For those who object to Verhofstadt's mild mannered and polite Tweet I refer you to the OTT performances of Boris and Faridge and their insulting behaviour over the last year. The longer this drags on and the more anti-Europe hype from British politicians the more negative reactions I'm hearing. It's gone from surprise about the leave vote, and mild dismay to, in some cases at least, "un malin plaisir".
I think I'll join in, it changes the whole situation from something to deplore to something to smile about. Like watching an [url=
karma Youtube.[/url].
igm - MemberApparently NINfan will be singing "Hurt"
It'll be Piggy... "Nothing's turning out the way I planned".
GrahamS - since when is it a war for public opinion on this point?
I'd say politics is ALWAYS a war for public opinion. We just had a referendum where public opinion was felt even more strongly than usual and other countries in the EU face public pressure on immigration and freedom of movement and will soon have elections and possibly similar referendums.
Fair enough if the press had pushed back in this way, but not Verhofstadt given his role.
Look around at the press. Plenty of the quoting Boris' "Bollocks" comments.
How many of them have bothered to fact check them?
For some it is not in their editorial interest to do so, for some others they just don't do that type of journalisam.
However if Verhofstadt tweets back then at least there is a chance that may be reported (even if it negatively).
Apparently NINfan will be singing "Hurt"
Oooh the Johnny Cash song from Old Man Logan? I love that one.
Did NIN do a cover of it?
😉
Hmm, a restrictive reading of article 3 ignores that it only applies for the purposes in article 2TItle iii (Article 48-51) lays out in more detail what was actually proposed, in that it extended only to workers
Not that difficult, this is something that has been long since highlighted, but the issue was that the UK government chose not to do anything about it. Easier to blame Brussels than actually come clean and state that they couldn't be arsed to implement the laws that already existed.
An ex-colleague on my facebook feed describing how much of a struggle she had trying to get her husband to be allowed to stay in the UK. Lots of her friends also had similar issues.
This is what 'control' looks like.
Otherway round Graham. Though I actually prefer the Cash version.
Wikipedia"Hurt" is a song written by Trent Reznor first released on Nine Inch Nails' 1994 album The Downward Spiral. It received a Grammy Award nomination for Best Rock Song in 1996 but ultimately lost to Alanis Morissette's "You Oughta Know". In 2002, "Hurt" was covered as a swan song by country music star Johnny Cash to commercial and critical acclaim. It attracted praise from Reznor for its "sincerity and meaning" while ending up being one of Cash's final hits released before his death, the related music video being considered one of the greatest of all time by publications such as NME.
(I think he knows that, igm)
Then he got me.
American IV is a superb album.
As THM says a compromise will be reached. Germany and Merkel in particular have no desire to really enforce the freedom of movement anymore, as she wants to reduce it as well, to stop her support ebbing away.
However, one thing I disagree with THM on is that in the end we will have slightly more expensive trade and less investment, I don't see that as necessarily the case, as the UK can look outwards of the EU. We have many competitive advantages, but they won't come to us on a plate, we need get out there and get them.
We do and could do that anyway - most of out major trading partners were covered under EU trade arrangements which were unlikely to be less advantageous than EU ones - but fair cop, my comment of trade and investment was more of a hunch 😉 odd that Woppit didnt choose that one!!
Still hard to see why trade would be easier or less costly or why investment would be more attractive (ceteris paribus)
TM went to look at India and it didn't go to plan.
Still hard to see why trade would be easier or less costly or why investment would be more attractive
That ^^
I spent many years in mid 90s and mid 2000s trying to help foreign companies access India - its a bloody slow process that requires the patience of Gandhi!
As THM says a compromise will be reached. Germany and Merkel in particular have no desire to really enforce the freedom of movement anymore, as she wants to reduce it as well, to stop her support ebbing away.
Probably true - it's a shame such compromise couldn't have come before we reached the breaking point of the referendum. I think if the EU had offered even some relatively minor compromise on FoM (e.g. national limits on numbers) then it would have persuaded many people to stay.
However, one thing I disagree with THM on is that in the end we will have slightly more expensive trade and less investment, I don't see that as necessarily the case, as the UK can look outwards of the EU.
As THM says, the EU has trade agreements with most of the countries we want to trade with and is working on more.
My argument is that when we are negotiating trade agreements we are in a more powerful negotiating position if we can offer access to a EU-wide market with harmonised standards and ~510 million potential customers, rather than UK market with its own standards and just ~64 million potential customers.
Freed from the EU we can perhaps move faster, but we also offer less.
depends where we are in the queue 😉
Otherway round Graham. Though I actually prefer the Cash version.
Yer I know, I was just teasing ninfan. There are lots of kiddies finding the song because of the Old Man Logan film trailer, who have never heard of Cash, never mind the NIN original.
And you're right - the Cash version is beautiful.
What do we actually export these days?
Just tripped over this on Facebook, originally from the Guardian:
[i][The Italian Economic Development Minister] also said that he had recently met Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, and that Johnson had told him Italy would grant Britain access to the single market “because you don’t want to lose prosecco exports”. Calenda said he told Johnson that this argument was bogus.
"[Johnson] basically said, ‘I don’t want free movement of people but I want the single market. I said, ‘no way.’ He said, ‘you’ll sell less prosecco.’ I said, ‘OK, you’ll sell less fish and chips, but I’ll sell less prosecco to one country and you’ll sell less to 27 countries.’ Putting things on this level is a bit insulting."[/i]
I think if the EU had offered even some relatively minor compromise on FoM (e.g. national limits on numbers) then it would have persuaded many people to stay.
I'm pretty confident that if Merkel had said 6 months ago that free movement needed to be looked at then that would have been enough to swing the vote. If she had said it last year when Dave pretended to make a deal, the campaign would have been totally different.
According to the Ashcroft poll, a third of leave voters did so because of immigration and border control.
EU possibly realising that they need to take a more sensitive approach to gung-ho integration, due to Brexit being real and other countries thinking about it.
Which is what should've happened - May should've taken the result back to the EU instead of promising to follow it slavishly. But maybe that was the plan all along?
Brexishambles really hurting May at PMQs today
(that and child abuse inquiry- her poor leadership at home office still haunting her)
Its painfully obvious that there is no plan or consensus in government about how to proceed and what exactly we are aiming for
when you are making Corbyn look good, you know you are in trouble!
Or, maybe people are realising that having principles isn't so bad after all?
May and co are in shambles - Johnson being told that what he is saying the deal will be is simply impossible
there is no way the EU will compromise on freedom of movement. Anyone who thinks there will be is back in red queen territory
I wonder if May the Merciless will eventually say "bollocks, I can't deliver this"?
there is no way the EU will compromise on freedom of movement. Anyone who thinks there will be is back in red queen territory
There is a compromise, well it isn't really it is just application of the rules....
From the gov direct website.
New rules for EEA Nationals and returning UK Nationals
From 1 November 2014, EEA nationals with ‘jobseeker’ residency status will be able to claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance for a maximum of six months. EEA nationals with ‘retained worker’ residency status will be able to claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance for a maximum of nine months.
Both EEA jobseekers and EEA retained workers will undergo a Genuine Prospect of Work assessment at three and six months respectively.
From 1 January 2014, before an EEA National or returning UK National can claim income based Jobseekers Allowance they must have been living in the UK, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or the Republic of Ireland for the three months immediately before making your claim for Jobseekers Allowance.
From 1 April 2014, EEA jobseekers will not be able to claim Housing Benefit. If you are already receiving income based Jobseeker’s Allowance and Housing Benefit this will not apply to you.
i.e. no job after so long no right to claim benefits and with it no way to remain. note the dates.....
Thats nothing to do with freedom of movement. The outies keep on trying to sellthe idea that we can have tarriff free access to the single market without freedom of movement. This has been shown to be nonsense and firmly ruled out buy Merkel and others
Its quite amusing to see how different papers have reported what Merkel said - I wonder how many Angela Merkels there are and why they all chose to speak on the same day 😉
tj, what i am trying to say that people coming over and abusing the system which seems to be a big issue amongst the brexiters, isn't an issue beyond the media manipulation and therir are rules in place to deal with it.
If you move around you are free to do so but you can't scrounge off the host nation.
mrmo - how big a deal is so-called "benefit scrounging" (a) in aggregate and (b) involving EU nationals?
I don't think it is an issue, some seem to though. Same as you get the continuous foreigners coming over just to use the NHS complaints, which the NHS can reclaim most of anyway.
Still waiting to see the reaction when people realise that there will be no more booze cruises.
Cougar that logic works as we have a big trade deficit with the EU, if we move to tariffs we will collect £8bn more than we pay out. Italian Banks are on their knees, imo it's certain their whole financal system could not withstand a Greek default and in fact may collpase before then.
We shall see what comes of Merkel's remarks whilst she won't ask for it abandonning freedom of movement would go down bery well in Germany. Remember German Parliament is passing a law meaning no unemployment benefits for EU nationals until you have been resident 5 years (they have a different welfare system so can do this whereas for UK it wouod be an administrative nightmare)
PMQs today was pretty straightforward. Opponents claiming "shambles" where the reality is things are moving ahead exactly as Mrs May said they would. Tory haters here hating the Tories. Same old.
Still waiting to see the reaction when people realise that there will be no more booze cruises.
Let's wait and see what's agreed on beer, wine and spirits. French offer tva refund on exports ?
mrmo I think you'll find the nhs and other eu health services never get refunded. Thats why French want paying upfront.
Let's wait and see what's agreed on beer, wine and spirits. French offer tva refund on exports ?
is there a limit coming back from the Canaries, Switzerland, Norway, infact pretty much the whole world, except the EU.
There is the answer.
You will have to declare imports just as you would coming back from anywhere else in the world.
I don't think it is an issue, some seem to though.
They do and like most Brexshit stuff it doesn't hold up to scrutiny
In reality, Merkel is simply laying down the first set of ground rules for negotiation. Step 1 we might budge on definition/timing but not on the principle. Over to you guys....oh and p.s. can you hurry up please.
In reality, Merkel is simply laying down the first set of ground rules for negotiation. Step 1 we might budge on definition/timing but not on the principle.
And many of the "issues" don't exist beyond the media and the anti EU agenda they have pursued.
mrmo - none of the Brexshiteers 5 key points existed in reality. Their front page was a list of lies
Still waiting to see the reaction when people realise that there will be no more booze cruises.
Woah! Run that one by me again!
Are you saying I won't be able to buy loads of cheap French wine in Calais anymore?
mrmo - none of the Brexshiteers 5 key points existed in reality. Their front page was a list of lies
and 40 years of bullshit sees us where we are, Westminster at least is revealed as completely clueless. So i guess one good thing is emerging from this!
Pity that so many people will have their lives negatively affected in the fallout.
We can't blame the EU for us not claiming back health monies due.
But, we do need to be aware because we don't charge our own citizens (at point of care) there aren't any systems in place to easily count and charge non-citizens costs.
While putting these systems in place would IME would be seriously expensive, as in billions, not millions in both implementation and running costs it isn't beyond the wit of man to set up an online facility that is accessible by all trusts etc that could at a minimum claim back only those folk who admit they're non-UK; ie tourists etc.
Anything else would the get involved in checking compliance etc, which we don't do for anyone - imagine been refused A&E because you couldn't prove who you are, no ID cards here etc.
b r, which if westminster was honest and explained the situation would help. Yes it would cost money to claim back, is that more or less than the amount it costs? The debate is clear. etc etc
[i]The debate is clear. etc etc [/I]
Nah it's not.
Unless you're from a systems background plus understand what is in the NHS plus how it actually works you won't have a clue of the sheer level of cost/complexity behind this.
http://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Six-reasons-why-the-NHS-National-Programme-for-IT-failed
br in simplistic terms it is, cost x benefit y, possible solutions, id cards etc
Granted the detail would be horrifically complex, but then again we asked the average voter did they want to leave the EU......
