[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

We were there before in Rome and with the Great Mongol empire. Remember there was no nation state apart from the large "bureaucratic system" and one or two large empire. We are sleep walking into that direction now but with modern technology ... But before that individual states were just states happily going about their way of life.

go read your history books! That is so far from truth as to be laughable. Humans have never lived in harmony with each other.

Ya, but the workers' union may call for a general strike because they may be required to work longer hour to press the nuclear button

[b] mrmo - Member
Humans have never lived in harmony with each other. [/b]

slowoldman - Member

Ya, but the workers' union may call for a general strike because they may be required to work longer hour to press the nuclear button

Congratulations. That's quite funny.

Clover - Member

Actually UK is rebooting the world system.
UK is setting the world example of anything can be done if the will is there.

By emulating what we've got as closely as possible?
Okaaaay

By emulating the courage.

The courage to realise that if something is not right and needs to be changed. Change it.

Something wasn't right. I hadn't installed the blocker on my iPad. I changed it.

I think chewkw has a thing about bureaucracy, although a civil servant himself iirc, and I think it's been covered to death, until it died.
Can we move on now?

Well as no-one seems to be taking the thread seriously anymore, a few lighthearted views:

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OK, so what's this Sewel convention all about then?

Does that mean that MSPs can block Brexit?

captainsasquatch - Member
I think chewkw has a thing about bureaucracy, although a civil servant himself iirc, and I think it's been covered to death, until it died.
Can we move on now?

Edukator - Reformed Troll
Well as no-one seems to be taking the thread seriously anymore, a few lighthearted views:

zippykona - Member

But before that individual states were just states happily going about their way of life.

History.

Look it up.

[url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe ]European conflicts[/url]

(Clue: you're talking bollocks)

The last one means more when you realise that the choice is Europe or "aller droit dans le mur" which is a commonly used idiom.

Edit: and in the Brel one he's singing "don't leave me" and thinking "you've been a pain in the butt"

mrlebowski - Member

But before that individual states were just states happily going about their way of life.

History.

Look it up.

European conflicts

Ya, because they all wanted to "unite" into one system. i.e. to force one system(nation) to comply with another system (nation that was the stronger aggressor).

War started precisely because one system refused to be dominated by another system. In those days the system was led by their charismatic leaders or Kings etc ...

Nowadays we have the EU governing body with the bureaucrats seeing themselves as the legitimate governing body (i.e. EU system) to dictate their terms but without force ... yet. i.e. in those days days they were led by their charismatic leaders using force, while in the 21 century we just do it differently via a system of governance like the EU system.

Although the EU system does not have a charismatic cult leader to lead them, they apply their rules to force the docile to conform. Bit by bit they chip away the authority of the sovereign state.

They are no difference between those in history and the EU system because [b]one system must dominate the other[/b].

[quote="oldnpastit"]

OK, so what's this Sewel convention all about then?

Does that mean that MSPs can block Brexit?

IIRC the Sewel convention is that anything that effects the powers or rights of devolved parliaments must be discussed with them before westminster can legislate ( but westminster can still legislate without the consent). The arguement is is this purely a foreign policy matter in which case is westminster and westminster alone or because of the far reaching effects of EU law does it affect the devolved parliament powers directly ie impinges on devolved matters.

Most folk do not think it amounts to a veto anyway as Westminster still has primacy.

http://www.gov.scot/About/Government/Sewel/KeyFacts

Not sure whether you've quite grasped that in a written statement, Liam Fox said:

In order to minimise disruption to global trade as we leave the EU, over the coming period the Government will prepare the necessary draft schedules which replicate as far as possible our current obligations.

I am still unsure exactly how we're demonstrating vast reserves of courage, leaving the status quo to, er, replicate as far as possible our current obligations.

[url= http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/12/06/very-quietly-liam-fox-admits-the-brexit-lie ]Further reading[/url] (sorry I managed to miss out a letter in my previous link).

and in summary it's about #FakeControl #WeHadAnEmpire
Like the Christmas toy everybody wanted and now as the wrapping paper is coming off your realise it's just a bit shit.

No, No, No.. it's the gift that's a little bit confusing, what's the point, what can I use it for, don't I already have something like this?
It get's pushed to the side and ignored but slowly it becomes useful and as time slips by you realise you couldn't have gone on without it.

P.S. Crassmas is for christians

and in the Brel one he's singing "don't leave me" and thinking "you've been a pain in the butt"

Ah thanks. Google Translate had it as "Don't leave me.. You get me good shit." which seemed a bit odd 😀

I can't believe people are still talking about changing the EU from within. It's incapable of reform in the direction we wish, the project only has one direction of movement and that's towards a superstate. Download Mknday's Newsnight and listen to the EU official 😯 Note the programme intro was pretty funny too.

May has been pretty smart with this amendment, backs Labour into a corner and gives her a simple way to get A50 done on time if the Government lose the Supreme court case. The "Negotiating Plan" will I predict be very broadbrush.

The Sewel / Scottish comment I interpreted as meaning that basically the Scottish Parliament doesn't have as much power as we ("Westminster") claim. So SNP will latch into that to say "told you so, we don't have enough power". Just my view.

So in other news,

Germany will introduce a Burka ban "as extensive as the law allows" and it's us Leavers who are accused of being racists and xenophobes. Yet another EU member introducing such legislation. As if nkt reporting the 1000 incidents at New Year in Cologne German national TV has now been caught out trying to ignore the murder of a 19 year old volunteering at a refugee centre by one of the young Afghan's staying there suggestingbit was "local news" 😯 . It's tantamount to censorsip. Germany the central influence in the EU is in a dreadful mess.

I can't believe people are still talking about changing the EU from within. It's incapable of reform in the direction [s]we[/s][b]I[/b] wish, the project only has one direction of movement and that's towards a superstate.

May has been pretty smart with this amendment, backs Labour into a corner and gives her a simple way to get A50 done on time if the Government lose the Supreme court case. The "Negotiating Plan" will I predict be very broadbrush.

If it goes to debate then a lot of views get to be aired and chances of getting a majority of MP's to back one vision of brexit seems like a big challenge considering the cabinet can't agree at the moment.

This all brings us back to how much the government wants to promise/buy the votes it needs and how much public opinion is swayed by a more expensive Christmas, price rises, uncertainty and more. Once we get into holiday booking season etc. what will the main stories be in the papers?

And remember Vote Leave to make sure that important decisions about the future of the UK are made by the UK Parliament* and that UK Judges have the final say over UK law*

*Terms and Conditions apply, see list of exemtions for further details. If you have a complaint email anybody the government will be reading it 😉

I can't believe people are still talking about changing the EU from within. It's incapable of reform in the direction we wish

So do you agree with chewkw's prediction that EU countries will openly rebel against the EU rules for the chance to have individual trade agreements with a post-Brexit UK?

Germany will introduce a Burka ban "as extensive as the law allows" and it's us Leavers who are accused of being racists and xenophobes.

? Is it German-based Remain voters that are bringing in this ban?

? Is it German-based Remain voters that are bringing in this ban?

Just Jamba trying to bring issues with immigration, whether it be from Afghanistan or Poland, into every conversation - I think there's a word for that, but hey, it worked for Farage!!

Thing is there is no "soft leave" option on the table - its just a fantasy from the leavers. The 4 freedoms are indivisible. We cannot have tariff free entry to the single market without accepting freedom of movement.

This is where many of the leavers plans simply unravel. what they want is not possible.

There are only 3 reasons for wanting to leave the EU
1) xenophobia
2)Believing the anti EU lies of the Daily wail
3) wanting to go back to some rose tinted fantasy of the 50s and empire.

3) wanting to go back to some rose tinted fantasy of the 50s and empire.

Germany will introduce a Burka ban "as extensive as the law allows" and it's us Leavers who are accused of being racists and xenophobes.

For those complaining about the ECHR having a say in British justice, how many of [url= http://rightsinfo.org/infographics/fifty-human-rights-cases/ ]fifty rulings[/url] do you disagree with?

It really does amuse me that some rightwingers are trying to spin Mays climbdown over publishing the aim / strategy for negotiations as a masterstroke pinning labour in a corner! Its a humiliating climbdown because she knew she had 20+ tory rebels prepared to vote with Labour over the issue and she has been forced into doing something that only a couple of weeks ago she was saying she wouldn't do because you don't reveal you hand before the negotiations.

The governments position is getting more ridiculous every day. May looks weaker every day. Its becoming more and more obvious that actually the UK government have no plan. no leverage in negotiations and no idea of what to do next.

May has been pretty smart with this amendment, backs Labour into a corner and gives her a simple way to get A50 done on time if the Government lose the Supreme court case. The "Negotiating Plan" will I predict be very broadbrush.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA.......

Nice attempt at spin but I think the only one buying that load of bollocks is you!

The governments position is getting more ridiculous every day. May looks weaker every day.

This. Just like everyone can see that Corbyn doesn't know what he's doing, they can also see that in TM. It's Gordon Brown all over again.

For those complaining about the ECHR having a say in British justice, how many of fifty rulings do you disagree with?

So your argument is that because the ECHR did some good stuff, any bad stuff that they did is OK?

edit: Oh FFS those aren't even all ECHR cases. Why does a UK domestic court ruling on human rights somehow justify the ECHR being superior?

The express article this morning is some fine work, headline:

Historic moment as MPs to vote on EU exit TODAY after May challenges remoaners

Further down..

Today’s vote is officially symbolic and not legally binding.

No doubt people will be lapping that up, not hard to see how we got into such a mess when people blindly believe headlines.

The comments section should make for a laugh as usual!

Mays position seems to be "if I keep doing photo opportunities that make the Daily Mail and everyone think I'm a Thatcha clone, then maybe I can buy a bit more time trying to work out what the **** we're going to do to get ourselves out of this enormous hole we've dug ourselves"

"Now has anyone got a tank I can stand in front of? And flags? Loads and loads of flags!"

Among many ridiculous positions, the most ridiculous is the one that suggests that things are set in stone. That takes a total whitewashing or ignorance of EU history. The EU is defined by compromise and/or avoiding difficult decisions with Merkel being the CiC in that respects. There will be a fudge - that is the only certainty in all of this - and from both sides. No one had done this before and there are no plans for how to do it - hence absolutes do not exist.

Worth remembering that May was (is) a remainer, albeit one who understands the shortcomings of the EU. However, unlike many she actually has a pair of balls and understands that instead of hiding behind excuses/calls for another referendum and other equally fatuous games, she has a mandate that needs to be executed. For that she should be aplauded. It's all too easy to sit on the life's not fair chair, whining on and on about another vote, but life goes on and leaders need to manage that process.c

So far so good. But she is making an error in appealing against the ruling. As interesting as the constitutional questions are - no they are not clear cut - she would have been better served by accepting the ruling and presenting a very tight bill to the House and seeing who else has balls. She would have seen a lot of eunuchs out there!

The silly thing here is the demand for 24/7 news coverage - hence all the silly briefings/spinning. There is SFA to say until we get on with the negotiations. We know the starting points and the fact that they are not reconcilable. No shit Sherlock. So this is where the real work begins and it does not need to happen in front of TV cameras.

So come on May. Stop the games and the spinning that you look obviously uncomfortable with, it's not fooling anyone. Present a v tight bill. TRigger A50 and let the work begin. Some of us have businesses to run!

1) xenophobia
2)Believing the anti EU lies of the Daily wail
3) wanting to go back to some rose tinted fantasy of the 50s and empire.

Nail on head.

I am not really sure what is objectionable about the founding principles of the EU being:

•an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers ;
•an internal market where competition is free and undistorted;
•sustainable development, based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment;
•the promotion of scientific and technological advance;
•the combating of social exclusion and discrimination, and the promotion of social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child;
•the promotion of economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States.

So a vote leave is a rejection of those values to replace them with what - faux patriotism seems to be the latest with the 'red, white and blue' Brexit. To misquote Johnson

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

I happened to watch the last episode of the ITV series 'The World at War' entitled 'Remember' at the w/e. That is an excellent non jingoistic series and the last episode particularly moving (the consequences and failure of rampant nationalism of the type now being whipped up again) but the most interesting bit was the comments by the US historian about the post war / post imperial position of the UK in which he said that all the UK gained as a result of the war, if anything, was the 'moral high ground'.

That 'moral high ground' has long since eroded albeit the kippers and far right in the country haven't noticed as yet - we were firmly put in our place at Suez when the US told us to pack it in and we did - we ceased to be an important power at that point in history. We have gone from moral high ground to now quixotic fantasy land soon to be laughingstock (if we are not there already).

If you put the European project since its inception has it been a force for good or bad then it has to accepted that on balance it has been the former for any number of reasons.

As I have mentioned before, I really and truly could not care less about the financial consequences of the Euro, endless graphs on here about trivial and minor points. The rejection by the UK of those above founding principles leads me to think if not them then what. TBH I would sooner being in a union, albeit imperfect, that has those principles at it core as I know have to assume that the UKs guiding principles are as TJ indicated.

Nipper, but "we" are in the minority, don't forget. The Great British public have voted. Now it's time to execute their mandate.

So what does the Great British public believe in..... does it not believe in full employment and social progress, obviously not.

Indeed THM

We are now hearing long diatribes of arguments 'for' the EU that the remainders had more than adequate opportunity to make at the time

Instead they chose to leap up and down shouting 'racist' '350 million' and 'Farage'

So what does the Great British public believe in.....

Leaving the EU

Is it really that difficult a concept to absorb?

They - incorrectly IMO - believe that our interests are better served outside the EU. I doubt it, but we shall see. The decision has been made. Move on.

In reality, we will most likely end up with a situation close to the status quo but slightly worse. A bodge. But no one should be surprised at that. Just be prepared for it and get on with things.

Grumpysculler - what bad things the ECHR has done? Name 1

Instead they chose to leap up and down shouting 'racist' '350 million' and 'Farage'

Justifiably so. It's been a shock for most of us to realise the UK is not the society we thought it was.

Why are we discussing the ECHR?

It has nothing to do with EU membership

Justifiably so. It's been a shock for [s]most[/s] many of us to realise the UK is not the society we [s]thought it was[/s] had imposed on everyone else.

FTFY

NINfan - 350m, Farage's racism? we've done that. Change the record.
ECHR? Because May originally said she wanted to keep the single market and junk the ECHR? Worth thinking about.

Also check out what Rees-Mogg has been saying about safety and environmental standards. These are the Brexies true colours folks.

Now accepting the danger of discussing something positive that might come out of this - federal UK.
Gut feeling is I like it. The lack of English devolution has been a problem brushed under the carpet for some time, and one that has to some extent fuelled the unholy mess we find ourselves in.
Interesting.

ninfan - Member
Why are we discussing the ECHR?
It has nothing to do with EU membership

In the end I would happily settle for awarding the vote leave mob a best debate certificate and keep the UK in the eu.

[url= http://www.****/debate/article-4007894/IAIN-DUNCAN-SMITH-s-crucial-judges-decide-fate-Brexit-scrutinised.html ]Is there a more obnoxious little weasel in UK politics than IDS?[/url]

I've always thought he was profoundly stupid, and sociopathic, but this article really is quite sinister. Its a complete endorsement of the Mails 'Enemies of the People headline, and a not-even-thinly-veiled dog-whistle for a campaign of intimidation and harassment of the judiciary.

There aren't the words in the English language, including the really really sweary ones, to truly express my utter contempt for this vile little man.

At least we know what he meant by 'Taking Back Control'. It seems to involve installing the Putin model of 'democracy'

How about ****?