In.
Importing and exporting stuff, which I do a lot, would be a lot more hassle. I don't trust the UK government to look after human rights. I've got friends from the rest of the EU who would probably have to leave - and I know Brits in other EU countries who might have to do the same. It'd be an insanely complicated procedure to unpick EU legislation from UK law.
And, even if none of that were true, leaving would make Nigel Farrage happy.
The UK is big enough to look after itself.
No it's not. This country is a net importer of just about everything.
Ease of travel? I holiday regularly in the USA. Why would going to Europe be harder?
You think the main issue is where you can go on holiday? 😆
the point you tried to avoid is that it will be harder than now
Ease of travel? I holiday regularly in the USA. Why would going to Europe be harder?
For example minor drug offences wont stop me going to europe nor do they cost any fee for a visa.
Most fraud is committed by the countries funded not the EU - did you read the post up there about them having billions and no accountants employed *This sort of decision is what leads to the "fraud "- most if it is still just human error not actual fraud.
As for those quoting EU funding for various things? That is our cash coming back after deductions for EU fraud and bureaucracy.
* i am not suggesting that poster nor that organisation willfully committed fraud but they were not well equipped to avoid human error.
referendum poll now on the front page 🙂
Importing and exporting stuff, which I do a lot, would be a lot more hassle.
We manage to import/export to other parts of the world perfectly well.
The Japanese companies manufacture here to get around EU quotas, so they're not going to hang around if the UK leaves the EU.
Standard scaremongering argument from the "in" camp. If that is the case why aren't they already located somewhere like Poland or Latvia where labour costs would presumably be much lower?
[quote=Mark ]referendum poll now on the front page
Like the track I am undecided and yet dont have this option.
referendum poll now on the front page
STAY (there will be trouble)
GO (it will be double)
...political bias from STW towers! shocked! 😀
very much in.
mainly looking at it from a business and commerce point of view and the ease of doing business. i would rather we became more like the rest of Europe than looking to our obnoxious cousin across the atlantic for inspiration.
well when they built them we offered the lower costs and those countries were not in the EUIf that is the case why aren't they already located somewhere like Poland or Latvia where labour costs would presumably be much lower?
Relocation costs are too expensive to make this viable currently and we are in the EU.
Lets rephrase
Where will they go - cheaper EU countries with no tariffs or stay in the more expensive non EU country with tariffs- if we leave?
You see all those swivel-eyed loons on the Tory backbenches and in UKIP? What do you think this country would look like once they've been 'set free frrom the shakes of Brussels'
What do you think they're planning on doing?
Do you think that once they no longer have any constraints that they're going busily set about making everyones lives better? To create a fairer and more egalitarian society?
The funniest thing about this whole debate is the people who bizarrely think we can go it alone. Have they had their eyes shut for the past 100 years? No country can go it alone. I don't even know what 'going it alone' means any more. We live in such an interconnected and integrated world that this phrase now has no meaning.
Simple solutions for simple people. God help us.
In. Partly because I live in Spain so directly benefit from freedom of movement, but also because I believe membership of the EU will become ever more important as China (and others) become truly global powers.
In
I trust a bloated, distant, inefficient and somewhat unaccountable mega-government far more than I do our own.
Where will they go - cheaper EU countries with no tariffs or stay in the more expensive non EU country with tariffs- if we leave?
All this tariffs nonsense is a red herring as well. As previously stated the likes of BMW/Mercedes/Audi/VW do a hell of a lot of trade with the UK. There would likely be some sort of trade agreement signed in due course that would overcome such barriers.
🙄dazh - Member
The UK is big enough to look after itself.No it's not. This country is a net importer of just about everything.
Which is why, despite what the Chicken Licken "in" campaigners say, none of those exportesr would want to jeopardise their trade with us, in or out.
The modern global economy is complicated and where we really score is in services and, in particular, financial services. This makes export of actual goods slightly less important to us but does mean it is essential not to allow EU changes which would impact on those services.
Also, most of the 'out' arguments seem to be based on Daily Mail articles about the EU making us let immigrants eat our swans. There are some genuine issues with the EU but they don't seem to get mentioned often.
All this tariffs nonsense is a red herring as well
I not you chose to not refute the counter to your point but decided to change the argument. 😕
The EU is bigger than us we are leaving and giving them two fingers but they will make sure we manage to keep the trade aspect of the EU deal without paying anything in because of some car manufacturers. Yew that sounds so much more credible 😆
I have no idea why people think this is even remotely a likely outcome
Its like imagining you will get divorced but the ex will still do your washing and cook your tea.
In the separation they will negotiate harder than we do and economically they are far more powerful than we are
Its like a supplier thinking they can bully Tesco just after having really pissed them off and taken billions from the table.
mogrim - MemberIn. Partly because I live in Spain so directly benefit from freedom of movement, but also because I believe membership of the EU will become ever more important as China (and others) become truly global powers.
A girl I know went to stay in Spain for a year only to hate the place like plague after a year, because the people there treated her (British) like "money printing machine".
Can you live in Spain without money printing machine?
😯
Junkyard - lazarus
of course they are bigger than us we are leaving and giving them two fingers but they will make sure we manage to keep the trade aspect of the EU dela without paying anything inI have no idea why people think this is even remotely a likely outcome
Its like imagining you will get divorced but the ex will still do your washing and cook your tea.
You mean prior to the EU they are not bigger than UK?
Now that they gang up to form the EU ZM Club you bow? Beg?
I have no idea why people cannot stand on their own feet.
If you get a divorced you either find another partner or you get a maid.
Obvious is obvious ... 🙄
I don't trust the UK government to look after human rights.
Why not, on issues like H&S we are often ahead of our European 'partners'.
the ease of doing business
Industries I've worked in have done business in the USA, Asia, S. America, Africa and the Middle East without major issues because we bring technical expertise, yet doing work in Europe has often been harder due to their favouring of local companies no matter what. So my query is what makes Europe so special?
Also playing devils advocate maybe it's about time we stopped it being so easy for Germany to do business here, and selling their illegal cars 😉
Just watching Assange on the telly. It's decided me.Conservative government is sinister, xenophobic, controlling and supports the monarchy and an anachronistic class system which is a ridiculous and embarrassing throwback to the middle ages. Europe is progressive and forward looking and for that reason, despite some of it still being wed to the idea of a free money tree and in need of reform, I'm in...
A girl I know went to stay in Spain for a year only to hate the place like plague after a year, because the people there treated her (British) like "money printing machine".Can you live in Spain without money printing machine?
Of course you can, what a stupid question. I work for a Spanish bank, it's a big red one that owns a chunk of the UK high street too. And my day-to-day is exactly the same as all the other employees here.
You have confused human rights and safety at work.on issues like H&S
In. Better the Devil you know and all that. The fact is people who are paid to know about such things don't know whether the UK will be better in or out, so what hope do I have of coming to a suitably informed decision? Referendum is just a not-very-subtle way of making the people decide so politicians don't have to carry the burden of getting this one wrong. Let's face it, whichever way this goes it will be used as a political argument between the main parties for years to come.
I don't trust the UK government to look after human rights.Why not, on issues like H&S we are often ahead of our European 'partners'.
You seriously want this lot- a bunch of the richest, most entitled and elitest, backward-looking representatives of an almost medieval class structure - given a blank sheet of paper to effectively write a new constitution, and a bill of rights
Erm... no thanks
The local clue's usually in the police uniforms; the more tinsel and egg yolk on the shoulder and lapels, the more recently they've reinvented themselves from some sort of authoritarian or fascist regime.dragon - Member
I don't trust the UK government to look after human rights.Why not, on issues like H&S we are often ahead of our European 'partners'.
It's not that long ago in a lot of places - you still wouldn't mention the name "General Franco" in Spain.
mogrim - Member
A girl I know went to stay in Spain for a year only to hate the place like plague after a year, because the people there treated her (British) like "money printing machine".Can you live in Spain without money printing machine?
Of course you can, what a stupid question. I work for a Spanish bank, it's a big red one that owns a chunk of the UK high street too. And my day-to-day is exactly the same as all the other employees here.
Interesting views ... she really hated the people and the place but before she went she loved the place.
She still hates the place unlike you. 😆
Does that mean with job they welcome you?
you still wouldn't mention the name "General Franco" in Spain.
People make jokes about him all the time, it's been over 40 years...
Borderline in, but only just.
I'd be interested to see what happens to the migrant issue and how the EU react to it.
To be honest if we did leave I could see a few others leaving too.
Don't know if its related to EU rules, but the news last night (or maybe previous night, its all a blur of coke and hookers at the moment) said we're looking into Child Benefit changes and apparently if someone is over in the UK they can claim Child Benefit for their children even if they live in, say Poland, Greece etc. - surely that's not right?
mogrim - Member
you still wouldn't mention the name "General Franco" in Spain
People make jokes about him all the time, it's been over 40 years...
At least General Franco fought for what he believed ...
Imagine if he won then the joke will be for the other side.
Winner(s) takes all. 😆
Have we covered the Out fantasy that we could negotiate similar trade agreements to Norway when
a) the rest of the EU will be mightily cheesed off
b) we will be in competition with the rest of the EU as a Financial Centre; so Dublin / Frankfurt will be developed
Additionally our anit-EU biased press never quite manages to run a "what the EU have done for us" story... turns out it's quite a lot
Additionally I'm guessing Scotland will definitely want to leave the rUK as they seem quite keen on the EU.
Edit - as to the H&S & Human Rights issues; the reason our H&S is good is often because we actually implement what the EU tells us to. It's not like the UK gov't did it out of the kindness of their hearts
Do people seriously think we could go it alone and have the same negotiating power as the EU? they are the single biggest trading bloc in the world, with huge purchasing power.
UKIPs answer is to draw upon the common wealth- that very well known group of economically powerful states. It is a crazy idea.
To think Britain will be able to go about its business and do as we please, is BS of the highest order. We live in a highly globalised world, with institutions such as the IMF and world bank to think about. We are a slave to the global market.
The EU also has done a good job in protecting our rights, and holding Britsh governments to account over poor governance. Just look the environmental issues.
Out.
we're looking into Child Benefit changes and apparently if someone is over in the UK they can claim Child Benefit for their children even if they live in, say Poland, Greece etc. - surely that's not right?
Apparently [url= https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-move-to-uk ]it is[/url], assuming the parents are paying NI. Works both ways, though - if your kids live abroad you can still receive it.
The two camps need to be careful in this debate.
The 'in' camp need to avoid the usual 'you'd be an idiot to vote out' turn of phrase (seen quite a lot on here, by the way..).
The 'out' camp need avoid the Daily Wail 'immigrants ate my hamster' headlines.
Interestingly, as older people tend be more likely to vote, and according to the BBC older people are more inclined to vote 'out' does that make it less of an obvious win for the in brigade?
Junkyard - lazarusAll this tariffs nonsense is a red herring as well
I not you chose to not refute the counter to your point but decided to change the argument.
The EU is bigger than us we are leaving and giving them two fingers but they will make sure we manage to keep the trade aspect of the EU deal without paying anything in because of some car manufacturers. Yew that sounds so much more credibleI have no idea why people think this is even remotely a likely outcome
Its like imagining you will get divorced but the ex will still do your washing and cook your tea.
In the separation they will negotiate harder than we do and economically they are far more powerful than we are
Its like a supplier thinking they can bully Tesco just after having really pissed them off and taken billions from the table.
I didn't refute the counter because I think you are probably right - the Japanese may well pull out of the UK but I don't think anyone can categorically say what might happen. I extended the discussion however to make a point that in the long term this may not be as disasterous as many are making out.
I'm really only playing Devil's Advocate here because I really think it's a foregone conclusion any way that we will be staying in. The opinion polls whilst reasonably close (52% in vs 48% out) still indicate a pro-EU balance I think. I'm also convinced an "out" vote wouldn't result in us acually leaving the EU. I myself would probably favour staying in but there is an awful lot about the EU that I do object to.
I think if you could poll people (maybe 20 years ago) on whether or not they wanted the EU to develop to this position then the vote would be very different.
At least General Franco fought for what he believed ...Imagine if he won then the joke will be for the other side.
Winner(s) takes all.
Favourite chewy post EVA! 10/10.
Binners the result of the vote on the EU in/out is going to last longer than one parliamentary term. So you may not like the Tories, but I doubt they'll be in charge for ever.
with institutions such as the IMF and world bank
Both of which the UK was instrumental in helping to set up and still has a major role, there is no EU seat. So what is your point?
The UK has effectively been globalised and into free trade for over 100 years, often dragging along others who have been more insular.
That's not really an argument for or against being in the EU, but I the pros and cons of the EU and business aren't as clear as some on both sides of the debate try to make out.
... although as far as my own situation is concerned, it doesn't matter one way or the other as I'm planning on going to live there...
I'll be a *GASP* immigrant. 😆
No it's not. This country is a net importer of just about everything.
Really? Shit, we are in trouble....
No country is seriously talking about going it alone BTW
As for those quoting EU funding for various things? That is our cash coming back after deductions for EU fraud and bureaucracy.
That's true yes, but those things in those places that benefit from them would never be funded if left to the UK government to decide. So it's worth it to me.
My point is- we cannot simply think we can go it alone and retain every single bit of sovereignty. I am fully aware of the history of the IMF, World Bank, Bretton Woods etc.
If we are no longer part of the EU, we will still be highly influenced by other global institutions.
It is an argument that the out campaign often say, that we will be free to make all of our own decisions. We cannot.
Really? Shit, we are in trouble....
I was being facetious. My point is that anyone who thinks we can resist or turn back the tide of greater global integration is living in fantasy land. I guess the question is whether the EU is the right mechanism for managing the transition. I don't know, but I do know that the people wanting us to leave are not doing so because they want to do it better.
out, purely to get another referendum in scotland 😀
[i]Don't know if its related to EU rules, but the news last night (or maybe previous night, its all a blur of coke and hookers at the moment) said we're looking into Child Benefit changes and apparently if someone is over in the UK they can claim Child Benefit for their children even if they live in, say Poland, Greece etc. - surely that's not right?[/i]
So to 'save' £30m pa we're going to...
Seems iffy odds to me.
