"May originally said she wanted to keep the single market and junk the ECHR? Worth thinking about."
Not true.
Yes it is - I watched her ont telebox and her lips moved and everything.
Britain should withdraw from the European convention on human rights regardless of the EU referendum result, Theresa May has said, in comments that contradict ministers within her own government.
“The ECHR can bind the hands of parliament, adds nothing to our prosperity, makes us less secure by preventing the deportation of dangerous foreign nationals – and does nothing to change the attitudes of governments like Russia’s when it comes to human rights,” she said.Analysis Theresa May shows Michael Gove to the other exit on the right
The home secretary’s EU speech will suggest to many that she is more interested in the Tory leadership than the referendum
Read more
“So regardless of the EU referendum, my view is this: if we want to reform human rights laws in this country, it isn’t the EU we should leave but the ECHR and the jurisdiction of its court.”The home secretary, who is seen as a potential future Tory leader, used the speech to express support for membership of the EU, but also to reach out to the Eurosceptic wing of the party.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum
"Yes it is"
Ok, cite May advocating pulling out of the ECHR. We've been signed up to it for years before the EU existed and it isn't dependent on EU membership.
So let's see your cite.
Thank you Mr Smith.
Got a counter cite OOB?
grumpysculler - what bad things have come from the ECHR?
He just has. Right above your post.
That's not advocating leaving the ECHR. It's defending staying in the EU by rejecting the HR aspects of the case against.
Britain should withdraw from the European convention on human rights regardless of the EU referendum result, Theresa May has said, in comments that contradict ministers within her own government.
Are we reading the same thing?
By the way did anyone else think May looked twitchy and a bit scared on BBC news last night?
Britain should withdraw from the European convention on human rights [b]regardless[/b] of the EU referendum result, Theresa May has said
So, like I said
Why are we discussing the ECHR?It has nothing to do with EU membership
"Are we reading the same thing?"
I suspect not - you're reading the headline and I'm reading what she said which was clearly defending the EU by pointing out the Brexit case on HR grounds was flawed because it actually applied to the ECHR, not to the EU.
Because it came up in conversation, because our current PM wants to get the UK out of it (and is currently trying to get a court to let her make decisions without Parliament)
What would you rather be talking about ninfan? How badly the court case is going?
How one sided the negotiations are looking?
How Great post brexit looks, spent your £350 million yet?
“The ECHR can bind the hands of parliament, adds nothing to our prosperity, makes us less secure by preventing the deportation of dangerous foreign nationals – and does nothing to change the attitudes of governments like Russia’s when it comes to human rights,” she said.“So regardless of the EU referendum, [b]my view is this[/b]: if we want to reform human rights laws in this country, it isn’t the EU [b]we should leave but the ECHR and the jurisdiction of its court.[/b]”
Word for word from the video in the link
Its a humiliating climbdown because she knew she had 20+ tory rebels prepared to vote with Labour over the issue and she has been forced into doing something that only a couple of weeks ago she was saying she wouldn't do because you don't reveal you hand before the negotiations.The governments position is getting more ridiculous every day. May looks weaker every day. Its becoming more and more obvious that actually the UK government have no plan. no leverage in negotiations and no idea of what to do next.
What we are seeing is two political parties that in reality are four, this debate is exposing that.
Now all we need is a voting system to replace the ridiculous FPTP to better reflect the countries more moderate nature.
Among many ridiculous positions, the most ridiculous is the one that suggests that things are set in stone. That takes a total whitewashing or ignorance of EU history. The EU is defined by compromise and/or avoiding difficult decisions with Merkel being the CiC in that respects. There will be a fudge - that is the only certainty in all of this - and from both sides. No one had done this before and there are no plans for how to do it - hence absolutes do not exist.
I'm rather hoping that there will be no compromise from the EU. Trigger article 50 and let us really feel the dose of cold water being poured on us.
Worth remembering that May was (is) a remainer, albeit one who understands the shortcomings of the EU. However, unlike many she actually has a pair of balls and understands that instead of hiding behind excuses/calls for another referendum and other equally fatuous games,
Funniest thing written here for a while, even with jumboliar, Chew and Labrat on the thread. Mays nickname in Westminster circles is "Submarine", when trouble starts she disappears.
binners - MemberI've always thought he was profoundly stupid, and sociopathic, but this article really is quite sinister. Its a complete endorsement of the Mails 'Enemies of the People headline, and a not-even-thinly-veiled dog-whistle for a campaign of intimidation and harassment of the judiciary.
IDS:
All of that means the decision the Supreme Court will make — which it's due to announce in January — puts the 11 Justices hearing the case in the middle of the most vital constitutional question: which body is supreme, the Law Lords or Parliament? Do unelected judges (about which the public know almost nothing) have the right to supersede the wishes of the elected members of Parliament, and through them the Government?
Do you think he actually believes any of this? Or to put it another way, is he lying, or is he living in a parallel universe where he's leading a valiant defence against the tyranny of the courts trying to overthrow parliament by, er, giving parliament a say when the government doesn't want them to have one.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Doug Stanhope nailed it perfectly
"Patriotism and nationalism do nothing but make you hate people you've never met and take pride in accomplishments you had nothing to do with"
I disagree a little Bob. My nationalism / patriotism is about taking what is good about my culture and offering (not imposing) it to the world, and at the same time talking what is good about the rest of the world and using that to strengthen my own culture.
But frequently you are right.
Do you think he actually believes any of this?
I think that the only thing that snivelling little toad believes in is that him and his mates should be able to do whatever the hell they like, unencumbered by any constraints, including the law
May supported Remain and the Tory manifesto. So that's full EU membership but withdrawing from ECHR (which is not clear is even possible as EU repeatedly refused to answer that question when asked in Parliament). Now post the vote she is honouring the result and pishing on.
TMH you are quite right that the country is not as you thought it was. It's not the UK which has the burka ban is it ? I have downloaded the Casey report, 200 pages. Any comment on German state media censorship ?
The more I look at it the more I see the Government's amendment to Labour bill is genius. A simple trap which will see A50 approved tonight ?
Now post the vote she is honouring the result and pishing on.
Freudian there Jamba
The more I look at it the more I see the Government's amendment to Labour bill is genius. A simple trap which will see A50 approved tonight ?
Except if the courts say vote, then the show is the plans vote won't actually be good enough even with the amendment, will it?
Though I agree dangerous times and high stakes games at the moment.
@mikewsmith “So regardless of the EU referendum, my view is this: if we want to reform human rights laws in this country, it isn’t the EU we should leave but the ECHR and the jurisdiction of its court.”
It's just a statement of fact. Uk HR law is based on our commitments under the ECHR rather than the EU. She didn't say: "I want to leave the ECHR".
Elbent - there may be tiny compromises but the 4 freedoms are indivisible. which is a real issue for the outies 'cos they keep on claiming we can have access tariff free to the single market without movement of people - which is never going to happen
Jamba - it what was is the government amendment genius or a trap? Its a humiliating climbdown and a piece of political manouvering.
May supported Remain and the Tory manifesto.
She was very very very quiet, almost as if she didn't really want to get caught being leave (against Dave) but her RWB Brexit, Brexit mean Brexit, bring me a tank, how dare the courts stop us probably show she was very happy with the result. Unless she is playing the long game with the 3 Amigos to derail the entire process, finish them politically and then mount Goves balls on a little coaster on the PM's desk.
No comment on Germany as not seen enough of it.
A simple trap which will see A50 approved tonight ?
Get some extra shrooms in for Christmas??
and OAB - that is a big stretch to come round to that conclusion the video sounded exactly like she would like out of it, the only point of difference is that her reforms on HR wouldn't be the ones people like
May supported Remain and the Tory manifesto. So that's full EU membership but withdrawing from ECHR
I'm fully prepared to concede that it the Remain & Tory Manifesto said pull out of ECHR then that can be considered to be May's position.
Was it though?
I *thought* the Tory manifesto was to repeal the HRA but we'd continue to be in the ECHR.
Britain could slash environmental and safety regulations on imported products after it leaves the EU, a Tory MP has suggested.Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.
He went on a bit more
Grumpysculler - what bad things the ECHR has done?
As per my post above it was a Tory manifesto commitment to replace ECHR with a British Human Rights Bill. Indepedent of whether we where in the EU or not. The government was elected with a majority on that manifesto in 2015. As we will be leaving the EU they won't be able to block our withdrawl from the ECHR
Rees Mogg for when Boris isn't a big enough ****.
That doesn't answer the question.
In other news Davis and Hammond both open to continued contributions. Hilarious.
Exlax Brexit? Getting softer rapidly.
Or the full piccolax?
****-wit brexiteer Tory MP on Five Live now.
What does a red, white, and blue Brexit actually mean?
"A Brexit that's right for Britain"
He declined to expand on that. Great! Thats cleared that up then 🙄
It's the way it goes, avoid, turn. spin and head off on something else and tell you something else it worse. Best way to get round akward questions
What does a red, white, and blue Brexit actually mean?
"A Brexit that's right for [s]Britain Norway France[/s] the USA"
UK manufacturing down, I thought low £ would make it better?
I'm right - Tory Manifesto was to remain in the ECHR:
I'd be amazed if 'remain' want out of the ECHR.
outofbreath - Member
I'm right - Tory Manifesto was to remain in the ECHR:
Yes and there is a great little video of TM telling the world that she wants the UK out of it. She doesn't like it, she doesn't want it.
Tory bloke just gave an insight into what 'opportunities' the Brexit committee is discussing...
"deregulation, in order to help business"
Hope those working class[s] turkeys[/s] brexit voters are all ready. Christmas is coming
Yes and there is a great little video of TM telling the world that she wants the UK out of it.
Cite!
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
I did in the link, that has the text you seem to be twisting around. Honestly it's there.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum
br />
Though not sure I see the point in sharing again, it doesn't fit what you want to hear.
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
The EU of course, them and the remainers who are just talking things down
Interesting cross examination from the judges at Supreme Court. "There is nothing to stop Parliament blocking A50 via an opposition motion"
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
Pretty much anyone and everyone apart from themselves, as they are all infallible. Its in their DNA, hardwired in as part of their Britishness
I did in the link, that has the text you seem to be twisting around. Honestly it's there.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum
br />
Though not sure I see the point in sharing again, it doesn't fit what you want to hear.
So in spite of the fact it wasn't in the Tory manifesto, it isn't happening now they're in government, and nobody is saying it's happening you're saying TM wants to leave the ECHR and your evidence of that is her on one occasion [b]*not*[/b] saying that she wants to leave the ECHR.
Straw man.
Almost nobody wants to leave the HCHR (certainly not the Remain Campaign) it's been around since 1950 so it doesn't require anything onerous.
When we have left and everything is still shit and going rapidly downhill who will the Little englanders blame then?
When we have left and everything within the EU is increasingly spiralling downwards out of control what will the Remainers say then ?
