no threshold set not a minimum participation level. We cant re-write the rules juts because we got a result we dont like.
That's just one aspect of my issue with it, but as it was essentially an opinion poll, then technically there doesn't need to be a rewrite of the rules because there weren't any rules, it was simply a vage question open to all sorts of misunderstanding of what spin was put on it, and spin it they did. Then ran away.
Where's mr. Brexit farage now? he's an MEP, shouldn't he be in the thick of it, building bridges for a better exit deal? That's what he's paid for afterall, but the best he can muster is to attend one or two EU meetings a year where he basically runs up massive expenses bill that the tax payer has to foot, and insults his European peers.
No he's in America schmoozing trump and furthering his personal agenda..
Bastion of integrity is nigel.
That said if 60+% of participants voted leave it would at least be a bit more compelling..but we didn't, we essentially had a stalemate. This raises enough doubt to make a rethink of the question far more compelling than blindly going along with it.
I perfectly understand that is part of EU agreement to have freedom of movement without having to wave your passport around like visa etc. i.e. part of the "rule of the club".
No it's not that.
Guess an alternative conclusion we could come to is that your refusal to call for another euro ref is that you think it would probably lead to another Scottish ref. And you're scared of that, you do protest too much...
You could, but it would be flawed. Massively so.
But Joe who in their right mind would want independence from a successful union with high levels of devolved power but full membership of an unsuccessful monetary union with no/little sovereignty over monetary and fiscal policy? Of all the illogical ideas bandied around that takes the shortbread biscuit.
Its not my refusal by the way. I simply want to get to an end to this awful situation of uncertainty. It screws business decisions more than the end result.
Matty - that was a vague question!?! Be serious...
so what happens if we have a second vote and its 48/52 the other way, do we have another, and another, and another?
Frankly, I would prefer to see less of Farage. Much less.
A new referendum is the worst of all possible worlds.
no leaving the EU is the worst possible outcome. Anything to stop that would be better.
that was a vague question!?! Be serious...so what happens if we have a second vote and its 48/52 the other way, do we have another, and another, and another?
No that would not be sensible, but given the highly controversial, questionable situation, and it's far-reaching deep impacting consequences a second referendum would be more logical, and still have parliamentary ratification. either that or just call the whole thing off as the travesty it is.
Tbe fact it was such a close vote, to me at least suggests two issues.
1. The question was too vague.
2. The voters were not sufficiently informed to make a confident and informed choice.
It's as vague as my mate texting me saying lets go for a pint, immediate questions spring to mind, where will we go for a pint? is the pub nice? Who will be attending? Its the beer good? Is it reasonably priced? Are there extra expenses such as taxi fares?
Of course I know my mate, if he is that vague, he means down the local, which in this analogy, the local is the EU.
No that would not be sensible,
Good so lets not go there
but given the highly controversial, questionable situation, and it's far-reaching deep impacting consequences a second referendum would be more logical,
Woops, that didnt last long
and still have parliamentary ratification. either that or just call the whole thing off as the travesty it is.
ah, we dont like the result, so lets ignore it.
The referendum on Thursday, 23 June [b]is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union[/b].
Just a wee reminder of the vague question....
ah, we dont like the result, so lets ignore it.
So just to clarify your position, do you think 'a' government should have supreme power over the courts and parliament to make up or amend laws willy nilly regardless of the consequences?
teamhurtmore - Member
But Joe who in their right mind would want independence from a successful union with high levels of devolved power but full membership of an unsuccessful monetary union with no/little sovereignty over monetary and fiscal policy? Of all the illogical ideas bandied around that takes the shortbread biscuit.
People that don't really believe the march towards the privatisation of the individual is the way forward. IS may not work, but we're willing to give it a go. We also don't think the future of the UK is as rosy as you think, The uks financies don't look all that much better than Scotlands.
Anyhow, stop changing the subject. This is about why there should be another ref. I believe my case above is more than compelling. Particularly, as you always tell us "in these post truth times". How you can promote that(which I agree with), and then claim our democracy as valid is a conundrum I'll never understand either.
I too think a second referendum is useless .
i am more angry at the fact that the Leave campaign was based on lies , and big ones too . Every time Boris open his mouth someone should ask him about the £350m a week for the NHS .
I cant see the MP voting agaisnt artcile 50 , Corbynn is a useless politician and other parties are not big enough .
It's funny how, the argument went, that it'll be a race to the bottom under IS too. Brexit becomes reality, and oh look, race to the bottom starts, cut corporation tax!
You can talk about the book of dreams and bullshit coming from the scottish side, fair enough, I agree, it's there. But there's a monumental amount of bullshit coming from the uk side, always has been. It's well laid bare before us all now, for all to see.
People that don't really believe the march towards the privatisation of the individual is the way forward.
Who's manifesto is that from?
IS may not work, but we're willing to give it a go.
Sounds strangely familiar..... *
We also don't think the future of the UK is as rosy as you think, The uks financies don't look all that much better than Scotlands.
😀
Anyhow, stop changing the subject.
OK, appreciate its too close to the nerve to point our the inconsistencies. And its late and none of us want nightmares.
This is about why there should be another ref.
Because we dont like the result, I know that is strangely familiar too...*
I believe my case above is more than compelling.
So do I, but we are in the minority. Tough isnt it?
Particularly, as you always tell us "in these post truth times". How you can promote that(which I agree with), and then claim our democracy as valid is a conundrum I'll never understand either.
The recent Economist leader on the Art of the Lie addresses this very conundrum. Oddly, you seemed less vexed when yS were lying about Scotland but hey ho.
Just a wee reminder of the vague question....
THM, the blurb that came in the booklet means nothing. As we've discovered. That's not what defined it.
So just to clarify your position, do you think 'a' government should have supreme power over the courts and parliament to make up or amend laws willy nilly regardless of the consequences?
No not at all.
The CoJ has slapped the Gov's wrists (rightly so) over this. We should play by the rules shouldn't we? Such as respecting the commitment to deliver the result of the people.
Another wee reminder
This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.
No ifs, no buts, no (only if its remain)
THM, the blurb that came in the booklet means nothing. As we've discovered. That's not what defined it.
mol, get a ....oh, forget it.
Everyone* said before the Referendum Leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market. So that much is crystal clear with regard to Brexit.
Cameron
Osbourne
Gove
Boris
[quote=thecaptain ]A new referendum is the worst of all possible worlds.
let's make it the best of 3
Yes Dave and Co spelled it out
No other country has managed to secure significant access to the single market, without having to:follow EU rules over which they have no real say
pay into the EU
accept EU citizens living and working in their country 27’28
How vague was that? Pity the BSers in his own party cant read admittedly
jamba, you must have seen the widely circulated video with many prominent leave campaigners explicitly suggesting staying in the single market. Since they won the vote, it's reasonable to hold them to their claims. Cameron and Osborne etc are no longer in any position of power.
Everyone* said before the Referendum Leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market.
I seem to remember Boris saying the opposite?
We should play by the rules shouldn't we? Such as respecting the commitment to deliver the result of the people.
That's not one of the rules!
This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.
No ifs, no buts, no (only if its remain)
That document you are quoting - that's not the rules. That's the promise of a previous government led by someone who quit. Remember?
less vexed as the bullshit from both sides was obvious. you seem oo put ys as worse, it wasn't.The recent Economist leader on the Art of the Lie addresses this very conundrum. Oddly, you seemed less vexed when yS were lying about Scotland but hey ho.
Again let's drag it back to the real world.
My business will not employ an additional graduate IT techie this year (we have the work) but I would rather the rest of the team run around and cover the work just in case it goes tits up. This is the basic methodology of a SME do I invest £30k (12 months salary laptops phone trying courses NI pension) or do I keep the cash knowing it would keep us out of the shit for a month or two? It's very very simple...
Jamba (and some others) - this may help
Some of the Brexy-boys talking about what leave actually meant - surely they weren't lying?
PS - stick to what the Brexies said, the rest might be built around an agenda
Now then, I'm sure this isn't true or they would have made sure Farage was out of the [s]country[/s] continent.
"The world is closing in
Did you ever think
That we could be so close, like brothers
The future's in the air
I can feel it everywhere..." 😉
Joe, 670 pages of the most "comprehensive BS for an independent country ever published" proves my point. YS trumped the Brexshiteers mere 5 core lies and won overtricks
Plus - and this is the key - I have some sympathy with the Brexshiteers in the sense that unlike our union, the EU is fundamentally flawed in design and execution because of the folly that is the Euro. The rest is just noise. The UK fulfills the conditions required for having a shared currency, which is why it works and is why AS was so keen to keep it - despite the problems this caused for his case of independence. In contrast, the EU doesn't which is why it is rotten at its core.
So this represents a conumdrum doesn't it? Why would Remainers want to remain in something that is rotten at its core. Simple. The EU is fundamentally about maximising trade and investment. So the smart play is to work out how to maximise these benefits while minimising the weaknesses. And hey presto, we had it. Membership,but without the euro, Shengen etc, it's really doesn't get better than this. But we have chosen instead to throw this all away. Although in reality we wil end up with a watered down version that is not as good but as the French say. Tant pis.
In contrast the YS BSers' approach maximises the weaknesses and minimises the benefits. Pull out of a working union with its benefits and with whom trade and investment is concentrated and enter one where trade is much lower and under terms that commit you to joining a flawed economic and political construct.
Hence you win the BS prize by a country mile. That is some record to out-trump the three Brexshiteers and Farage by such a margin.
So the scoreboard of posttruth politics goes
1= Wee donny and wee nippy
3rd The Brexshiteers
@igm there has been much news coverage of that video with makers called out for such a [b]blatant misrepresentation[/b], they've cut off sentences half way through and quoted things massively out of context. When you see the whole clips you realise what a disgraceful video it is.
Andrew Neil (Sunday Politics?) gave the maker a dressing down like I have rarely seem before on TV. Clips on facebook page of the programme I recall.
I seem to remember Boris saying the opposite?
Boros and Gove both said we wouod leave on the Andrew Marr show. Both sides said we'd leave [b]THE[/b] Single Market - Remain used it as a threat, Leave said it was necessary to end freedom of movement and control of ECJ. We voted leave in the full knowledge indeed expectation we would leave [b]THE[/b] single market. The discussion is then what if any trade deal we have instead.
Merkel expressed regret and dissapointment that Trump is cancelling tje Pacific Trade Partnership, she is well aware the US/EU TTIP deal she has supported is dead too.
TMH there is so much more fundamentally wrong with the EU than the euro. However getting the money wrong is fatal on it's own.
Sanity is starting a resurgence ..
Manchester, Oxford St. Shop window, Nov 2016.
[img] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cx48HmjWgAAE4Oq?format=jpg&name=large [/img]
thm, you seem to think I'm imcapabale of seeing the SNP bullshit. I don't really need your childish snipes to see it clearly. Unlike yourself when it comes to the UKs bullshit.
Except that nobody knows what is going to happen Jambalaya.
Well you say that, but....
[img] 
[/img]
molgrips - MemberI seem to remember Boris saying the opposite?
that's the great thing about changing your mind with the wind and saying whatever is convenient today- whatever way it turns out, whatever turns out to be true, Boris has been there and done that.
He is prepared for whatever happens.
He agrees with everything, even if opposite views.
thm, you seem to think I'm imcapabale of seeing the SNP bullshit.
On the contrary, I know that you can. Its so easy isn't it? I'm just here to help those who can't 😉
So I can put you down with the majority of your countrymen as a NO in a second vote. Progress.
TMH there is so much more fundamentally wrong with the EU than the euro.
Not really. Its is flawed below the waterline by the Euro, agreed. This is a great pity because the rest is very solid and works well and to our enormous benefit in terms of trade and investment and social issues. This is precisely why Brexshiteers have to lie consistently including the five core untruths or focus on irrelevant noise such as the mirage of health tourism. QED
that's the great thing about changing your mind with the wind and saying whatever is convenient today- whatever way it turns out, whatever turns out to be true, wee eck and wee nippy have been there and done that.
FTFY
just to bring that up again ( sorry ). chap on radio 4 yesterday morning was explaining that the ( little ) big problem of nhs tourism was people who had no right of residence ( ie not EU ) coming here, then showing up at a medical entre 4 weeks before due date of pregnancy - ie too late to be allowed to fly. so they can't go back.
mechanisms to prevent that from happening are apparently prohibitively expensive. certainly nothing that brexit will solve.
mechanisms for getting the money back from EU citizens who receive treatment ( as already pointed out ) work, mostly.
[I]that's the great thing about changing your mind with the wind and saying whatever is convenient today- whatever way it turns out, whatever turns out to be true, Boris has been there and done that. [/I]
You know what, I was watching Teresa May at the CBI and absolutely thought this of her - that is "saying what the audience wants to hear".
Looking back, since DC ran away she's pretty much said what she thought everyone wanted to hear, at the time she said it - and I guess she was no different earlier (Goldman Sachs speech), but I've not 'followed' her really before.
Did I just accidentally come into the scottish independence thread, or is this now officially the EU Referendum And Whatever THM Wants To Talk About thread?
NW to understand these individual events we need to understand the wider context - protest and gesture politics, post truth politics and authoiritarian populism. These span the two independence referendums and the US elections and will effect forthcoming EU elections.
They are dangerous trends based on flawed premises. History suggests that the results of these trends can be catastrophic especially when those who feel disenfranchised realise that they are being let down by gesture politics and the group of narcissists that lie behind it.
Northwind - Member
Did I just accidentally come into the scottish independence thread, or is this now officially the EU Referendum And Whatever THM Wants To Talk About thread?
He's just avoiding the subject, cause he knows I'm right about another EU ref! 😆
Only £122 billion pounds black hole. Value for money?
Davies and the brexiters continually undermining May
briefing against her again
Only £122 billion pounds black hole. Value for money?
But Samuel Tombs, chief economist at Pantheon Macroeconomics, says: "We expect further upward revisions to the borrowing forecasts in future as growth falls short of the OBR’s expectations and as the Government backslides on the big consolidation planned for 2019/20, just before the next election
The next time a Conservative politician talks about getting the debt under control, direct them to page 14 of the OBR’s economic and fiscal outlook.It shows that Britain’s national debt is expected to hit £1.945trn by 2019-20, the end of the current parliament, and continue climbing to £1.952trn by 2021-22.
seeing as the brexit vote was triggered by Camerons inability to handle his own Eurosceptic MPs and the tory press, is it now time to acknowledge that its the Tories who are a disaster for our economy 😀
It is ok Jambalaya is going to tell us it is Corbyn fault.
They are dangerous trends based on flawed premises. History suggests that the results of these trends can be catastrophic especially when those who feel disenfranchised realise that they are being let down by gesture politics and the group of narcissists that lie behind it.
and what happens next when Brexit fails, because it will fail to solve the problems that most expect it to solve.
Which group will be the scapegoat this time?
Which group will be the scapegoat this time?
Go far enough down "their" list and we are all on it.
Only £122 billion pounds black hole. Value for money?
Yes but by leaving the EU we are saving £10 billion a year - so that's all good 😕
