Am I allowed to assume you don't favour rushing SlowOldMan?
sorry IGMC
Does Brexit feel like it means neverendum THM, even without a second referendum?
The pre-brexit polls suggested about a third of Tories were opposed to brexit. The swing in Richmond says that those Tories no longer vote Tory.
Alternatively as i said, people who voted to remain, did so twice. What a shocker!
Brexit has given Britain a totally new political landscape. A reinforced SNP [err, now looking rather silly and inconsistent] a diminished Tory party, a Labour shambles and a population that will vote for any party of [b]moderation,[/b] continuity and a future for their kids.
Have you missed the last 12 months globally?
As the Euro is such a disaster, it's lucky we ain't in it, isn't it?
The creation of the euro is the single best example of how the EU is simply incapable of legislating and managing anything. Your currency underpins your economy. If you can't get that right and the EU got it very wrong then you should not be in control of anything.
The euro matters to us as we had special trade free accesss to this supposedly wonderful single market and the health and viability of those economies is central to any benefit we derive from this access. This access comes also at a very high price, financially and in terms of restrictions as what we can do globally.
Our budget contribution depends in part on the relative strength of our economy so the weaker is Europe the more we have to pay
Edukator Britain is no more divided than many other European countries. Difference is we where given a Referendum so we could express our view on that specific issue. The Swiss voted against free movement in 2015
Not sure I understand the question - but if I do, perhaps. Look, we know Europe has to change one way or another and this comes down to what is decided over the €. Nothing else really matters as it all hinges on this one issue.
So yes the referendum was stupid as you are voting yes/no to something that can exist going forward. But that massive screw up aside, we did it, the result happened and now we need to make the best of it. Farting about simply makes a bad situation worse.
The Swiss voted against free movement in 2015
Indeed. How's that going for them again?
THM - my question was really just asking if you are feeling stunningly frustrated by the lack of constructive, well constructive anything, since June (or arguably since late summer 2015).
It was a little whimsical in its phrasing, and rhetorical in content.
That said, I don't believe we have to leave and I am starting to enjoy the desperation of a lot of the Brexies. Their triumphal crowing slowly turning to disconsolate whinging is funny. Even if we do eventually get some sort of soft Brexit instead of remaining.
The swing in Richmond says that those Tories no longer vote Tory.
There was no Tory candidate. I would have voted LibDem or not bothered at all. There is zero chance I would have voted for Zac given his petulant resignation.
Indeed. How's that going for them again?
It's a work in progress. Who knows they may hold a Referendum on ripping up their EEA agreement, they have already confirmed they will NEVER join the EU following another Referendum
The euro matters to us as we had special trade free accesss to this supposedly wonderful single market and the health and viability of those economies is central to any benefit we derive from this access.
TRUE
This access comes also at a very high price, financially and in terms of restrictions as what we can do globally.
FALSE
The debate in a nutshell which is why we needed the 5 core lies mixed in with some nasty xenophobia to get where we are.
Because this is now a negotiation which has to start.
Says who?
Uncertainty is BAD for everyone. You cant sit is a silly stalemate for ever
But as pointed out, there are huge shifts planned in the EU over the next 12 months, nobody is suggesting we sit on the decision forever, just long enough to see how some of the already known imminent events play out.
Voters
Voters
What do they know?
It's a work in progress. Who knows they may hold a Referendum on ripping up their EEA agreement
Indeed. Or they may quietly find a way of going around the referendum result. That sounds roughly as likely.
Am I allowed to assume you don't favour rushing SlowOldMan?
I'm certainly in no hurry to leave the EU.
Step back and take a breath. This is a very complex negotiation that will most likely take AT LEAST two years to finalise. Every month now adds to this period of idiocy. None of this is positive. Its absurd to keep waiting as there is nothing new to be gained. To repeat, we know the basic ground rules and starting points and where they are incompatible. Nothing will change however long we wait, apart from the outlook getting worse
What do they know?
Foreigners are bad news - apparently - beyond that, a good question!
Nothing will change however long we wait, apart from the outlook getting worse
Which may be the saving of the situation. Opinions change.
So we regress to the argument - lets just ignore the result because we, the minority of voters, don't like what the majority of voters decided. Marvellous.
What would have been the point of starting the negotiations in say September ? We know for sure now (what I predicted 😉 ) that Hollande will play no role in deciding anything. It's highly likely the European elections in the next 6 months will be favourable for Brexit.
End March was chosen so as to be comfortably before the first round of French elections in April and before latest date of late May if we are to be out totally before the European Parliament elections in May 2019
There seems little uncertainty to me TMH. May made it quite clear it would be a Brexit at the hard end of the spectrum. We are predicated towards free trade and the EU it seems are not.
So we regress to the argument - lets just ignore the result because we, the minority of voters, don't like what the majority of voters decided. Marvellous.
They could always reinforce [s]there[/s] their (how the hell did that happen? 😳 ) position by, I don't know, having a second referendum. 😛
The politicians are bystanders in this, The bureaucrats will sort out the nitty gritty.
On this election logic, so what happens when we wait for all the 2017 ones. Do we wait for 2018, 2019, and 2020?
Anyway - Monday they lose appeal. TM then presents 3 line Bill to Parliament. They get it through (just) and A50 belatedly gets triggered and the process will begin properly in 2Q17.
We are predicated towards free trade
We have a funny way of showing it then.
Right now we look insular and isolationist.
What happened to Nige's "march on the supreme court"?
All gone very quiet, perhaps they realised they coun't mobilise enough people, certainly not the 100,000 on a Monday morning
Not so sure. When an Attorney General appears to tell judges that the referendum vote should weigh on their interpretation of law, I would have through that would be more likely to encourage the judges to reinforce the independence of the judiciary.Anyway - Monday they lose appeal.
Corbyn has said Labour wants to play with the words. 3 lines might not cut it.
Probably aren't 100,000 Brexies left in the UK. (Jamba - you don't count if you're ex-patting)
Well the AG is an ass on that one. But tbc, I am auuming it's the gov who loses hence the need to present an Act.
Nige who BTW?
Any chance of a bit of a leveller here?
Jambalaya, chewkw and ninfan, could you lay out exactly what you want from Brexit?
It'd be good to see your benchmark positions.
Me? I didn't vote for change.
Down to you to say what your hopes are, what your expectations are, all in one clear post.
It'll save on all this bollocksing and stance changing as we are moving forward. 😉
UK should wait for the outcome of some of European nations election then take it from there. No need to rush into anything or set anything in stone at the moment.
Only silly remainders keep banging on about wanting more details ...
Two sentences that are logically inconsistent. Spoken like a true Brexshiteer
chewkw - MemberUK should wait for the outcome of some of European nations election then take it from there. No need to rush into anything or set anything in stone at the moment.
Only silly remainders keep banging on about wanting more details ...
Chewkw hasn't a clue what he wants then.
One doewn, two to go.
captainsasquatch - Member
Jambalaya, chewkw and ninfan, could you lay out exactly what you want from Brexit?
Jambalaya and Ninfan are much more coherent & polite in their response to you lot than I do so I shall only speak for myself, so here goes ...
1. [b]Peace of mind.[/b]
2. [b]Free from EU bureaucratic intervention.[/b]
3. [b]Happiness[/b] - you can be poor still be happy you know.
4. [b]"Scott Tenorman Must Die"[/b] (South Park, Season number: 5, Episode number: 4, Air date: July 11, 2001) - This is the funniest episode which they should air every year tbh.
Jambalaya and Ninfan are much more coherent & polite in their response to you lot than I do, so I shall only speak for myself so here goes ...1. Peace of mind.
2. Free from EU bureaucratic intervention.
3. Happiness - you can be poor still be happy you know.
4. "Scott Tenorman Must Die" (South Park, Season number: 5, Episode number: 4, Air date: July 11, 2001)
Thank you (see above 😆 ).
Ok I'm gonna bite (nowt on telly nursing a hangovet) Chewkw what makes you happy?
I know I shouldn't, but I'll bite too...
1. Peace of mind.2. Free from EU bureaucratic intervention.
3. Happiness - you can be poor still be happy you know.
4. "Scott Tenorman Must Die" (South Park, Season number: 5, Episode number: 4, Air date: July 11, 2001) - This is the funniest episode which they should air every year tbh.
2. You'll be lucky, in,or out of the EU we will be part of a lot of its bureaucracy
All others are available inside the EU, but with greater job security and prosperity (even for the poor).
Welcome to the remain side chewkw 😉
We have a funny way of showing it then.Right now we look insular and isolationist.
Leave said all the way thorough we wanted global trade deals and a fair immigration system open equally to all. Mrs May has made it clear it's our desire to have a free trade deal with Europe and that all existing EU citizens are welcome to stay (subject to same treatment from the EU)
17.5m hasn't gone to 100k. Did you watch th Newsnight piece from Middlesborough
I've been waiting to see the whole Corbyn / Sky interview, he has said Labour will seek an amendment on workers rights, environmental legislation and access to single market but will not block A50. This makes no sense as access to single market may only be available if we remain a member. I believe the judgement may not be handed down till January.
@captain I have always been clear
Exit from EU membership
No budget contributions
No freedom of movement
Complete freedom to negotiate global trade deals
That means leaving the single market and the customs union.
I'd support UK joining specific programmes like Erasmus (£20m pa I believe), I am not fussed about free trade with Europe and I wouldn't pay anything for it and believe EU should pay us for such access.
I always struggle with the term poor, if you can provide food, shelter, security for your family and your children can access education up to and including a degree then I think you are not poor (assuming debt is manageable (mortgage student loans) if you can not access or provide one of those things then I would suggest you are poor - quality of life and being poor are often confused. Sour chewkw which of these four things are you prepared to give up to be outside yhe EU?
At the moment sleep, plenty of sleep ... nothing makes me more happy then sleep.oldmanmtb - Member
Ok I'm gonna bite (nowt on telly nursing a hangovet) Chewkw what makes you happy?
igm - Member
2. You'll be lucky, in,or out of the EU we will be part of a lot of its bureaucracy
There are many levels of bureaucracy but getting rid of the larger EU one is a start. We shall deal with the rest as we go along.
Myth, hype, overrated and brainwashed. EU can say what they like tbh because I just don't believe in them.All others are available inside the EU, but with greater job security and prosperity (even for the poor).
Or more to the point welcome to the changing world.Welcome to the remain side chewkw
Jamba - don't respond like that - you'll make me think I'm managing to wind you up 😉
But I think we are agreed that while significant, the drop in support for Brexit is not all the way to 100k. Not yet anyway.
@captain I have always been clearExit from EU membership
No budget contributions
No freedom of movement
Complete freedom to negotiate global trade dealsThat means leaving the single market and the customs union.
I'd support UK joining specific programmes like Erasmus (£20m pa I believe), I am not fussed about free trade with Europe and I wouldn't pay anything for it and believe EU should pay us for such access.
Thank you, one left now.
Or more to the point welcome to the changing world.
Ok fair enough, agreed, come and join us in the changing world, don't try and cling to the past Chewkw.
There are many levels of bureaucracy but getting rid of the larger EU one is a start. We shall deal with the rest as we go along.
And this is part of your problem. You stated that you want to be free from EU bureaucracy except the smaller bits that you think are useful.
The same for Jamba, out of the EU, except maybe there are some bits which he'd like to keep.
The vote was simple, IN or OUT!
oldmanmtb - Member
I always struggle with the term poor, if you can provide food, shelter, security for your family and your children can access education up to and including a degree then I think you are not poor (assuming debt is manageable (mortgage student loans) if you can not access or provide one of those things then I would suggest you are poor - quality of life and being poor are often confused.[b] Sour chewkw which of these four things are you prepared to give up to be outside yhe EU? [/b]
When I used the term poor I don't mean me but others who are struggling with inability to cope. They are constantly under stress etc ...
I am amongst the lucky one by comparison but that does not mean I sympathise with the entire world.
I would rather live a simple life outside or EU with happiness for that I am willing to give them ALL up.
However, in reality that is not possible because the tentacles of the EU bureaucrats and their ideology are spreading like parasite. They will search for the peace then destroy the peace in order to justify their existence.
p/s: I definitely Cannot provide two out of your four conditions above ... at the moment. See if I can in five years time.
I like a changing world I always prosper during chaos and I think leaving the EU is likley to present me, my kids and my business some great opportunities to expand and become more profitable- however I am also wise enough to know that capitalism (capitalising) always means taking wealth and therfore security from the less advantaged (both business and personal) and this new world that the Boris and the boys are creating is going to produce opportunity and misery in equal measure for each end of society - and me I will do everything in my power to ensure me and my family prosper and try to remain a responsible capitalist (if such a thing exists) but when you start pushing people like me into the margins and getting us to reappraise our approach to business it will not have a positive outcome.
Where do you live Chewkw? I live in France, I have dual nationality but I don't have UK voting rights. I avoid using "we" when speaking in favour of remain. I'm curious as to where this ultra-nationalism of yours comes from.
Jamba has been open about his £10 Pom background and sometimes expat existence. C'est Chris is a French expat, MSP and others live in Germany. Several contributors are married to or living with first or second generation immigrants.
So in the interests of clarity, where are you from and which passports do you hold?
I ain't ultra-nationalism that I can assure you. I am more of a practical person.Edukator - Reformed Troll
I'm curious as to where this ultra-nationalism of yours comes from.
What is right, right. Wrong, wrong ... I decide for myself.
EU bureaucratic system is totally impractical in the grand scheme of things.
To keep it simple I am legal.So in the interests of clarity, where are you from and which passports do you hold?
[b]
A question to you: Do you treat mankind with equality and fairness?[/b]
