK....

🙄 How many times?

How many times?

As many as it takes.

32?

[quote=ninfan spake unto the masses, saying]unless we do leave and scotland decides to leave the UK....

How many times?

Just once, but it may take many votes to get there, a bit like the Irish vote for the Lisbon Treaty.

We will be much better off out,

Says someone who is married to/living with French lady, works for a company that has offices in Paris (are you still in Paris Jamby?) and does business all over the world. Cut off your nose to spite your face.

I can find many flaws with the EU, mainly the lack of eurobonds despite a European central bank and an uneven economic playing field. However on a personal level I value the rights and freedoms its given me.

I'm in either way, but can't vote.

If all the immigrants left the UK, and all the UK ex-pats came back, there'd be more people here.

It's really frustrating. I'm naturally an internationalist/pro european person but this particular EU is shit frankly. So it's more or less deciding which option I dislike less.

I think a couple of folks have said it already but the greek crisis basically said to me the EU is ****ed. Not the euro, not the parliament, but the entire game

Very true, which is why I feel so frustrated by the current false debate. Cameron's reforms (to scratch a broken record further) are a complete sideshow. The idea of a June/July referendum is totally absurd as we have no real idea on what we are saying yes/no to.

It is breath-taking dishonesty to suggest otherwise.

Merkel is the arch compromiser/pragmatist and he attitude towards the UK lends some support to Jamba's view (roughly) on we all need each other. We do, and/but as we see now, we must do everything we can to avoid protectionism and isolationism. History tells us the folly of such approaches but the hyperbole around migrants shows how dangerous a threat that is.

All a buggers muddle. |But we should wait for the genuine questions:

1. Which countries are ready and able to from a monetary, fiscal and political union (and possibly share a common currency? [its not the current lot BTW]
2. Of those, who wants to?
3. For the rest, how do you want to interact with the core, with each other and with the RoW?

IMO - there is a very small number that qualify for (1), even if we do we (2) don't want to, so it comes down to (3)

Unfortunately, the EU prefers to kick cans down the road (as Greece/EU banks and their NPLs etc illustrate only too well). so when will we be bale to have a proper referendum with a sensible question?

The answer - manana, demain, tomorrow....

In.

On cue, see that FR and De calling for greater fiscal union and common Treasury this morning. They are correct and it works for THEM.

Some of you do have a very low opinion of British people to take charge of their own destiny don't you?

You would rather prefer to relinquish your own independence to bunch of bureaucrats than to govern independently. There are some very strong self interests here partly because many have connection to Europe mainland in whatever forms ...

I will also see tactical voting from the North i.e. Scotland, with majority voting In to spike (IMO) the South, Scots' traditional foe, but if they do so then the Scots are merely exchanging one foe for another. Coz they will still be dictated too but this time by the bunch of bureaucrats much more further and much more difficult to deal with.

[b]To the Scottish people [/b]... (assuming that you achieve your goal of independence under the UK full EU membership) if you vote In then you will have no much control over your own destiny and will be at the mercy of a gigantic bureaucratic machine. You think the South is difficult to deal with wait till you have to deal with a machine. You can scream and cry but the machine will not be deterred and you will just be another resources to be consumed.

I see you coming and I tell you so ... obvious is obvious. 😯

the greek crisis basically said to me the EU is ****ed. Not the euro, not the parliament, but the entire game

Hmm - but what's the alternative?

a) Give up on the whole idea of cooperation
b) Chuck it out and start again, from scratch
c) Sort out the problems with the current EU

It would be interesting indeed if options b and c were on the table.