Just thought I'd drop into the mix that Churchill thought that greater European integration and the element of shared sovereignty that went with it was a good thing. From a speech by Chris Patten. By a Tory about a Tory, rather interestingly they've not always been utterly bonkers, just our hard luck the bonkers ones appear to have taken over...

In 1950 Robert Schuman made his proposal for pooling French and German coal and steel production under a supranational authority. In the Commons debate that followed, Churchill said this:
"We are asked in a challenging way: 'are you prepared to part with any degree of national sovereignty in any circumstances for the sake of a larger synthesis ?' …The Conservative and Liberal Parties say, without hesitation, that we are prepared to consider, and if convinced to accept, the abrogation of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the conditions and safeguards…[We] declare that national sovereignty is not inviolable, and that it may be resolutely diminished for the sake of all men in all the lands finding their way home together."
In a speech to the Congress of Europe two years before, in 1948, he had observed that although "closer political unity…involves some sacrifice or merger of national sovereignty" such a sacrifice might be viewed as "the gradual assumption by all the nations concerned of that larger sovereignty which can alone protect their diverse and distinctive customs and characteristics of their national traditions."
In other words, Churchill advocated both the integrity of the nation state and the need to share sovereignty the better to protect it and to promote its interests.

[url= http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-02-191_en.htm ]Full speech here[/url] Given in 2002

IMO Brexit has happened not because those who voted for it have any good reasons, but more because those who see the value of the EU (including people like me who've worked and lived in Europe, the saner elements of UK government (most MPs infact) and the EU institutions and figureheads themselves have utterly failed to sell its benefits and explain the deal in terms of what we give away in order to gain these benefits. Hence we've been comprehensively beaten by Far Right bluster and propaganda... the man on the street has no proper argument to counter it...

IMO Brexit has happened not because those who voted for it have any good reasons, but more because those who see the value of the EU (including people like me who've worked and lived in Europe, the saner elements of UK government (most MPs infact) and the EU institutions and figureheads themselves have utterly failed to sell its benefits and explain the deal in terms of what we give away in order to gain these benefits

People aren't stupid

They see cadburys etc. close a factory in England, dismantle the production line and move it to Poland, making the same things then shipping them here in a wagon - and you expect them not to be pissed at that? You think that politicians can spin their way out of that?

They see cadburys etc. close a factory in England, dismantle the production line and move it to Poland, making the same things then shipping them here in a wagon - and you expect them not to be pissed at that? You think that politicians can spin their way out of that?

and leaving the EU stops that how?

People aren't stupid

and leaving the EU stops that how?

Well, I'm sure most of us could articulate the many reasons why companies might be more likely to relocate after we leave, but few could say why it might stop it happening, unless the goods made are only bought by the people inside our new tiny market.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/15/jp-morgan-landmark-office-dublin-brexit

more good new i am sure all will agree.

They see cadburys etc. close a factory in England, dismantle the production line and move it to Poland, making the same things then shipping them here in a wagon - and you expect them not to be pissed at that? You think that politicians can spin their way out of that?

Doesn't need spin. Just needs someone to point out the stuff that we make that is shipped elsewhere. It's two way traffic.

and leaving the EU stops that how?

Quite - hence I wrote:

IMO Brexit has happened not because those who voted for it have any good reasons

What Kraft did (a US company I might point out) may well have been lousy behaviour and may have come about because they took advantage of free movement of goods and the single market but the crooks to go after are not the EU! The crooks to go after are Kraft and their shareholders...

There's good reasons and there's misapprehension based on ill-informed sentiment based on the UK feeling down on its luck...

Leaving the EU will not stop rapacious capitalists doing stuff in their own interests! If we want the UK to be successful and provide jobs, maybe end our dependence on debt-led consumer spending and insane house price speculation... and invest in training, education, infrastructure, building new businesses etc - and none of these are failing to happen because of the EU - they're the decisions of our governments desperate for the votes of a childlike electorate unwilling to face some hard truths about our the real state of our economy...

the crooks to go after are not the EU! The crooks to go after are Kraft and their shareholders...

EU rules, EU grant money - see also Twinings: https://www.ft.com/content/74ab02a6-fd85-11df-a049-00144feab49a

EU rules, EU grant money

Kraft - American company
Capitalism - global
Shareholders - global

Diagnosis that it was a dirty thing to do - correct
Assumption that the only important element was our membership of the EU - wrong.
Assumption that rapacious international capitalism will leave us alone when we leave the EU - wrong.

Scapegoat the EU if you like but life aint that simple IME...

Oh, and having read that FT article on Twinings - pay attention to this:

EU rules specifically forbid grants from its structural funds from going to subsidise the relocation of businesses. But a joint investigation by the Financial Times and the non-profit Bureau for Investigative Journalism found companies ranging from British tea maker Twinings to automotive company Valeo were at the very least receiving EU subsidies to help with the establishment of new factories, the extension of existing ones and the training of workers in their new homes.

so, once again, Leavers basing their view on ill-informed sentiment and blaming the EU for the failures of others! The EU specifically forbids funds to be used like this but Twinings have manipulated their way round it - the fault is with Twinings and the demands of their shareholders, not the EU!

[quote> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/15/jp-morgan-landmark-office-dublin-brexit

more good new i am sure all will agree.

My brother lives in Dublin - and looking at all the cash pouring into the financial district he reckons that if for any reason the banks don't ever move in then on the scale the developers/speculators expect then Dublin's in for another big property bust

Assumption that the [b]only[/b] important element was our membership of the EU - wrong.

Who said it was?

The issue here is that it's the one element that the voters of this country were able to decide to take back control of.

ninfan - desperate brexiteer

They see cadburys etc. close a factory in England, dismantle the production line and move it to Poland, making the same things then shipping them here in a wagon - and you expect them not to be pissed at that? You think that politicians can spin their way out of that?

But Mondelez, the new owners of Cadbury's say:

We would like to reassure consumers that any claims that Bournville is no longer at the heart of Cadbury production are wholly untrue,’ a Mondelez spokeswoman said.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/01/15/cadbury-denies-moving-dairy-milk-production-to-poland-6382639/

More complicated than the Brexiteers might have us believe.

Irrelevant anyway, since we're going to be an outward looking global economy, open for any random foreigners with hard currency to come and asset strip whatever they fancy. If you don't like that, and prefer some protectionism, you should have voted to remain.

So, the EU will now stop helping companies relocate from the UK to the poorer EU counties (instead of low cost non-EU countiries) because… why exactly? How does us leaving the EU mitigate this problem in ANY way?

The issue here is that it's the one element that the voters of this country were able to decide to take back control of.

As I said - pure sentiment, the desire for control by a country feeling sore about its loss of place in the world - scapegoating the EU - we also have control over our national governments, our own feelings and our own ability to refuse to feel comforted by Far Right nationalist populism!

Like I said - look to your own government, your own emotions and how you use your vote instead of scapegoating the EU!

So where are all the remainers votes going? Labour have more or less said Brexit is on if they get in power, yet the LibDem share of the vote is falling - into single digits in some polls now.
Has it been accepted as a done deal with folks now deciding based on how we leave rather than whether we leave?

How have you taken back control ?

I think the vast majority are thoroughly bored of it and just want it over with. They might not be so resigned when they see what "over with" actually means in practice.

Brexit and a Tory landslide. What's not to like ?

what if corbyn gets in?

jambalaya - Member
Brexit and a Tory landslide. What's not to like ?

What's not to like ?

Well seeing as we are cuddling up to the US how long till we get this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/opinion/noncompete-agreements-workers.html?_r=0

whats not to like about bonded servitude?

I see a lot of civil unrest in both America and the UK's future.

Particularly with Jamba's "Brexit and a Tory landslide".

That's probably what's not to like - because we all enjoy strikes and riots don't we? Remember the 80s - that was the last Tory landslide government and it was a bad time.

Oh yes and borrowing. As someone pointed out Tory governments tend to borrow more than Labour ones - so expect austerity and borrowing (but tax cuts for the wealthy - which might help me on one level, but I actually believe in a society with opportunity for all and you don't get that from the Tories).

Brexit and a Tory landslide. What's not to like ?

That just looks like a gloat - which is why I suspect your pronouncements get so much criticism and anger in response.

If you're a Tory and you voted out then of course there's plenty to like.

But for the c30% of the population who voted Remain and the c30% who didn't vote (bearing in mind most of those who voted out will be dead by the time the deal is actually delivered) it's an appalling situation - really appalling.

30% + 30% = a majority of the population so don't you see why gloating about your 'victory' might actually be a rather stupid and dangerous thing to do?

For those who aren't Tory tribalists there's also plenty not to like...

You really really need to get some empathy and concern for others and the fact their preferences and views are different from yours if you want some respect and want people to listen to you...

You really really need to get some empathy and concern for others and the fact their preferences and views are different from yours if you want some respect and want people to listen to you...

Did you hear that Jambalaya?!!! Stop being mean OR ELSE!

Brexit and a Tory landslide. What's not to like

Taken out of the EU by a bunch of ****s and ruled over by a shower of ****s that were voted in by even more ****s.

That's a heck of a lot of ****s to be dealing with,

Well seeing as we are cuddling up to the US how long till we get this

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/opinion/noncompete-agreements-workers.html?_r=0

whats not to like about bonded servitude?

Also the company I work for in the states also enforces non compete clauses if they lay you off...
So think about that. You lose your job, health insurance and ability to work in your area of expertise for 1 year.. Bunch of twunts...

Oh isn't the EU evil - protecting us from unscrupulous business practices....

[url= https://www.ft.com/content/0765175e-396a-11e7-821a-6027b8a20f23 ]£220m fine for drugs company[/url]

Yeah, really evil. Fing clowns want to bring something down that benefits us all. See how you feel when your life saving medicine increases 1500% in price!

Have we done the minimum wage now being higher in Germany and France than it is here?
Brexit — power to the overlooked and underpaid — or the exact opposite of that?
All UK low paid workers now worse off… before you even look at cost of living changes starting to hit home.

I see Macron has been off to see Merkel.

I thought her political career was dead in the water wasn't it?

Brexit and a Tory landslide. What's not to like ?

why xenophobia, brexit, the idea of capping immigration and even nationalism is just fantasy

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/theres-no-such-thing-pure-european-or-anyone-else

Brexit and a Tory landslide. What's not to like ?

Germans not on our side despite the number of Brexiters insisting they will save us as they have so much to lose

German industrialists have warned that British hopes of their support in Brexit negotiations are misplaced and could backfire with dangerous consequences for international trade.

Business leaders in Europe’s biggest economy are instead calling on Conservatives to rethink their commitment to leaving the single market, even though the party has doubled down on this promise in its election manifesto.

David Davis and Boris Johnson have repeatedly cited likely pressure from German exporters, such as carmakers, as a reason for thinking they can persuade European negotiators to maintain free trade access after Britain leaves.

But the theory is increasingly rejected by those whose support they need most – scepticism relayed most forcefully by Steffen Kampeter, chief executive of the German employers’ federation, on a trip to the UK this week.

“The top priority of European business is the integrity of the single market; the second priority is making good business with the UK. We will see if there is a conflict, but the message is: do not harm the single market by cherry-picking deals,” he told a conference of British business leaders in London this week.

“It’s not the German carmakers that are directing the negotiations,” added Kampeter, who said he knew of no one who thought a trade deal within 18 months was possible and called for “rhetorical disarmament on all sides”.

Has Turkey joined yet?

2 days late, but thought it worth posting a reminder that the idiots in charge aren't the only idiots. The worst case scenario is a VERY bad scenario.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-bombing-survivors-living-nightmare-of-1974-blasts-1.3086803

So here's a thought - apologies if it's not original:

Would it be better to have someone doing the negotiations who wasn't actually responsible for pushing the whole thing through? i.e. Corbyn.

I'd certainly expect a more concilatory tone from my opponents if I was simply trying to clean up a mess created by someone else.

Would it be better to have someone doing the negotiations who wasn't actually responsible for pushing the whole thing through? i.e. Corbyn.

It's not Corbyn vs May anyway, it's Starmer vs Davies, which puts rather a different spin on things...

Yes I agree. It should be a cross party committee.

May and her crew tossing out soundbites to keep her backbenchers happy and ensure that all the kippers come back to the fold have done a really good job of pissing off the EU , Before the negotiations have even started!

Not to mention her weak and wobbly leadership and election campaign exposing her weaknesses and insecurity

Corbs and Starmer a much safer bet than Maybot and Crazy old Davis !

I see today that the bathing water numbers are out and the UK is second worst in Europe, not hard to imagine what scrapping red tape means.

based on mays recent backpedalling on a few thinks it may nont happen at all

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-chief-negotiator-michel-barnier-we-are-ready-brexit-talks-a7750311.html

What's that more calm and rational statements from the eu. Ready to negotiate and no threats. Must be a misprint.

Well, we've got a couple more weeks of electioneering, then a govt to form and eventually someone might get round to thinking about brexit plans.

No rush, there's oodles of time to negotiate everything. Assuming your plan entails nothing more detailed than causing a rupture and walking out. Which, let's face it, is the only way this is going to end.

Not sure which thread this should go in. And, well, what?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/25/trump-worried-about-brexit-impact-on-us-jobs

Chewkw - help us out - Trump says Brexit is bad. Is he wrong or right?

He's a wrong'un if that helps...

From the Huff....

Just for fun of course.... 😉

[b]Brexit Briefing: Plucky Brits Take Migration Target Into Their Own Hands[/b]
Brits Are So Keen To Get Net Migration Down They Are Leaving The Country To Help Out.
Pop open the English sparkling wine and celebrate, all you Brexiteers! Net migration is down – officially! We are finally taking back control!
Figures from the Office for National Statistics published today showed that net migration for 2016 was 248,000 – a drop of 84,000 from 2015.
Of that, the number of people coming into the UK was 588,000 - 43,000 fewer than in 2015.
Some 339,000 people left the UK - up from 299,000 in the previous year.
Of those who emigrated, 40% (134,000) were British citizens.
This should make us proud. It is clear that thousands of Leave voters are so determined to help the Prime Minister achieve her net migration target they are fleeing the country to make it happen. That is dedication to the cause.

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_5925e44ee4b062f96a337daa?

And how many of those leaving are the ones with decent prospects. Sooner May gets the planes and ferries shut down the sooner we can stop the escape attempts. We don't need a wall, look at the moat that God has given us....

We don't need a wall, look at the moat that God has given us....

🙂

Joking aside thats one of the advantages my French relatives say we have

Not as much use now they've invented boats and planes. 😉

Also only useful if you're being defensive. If your looking outward it becomes a barrier.

Not as much use now they've invented boats and planes.

If your looking outward it becomes a barrier.

That little stretch of water is no barrier at all compared to the new beuocractic barriers likely in less than 2 years time…

Nice to see the labour supporters now saying a vote for Corbin is like having a second referendum on Europe.....screams of doing anything to get votes

Should political parties be made to tell truths rather than complete bollocks to get a majority

Seems to be the norm

link to your claim please about labour ta.

It seems ,of late, that the accepted way to win elections - trump , brexit etc- is to lie and promise things you know are not true and you have no intention of delivering. Vast swathes of the electorate are too stupid to realise this.

the moat is great if you want to be an isolationist or you want to repel a navy invading you with sailing ships
Little use against terrorism and global warming and the sort of real issues we face today in an global and interconnected world.

the moat is great if you want to be an isolationist or you want to repel a navy invading you with sailing ships

@igm 🙂 morning. The places we should be forging deeper relationships need a plane to get to.

Those immigration stats where fascinating, would be very interesting to see a real analysis of who left and why. Sadly I don't think we collect the required data or if we do we wouldn't publish. Just like the Referendum we aren't given the detailed information

Not as much use now they've invented boats and planes.

Well if they don't start talking soon there won't be any legal flights to worry about. Walking out is not an option unlike the idiots keep on claiming.

Should political parties be made to tell truths rather than complete bollocks to get a majority

One thing that i think should be introduced from the original athenian model of democracy, trials, politicians at the end of their tenure were tried and in the worst case executed for failure. Might sharpen politicians minds if they understood that they would be bankrupted, be jailed, etc if they lie to the electorate.

The places we should be forging deeper relationships need a plane to get to.

Which is the point, it isn't going to happen, trade is always most with near neighbours because they are near. Being in the EU hasn't hampered Germany, so maybe the issue is our politicians are crap?

i think it was in the guardian , not sure if they're supporters of corbyns party or the others seems 20 April jezza he said not going to happen from 25th of April lots of others running stories similar to the labour might just hold a second with thing

Cynic in me says way to win an election is to leak hints that something could happen but have no intention whatsoever

Almost as good as stable and stable may back peddling every time her office find out somethings not a popular idea and we will lose votes

Is there an election thread here on are I need advice on spoiling my ballot paper

Being in the EU hasn't hampered Germany, so maybe the issue is our politicians are crap?

Might sharpen politicians minds if they understood that they would be bankrupted, be jailed, etc if they lie to the electorate.

Not as much use now they've invented boats and planes

The places we should be forging deeper relationships need a plane to get to.

Goods tend to travel by boat to and from such places, no?
Are are you still only thinking about the sector you have worked in as regards this whole Brexit business?

Just like the Referendum we aren't given the detailed information

SO you are admitting folk did not know what they were voting for then ?

TBH the lack of facts did not stop leavers making them up so why be so coy now?

Junkyard - lazarus

SO you are admitting folk did not know what they were voting for then?

I think I can help here.

I believe that Jamba didn't mean folk did not know what they were voting for, but that we don't have the detailed information of who voted and why.

I think if you read this post:

[b]Those immigration stats where fascinating, would be very interesting to see a real analysis of who left and why. Sadly I don't think we collect the required data or if we do we wouldn't publish. Just like the Referendum we aren't given the detailed information [/b]

that you partially quoted, but this time paying attention to the parts I have highlighted, you may be better equipped to comprehend.

PM if you need further assistance. 🙂

Jamby will indeed appreciate your attempt at delivering an answer that has no basis in fact 😉

Well why they left is easy as regards the Brits leaving.

They thought there was a better life elsewhere. Next.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/30/painstaking-detail-brexit-process-revealed-eu-documents

May (and the UK) looking pretty amateurish.

May et al look like fools. More so every time she speaks.
THM, the former resident of this thread, and I argued over May's competence a while back. It gives me no joy to be shown to be correct.

EU suits Germany as it has an artificially depressed exchange rate making it's exports much more attractive than they would be under a freely floating Deutsch Mark. It has a large trade surplus making tariff free exports very appealing.

Greece making noises about defaulting unless it gets formal debt relief. Groundhog day.

May is totally smashing it @igm

THM, the former resident of this thread, and I argued over May's competence a while back. It gives me no joy to be shown to be correct.

Have to agree, the outcome of the "negotiations"* is going to be bad for the UK, the level of delusion is quite something. I am still wondering how they intend to keep aircraft in the air when they walk away with no deal.

*you can use the word but i really don't see much happening, the UKs hand really isn't that strong!

and just popped up on my twitter feed,

David Davis we have over 100 pages of detail in our brexit documents.....

Wow, over 100 pages.... to cover everything....

May is totally smashing it @igm

🙄

the level of delusion is quite something

Yes.......

May is smashing it lol.
If Brexit is a pinata filled with shit, then yes and it's about to rain down on us all

She's had to ditch strong and Stable because that'd become an epitath rather than a slogan

Now it's 'No Deal Is Better Than A Deal'

Except we know that's just as much of a lie, out of the customs union means car/aerospace etc industry stuffed thanks to supply chains
All those things that Davis keeps hinting we might keep, like EMA EIB, European patent office etc
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nick-clegg-brexit-theresa-may-terrorism-manchester-threat-to-national-security-a7760891.html ]
And the Torries dismissing Cleggs warning that we could be cut out of schengen info database, because we will definitely get a deal on that one
[/url]

Unless this No Deal stuff is just nonsense to keep the Brexit knuckle draggers happy?

David Davis we have over 100 pages of detail in our brexit documents.....

Truly incompetent. 😯

He must have meant that he had 100 pages of detail interspersed with 1000's of pages of red, white and blue paper and a few reams of blank sheets to bulk it out.

So apparently:

'Our economic prosperity will suffer, jobs and livelihoods will be put at risk, and with them the security and peace of mind of working families'

There you have it. It's official. May says Brexit is going to be awful if anyone screws up the negotiations. That wasn't in the Leave campaign's blurb.

There you have it. May says Brexit is going to be awful if anyone screws up the negotiations. That wasn't in the Leave campaign's blurb.

it was a stupid idea a year ago, and its still a stupid idea

all the MPs know it, including May, but are charging on toward the cliff edge anyway 😯

May is electioneering and quite rightly pointing out that the only alternative PM is Corbyn propped up by the SNP which would be a Brexit negotiating disaster.

May is very very popular. Not with the Tory haters here of course but she is very popular with the ex Labour voters who have defected to UKIP and she is popular with those on the left who think Corbyn is incompetent.

We will get the results on June 9th

May is totally smashing it @igm

Oh I agree Jamba, except smashing it might mean something different to me.

She's just not competent.