[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Binners like it or not the eurosceptics have been proven totally correct

Eh? Correct about what? Genuine Q.

and have won the day politically.

This is the problem. This has been about politics/ideology not reality or what is best for us. Politicians and their fawning sycophants celebrate that they "won" or bemoan that they "lost" whereas what they should have been trying to do all along is make things better.

Making things better is the justification they use for wanting to impose their form of rule on the population. I genuinely believe that anyone involved in the top levels of politics treats things getting better as a happy side effect of whatever they are doing rather than the aim (which is actually gaining and maintaining power for the benefit of themselves and those they deem as the "right people").

Eurosceptics. The euro (disaster of "one size fits all" interest rates and facilitated uncontrolled borrowing an the basis someone else would pay). Economic stagnation (due to protectionism) and worse due to failure of the euro. EEC morphing into a political union project. Madness that in Schengen. Impact of excessive expansion.

Thanks

I suspect that we agree on more than we think (euro, increased political union and expansion under current terms) but maybe for completely different reasons!

Not convinced by arguments about economic stagnation and Schengen (which isn't a UK issue anyway).

Many of the leave arguments (deliberately) ignore the cultural, scientific and peace benefits in favour of a purely economic/sovereignty based argument. As a result all of these things, which are some of the most important parts we need to keep have fallen off the list of requirements from Brexit. This is probably why I feel most aggrieved by the whole process (as well as the outright and barefaced lying and shifting of blame from both sides of the campaign, making an informed choice essentially impossible).

Binners like it or not the eurosceptics have been [i]proven totally correct[/i] and have won the day politically.

You are Mystic Meg and I claim my 5 euros.

With all the whinging about 'Remoaners' whinging can you imagine what an almighty whinge the Brexiteers would be making right now if the swing had gone the other way. So just drop all your crowing and whining, you ****s would be whinging 10x worse (**** me surely you can recall farage starting off [i]before[/i] the result when he thought he was losing?). Proof, right there.

Shackleton - Member
Many of the leave arguments (deliberately) ignore the cultural, scientific and peace benefits in favour of a purely economic/sovereignty based argument. As a result all of these things, which are some of the most important parts we need to keep have fallen off the list of requirements from Brexit. This is probably why I feel most aggrieved by the whole process (as well as the outright and barefaced lying and shifting of blame from both sides of the campaign, making an informed choice essentially impossible).

Nahh over rated and over hyped for 43 years because it systematically tried to brainwash and to enslave the people in term name "progress" ... a slogan that is very common with propaganda enslaving system. Progress they shouted while slowly stripping off the people of their will.
[b]
For me the main disagreement is EU bureaucratic system. This system needs to be dismantled instantly as it is not fit to intervene in the affairs of sovereign states[/b].

Yes, all those arguments about EU club rules etc ... yes, yes, whatever hype they are selling. No, I don't want them and I don't need them. In fact majority of us have decided we don't need them in our referendum.

The world has changed and we have moved on.

I appreciate that it's a natural reaction to run off and hide when confronted with a situation you can't comprehend.
Leavers need to open their minds and embrace what human beings can do when not having wars. Europe has done fantastically well, look at the Hadron Collider. No single country could have built that.
This is a golden opportunity for forward thinking ,progressive people to show the world what we can do.
The future awaits us lets go forward together not retreat behind the curtains peeking out at what everyone else is doing.

zippykona - Member
Europe has done fantastically well, look at the Hadron Collider.

Is that a vanity project?

Stop doing science until we solve world poverty and can feed, clothe and shelter the exponentially growing world population on our existing (dwindling) natural resources?

Great plan. 🙄

Personally I'm not against "progress" - but yes I can see that a Leave vote makes sense if you are.

Ya, but can that thing feed the people?

Well no. But it could help work out how to get clean and cheap energy amongst other things. So hardly a vanity project.

Ya, but can that thing feed the people?

We don't have a food shortage in Europe.

Is that a vanity project?

No, not really.

Good to hear the new "Second Referendum" Lib Dem MP for Richmond on the radio yesterday - an absolute car crash of an interview:

@just5 fyi we did that already on the Zac thread. Agreed total car crash and then she scarpered

And if it, Brexit means god knows, all goes **** up Jambalaya can scuttle back to the continent with benefit of his wife's EU citizenship confident in the knowledge that his children will continue to benefit from their EU citizenship, a benefit he and his fellow Brexopaths have deemed it appropriate to deny others.

an absolute car crash of an interview:

By her own admission she has only been involved in politics for a year and a half. So hardly surprising she isn't as polished and media-savvy as a slick spin-doctor trained career politician.

She still won though yeah?

And if it, Brexit means god knows, all goes **** up Jambalaya can scuttle back to the continent with benefit of his wife's EU citizenship confident in the knowledge that his children will continue to benefit from their EU citizenship, a benefit he and his fellow Brexopaths have deemed it appropriate to deny others.

[img] [/img]

@Shakleton yes I suspect we do agree on quite a lot and 15 years ago I was pretty pro EU. It has clearly (IMO) gone very badly post Maastricht / Lisbon and euro as the political landscape in UK and Europe now shows, people want radical change.

Schengen allows problems to arrive at our door, it does affect us negatively whether that be the Calais camp or terrorism risks. The whole migrant crises has been massively exacerbated by Schengen demonstrating how poorly thought out it was (which is why we didn't sign it) and how members simply ignore the rules which where put in place.

Nipper my wife is equally eurosceptic, she however thinks France is much more locked in having given up their currency. I think she would vote for a French exit to the euro / EU if given a Referendum. It may yet happen. Given an absolute free choice of somewhere other than the UK I'd live in Switzerland and my wife would chose the US.

@just5 fyi we did that already on the Zac thread. Agreed total car crash and then she scarpered

Or just not a professional career politician but she couldn't have been clearer on what she stood for.

Given Julia Hartley-Brewer's vociferous leave credentials it is hardly surprising that she took that tack with a deliberate attempt to derail things by conflating 2 completely separate issues. They may look superficially similar but actually and legally are completely different.

So to me it looks like an inexperienced and outwardly honest politician reaffirming her manifesto pledge caught short by a partisan, devious and disingenuous journalist. Hardly surprising that the right wing press are celebrating this given that it was a piece of misleading shitehawk douchebaggery that they wish they could have done.

jambalaya - Member
@just5 fyi we did that already on the Zac thread. Agreed total car crash and then she scarpered

Well it's a tactic that the Brexies have used successfully for a few years, in particular your demi-god Farage - he's had more car crashes than Pastor Maldonado.

Nipper99 - Member

@just5 fyi we did that already on the Zac thread. Agreed total car crash and then she scarpered

Or just not a professional career politician but she couldn't have been clearer on what she stood for.

I think LibDem should use her as their poster girl. 🙂

other than the UK I'd live in Switzerland and my wife would chose the US.

Bit right wing are you two? Authoritarian right wing at that.

Said with a smile - not nastily.

igm - Member

jambalaya - Member
@just5 fyi we did that already on the Zac thread. Agreed total car crash and then she scarpered

Well it's a tactic that the Brexies have used successfully for a few years, in particular your demi-god Farage - he's had more car crashes than Pastor Maldonado.

Ya, remember this the Referendum to leave EU was once in a lifetime so when the opportunity was presented, we grabbed the chance it like a mad dog biting into it's toy. Never to let go again.

Alternatively, even if the Leave campaign put a flying pig as their Leave figure I would still vote for the flying pig.

No matter who organised the leave campaign the bottom line I would vote for them regardless, as anything is better than the EU system. Yes, anything ...

The euro (disaster of "one size fits all" interest rates and facilitated uncontrolled borrowing an the basis someone else would pay).

[s]As the Euro is such a disaster, it's lucky we ain't in it, isn't it?[/s]

Uff, what's the use?

Alternatively, even if the Leave campaign put a flying pig as their Leave figure I would still vote for the flying pig.
No matter who organised the leave campaign the bottom line I would vote for them regardless, as anything is better than the EU system. Yes, anything ...

Chewkw - we know. I wouldn't expect you to think through the issues. However thank you for confirming my prejudices- the mad dog comment does describe Brexies quite well.

On the other hand, the wind has changed and I'm starting to like how things are going for us steadfast British patriot remainers.

What exactly is wrong with the EU system? I can see that the euro has been a car crash and sucks the life out of the EU but in general the EU seems to be a pretty good way of pooling bureaucracy and making decisions on long term issues like environmental protection that are impossible nationally. Migration such as that happening across the Mediterranean is to do with circumstances outside the control of the EU and covered by the legal structures of the Geneva convention. Surely if we wanted to stop a lot of refugees it would be much better to leave the Geneva convention. Italy cannot just turn the boats back as we signed up to the Geneva convention as the world was horrified at what happened in the Second World War.

the wind has changed

Richmond park- 72% voted remain in the EU referendum, whereas 49.68% voted for a pro-remain party at the by-election

Parp!

igm - Member
Chewkw - we know. I wouldn't expect you to think through the issues. However thank you for confirming my prejudices- the mad dog comment does describe Brexies quite well.

On the other hand, the wind has changed and I'm starting to like how things are going for us steadfast British patriot remainers.

Or another illustration is like the crocodile biting into it's food where the chance of letting go is slim. Then after that the excitement starts ... ya, you guess right the crocodile will perform the death roll. In our case we are slowly performing the death roll with EU bureaucrats now ...

Yes, steadfast is good but the question is can remain steadfast for another 43 years (similar years others endured) or will EU survive for another 5 years?

Slowly, slowly catchy monkey ... we catch. 😀

I would vote for them regardless, as anything is better than the EU system. Yes, anything ...

As per GEDA, I can see some people didn't like the EU for various reasons. But I can't really understand hating it so much that you would vote for ANYTHING instead of it. In fact I find that quite scary.

If your life in the EU was really so intolerable that you'd have voted for literally [i]anything[/i] else (BNP? Communists? ISIS? The Green Party?) then why would you want to stay in the UK at all? Even when we leave we'll still be massively tied to the EU by trade, standards and law.

Parp!

So yeah, I can understand that stat.

GrahamS - Member
As per GEDA, I can see some people didn't like the EU for various reasons. But I can't really understand hating it so much that you would vote for ANYTHING instead of it. In fact I find that quite scary.

Actually, that behaviour is rather normal coz it is not much different from how the opposite voters voted as well.

If your life in the EU was really so intolerable that you'd have voted for literally anything else (BNP? Communists? ISIS? The Green Party?) then why would you want to stay in the UK at all? Even when we leave we'll still be massively tied to the EU by trade, standards and law.

When EU system put pressure on the region the local suffers not the politicians. We can deal with our politicians our ways so there is no need to have outside intervention, but increasingly that is not the case and life has become harder.

Therefore, if I were to stay home my situation could be worst as I have no way to survive due to our so extremely corrupted system, whereas the chances of survival in the UK is much higher with my education background (got them all in UK) so coming back to UK is just natural for me. i.e. how hard can that be?

TBH many of the immigrants/migrants etc don't want to come here but when your system (EU etc) starts to impose (value etc) on them, the only way out for them is to come to you.

chewkw

Or another illustration is like the crocodile biting into it's food where the chance of letting go is slim. Then after that the excitement starts ... ya, you guess right the crocodile will perform the death roll. In our case we are slowly performing the death roll with EU bureaucrats now ...

The UK is the animal trying to "escape" the EU is the crocodile firmly clamped on in you scenario... Once the death role starts how does that normally work out for the prey? I think you are right it and it accurately reflects the situation. The UK will be left divided and wounded and easier prey for other countries and businesses to dictate terms to. We can already see this and the article 50 roll is yet to start

cornholio98 - Member
The UK is the animal trying to "escape" the EU is the crocodile firmly clamped on in you scenario... Once the death role starts how does that normally work out for the prey? I think you are right it and it accurately reflects the situation. The UK will be left divided and wounded and easier prey for other countries and businesses to dictate terms to. We can already see this and the article 50 roll is yet to start

Interpret as you see fit because we are dealing with political system(s).

The illustration fits ALL political system on ALL sides.

Ya, wounded etc ... if that is the case then remainders MUST bow.

Do you think remainders will bow to Leavers?

Who gives way?

Ya, of course we will be wounded.

But UK don't have to be wounded if the remainders respect the outcome of the Referendum.

Are remainders prepared to bow? Bow to the will of the people.

But UK don't have to be wounded if the remainders respect the outcome of the Referendum.

But UK don't have to be wounded if the remainders respect the [b]non-binding, advisory-only[/b] outcome of the Referendum.

Fixed that for you :-0

^^^^ a good argument, well made.

The reality (as many Brexies have realised) is that time is running out for the leave camp.

They desperately need to kick off A50 ASAP because if the end game of A50 is still playing out as we go into the 2020 GE then they have lost. By then the impact on jobs and prosperity will have started to hit home and it it likely that the public will return an anti-Brexit parliament. If they can get us out before that happens they have a chance, but if not Britain will demand the Brexies, not the remainers, leave.

Stay strong remainers, delay them every time you can, time is on our side - the public will be soon enough. (Note that even David Davis is coming round.)

igm plus one.

We have to recognise we’re the insurgents now. We have to build the capability to mobilise and to organise.

I do not want Jambalaya or Ninfan's dystopian vision of the future:

The truth is that the real case for Brexit is the one you now hear openly acknowledged by some of its supporters.

And it’s not a stupid case.

It is that Britain should free itself from all the constraints which Europe imposes and from its essential social democratic model and go for a new type of economy altogether.

This economy would be defined in a sense by its very opposition to that European model. It would be free market, free trading, light regulation, low tax, low social protection – a sort of attempt to ?replicate the city states of Hong Kong and Singapore.

It’s not an impossible vision. We might – or at least some of us might – succeed in such a society.

But let us be very clear. It is not what a lot of the Brexit people voted for.

The NHS? Forget it. It would be much too expensive. Low numbers of migrants? Of course not, we would want them and need them. Theresa May’s workers on boards and a fairer capitalism? Not on this model.

What on earth would be the point of leaving Europe only to import Europe’s labour laws? Our competitive advantage would be precisely the absence of such regulation.

This vision is the future which could work.

The journalist from TalkRadio was odious, scolding the MP like a child before scolding children like that became unacceptable. Her tone of voice said it all. There really was no chance for dialogue. If that is how brexiters are behaving I think I'd best not visit the UK any time soon.

Or is the journalist a remainer trying to give leave a bad image by parodying leave reactions to the call for a second referendum based on the issues rather than lies?

Either way, Britain is in a sorry state, more divided than I've ever known it (as this thread testifies).

Richmond voters were Remain and backed (closely) a Remain candidate in a big swing. Swing aside how is that such a big thing?

We are still going to leave - unfortunately - and we should bloody well be getting on with it.

I have listed my objections many many times to the point of boredom of eveyone here I am sure.

But apart from the € which was are not a part of, few have (any?) have stood up to scrutiny.

As for the doomesday scenarios (1) we have left yet, but the immediate adverse affects have been as predicted in the models that Brexhsiteers rubbished. So we shall see what the eventual outcome is...

...so far, on top of unorthodox monetary we have had a massive stimulus from the weaker £ and now inflation looks like rising above target so rates will rise in 2017. Lets hope folk are prepared for what is to come.

There have been no winners so far... TM perhaps but no walk in the park for her from here.

and we should bloody well be getting on with it.

Why?

As previously discussed, Austrian election and Italian constitutional referendum are finally approaching an outcome
Dutch election along with deadline for Swiss to act on their previous immigration referendum in March
French presidential election in May
German elections in October.

Any of them taken individually could utterly transform the agenda for Brexit negotiations, but you seem to think we should just leap into a minefield both feet first without looking just because the remainders are acting like petulant children who haven't got their own way for the first time in decades.

What's the rush?

We are still going to leave - unfortunately - and we should bloody well be getting on with it.

And I don't want to. Nor will 80% of voters in 18 months time because...

Lets hope folk are prepared for what is to come.

Edit: I'm agreeing with ninfan! I'm actually agreeing with an honest to goodness Brexy. Possibly for entirely different reasons but hey... Waves

What's the rush?

The pre-brexit polls suggested about a third of Tories were opposed to brexit. The swing in Richmond says that those Tories no longer vote Tory. Brexit has given Britain a totally new political landscape. A reinforced SNP, a diminished Tory party, a Labour shambles and a population that will vote for any party of moderation, continuity and a future for their kids.

Any of them taken individually could utterly transform the agenda for Brexit negotiations, [b]but you seem to think we should just leap into a minefield both feet first without looking [/b]just because the remainders are acting like petulant children who haven't got their own way for the first time in decades.

Because this is now a negotiation [b]which has to start[/b]. Uncertainty is BAD for everyone. You cant sit is a silly stalemate for ever. You guys were claiming independence day was the day after, remember? there will always be an excuse eg, elections etc.

We know what the starting points are and we can assume that the end will be somewhere in the middle but skewed towards EU. So lets get it over with. Nothing is going to get better or easier in the interim other than hardening the resolve on those EU who want to beat us up over this.

Funny to look back at the early pages...

teamhurtmore - Member
What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?
Is a very good point - there is a very real need for some sober analysis. I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed - which would be a massive achievement by any standards.

QT was generally awful on the Beeb last night apart from the Lib/Dem and Labour ladies. Worse is to come, no doubt....

POSTED 10 MONTHS AGO #

I had hoped to be proved wrong. And worse of all, this whole thing is irrelevant since no one knows what Europe is going to be in the future other than the status quo IS unsustainable by definition. So on top of the folly that is the € we have added a second folly in the referendum. Total bollocks, and now some are keen to ignore the whole thing altogether . Ridiculous