mrwhyte - MemberDo people seriously think we could go it alone and have the same negotiating power as the EU? they are the single biggest trading bloc in the world, with huge purchasing power.
Drivel; we are still the 5th largest economy by GDP in the world, the EU will not want to loose their share of our business. There are far smaller nations going it alone, quite happily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29
Our government made the tough calls quickly and decisively. Through Labour, LibCon and now Conservative governments, we have endured varying (real) degrees of austerity. Many EU nations, most notable France did not and are coasting toward major problems.dragon - Member
We sit here on our high horse criticising the EU for struggling to solve some of these incredibly difficult problems whilst doing nothing to help them.Not strictly true we pledged £2.3 billion and have ~ 3 ships in the med picking people up.
I'd argue there hasn't been a coordinated EU response, we have Germany doing one thing and others doing something else. In fact the lack of joined up thinking is making a big problem worse.
we are still the 5th largest economy by GDP in the world, the EU will not want to loose their share of our business.
the comparison is between the entire EU and us and we are way way behind them- 3 v 18.5 from your link - though we need to take the 3 of from us so its just over 5 times our size.
Clearly they are larger so that means they can much easier lose our trade than they ours.
Why do people think they will be gutted to see us go and that we have the stronger negotiating hand? Its madness to think this.
we know we will survive - no one is suggesting we will fold as a country the question is , economically, is it to our advantage to be in the EU or out of it.
I just also read that the wording of the question is very important. Apparently it's looking like something like the following:-
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
I wonder how many people will answer "Yes"? 😳
I'm not suggesting that the EU is blameless in any of these situations, that wasn't the point I was trying to make...
Of course not, but there is still the suggestion that the EU are somehow under strain and somewhat unfortunate victims, when it could be suggested that they cause many of their own problems.
I like the idea of a united europe, but not as it stands. A dictatorial super government it should not be.
Forza, source for that question is?
...and which EU is under discussion, the old one or the future one?
Key issue; my take is that, Germany excepted, more the Europe is in decline than economic ascent.teamhurtmore - Member...and which EU is under discussion, the old one or the future one?
That's true, but my meaning was more to do with the old EU without fiscal/political union or the future one with it?
piemonster - MemberForza, source for that question is?
7th paragraph
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887
If the UK isn't willing to take part in the EU properly, it should leave it.
Doe that go for everyone - theres plenty of EU countries who floit and ignore the rules and just get away with it. If We were had the same attitude nobody would be considering leaving.
Much quicker to list the countries that follow/have ever followed the rules!
Forza, ta very much
Why do people think they will be gutted to see us go and that we have the stronger negotiating hand?
only 8 of the 28 EU nations are net financial contributors to the EU budget, the UK is the third biggest one.
thats a pretty strong negotiating hand.
thats a pretty strong negotiating hand.
You would think so, but it isn't. Every time negotiation has been attempted, it's been a case of "the EU is not a la carte" (in other words shut up and give us your money)
konabunny - Member
I think that the biggest clue comes form the fact that so many of the people who are saying "out" would be a disaster are the same people who, a few years ago, were telling us that it would be a disaster if we didn't join the Euro...Who specifically are you talking about?
The CBI, for one, I understand.
Oh, and I'm very definitely for out. No question about it.
And I'm not going to engage in some long-running discourse about why, I really can't be arsed.
The CBI, for one, I understand.
Yep, add on Mandelson, Clarke, Blair etc.
My vote is out, last time the country had one (or so I am led to believe) was the mid 70's and that was a vote for the common market agreement, europe has changed beyond recognition and we are still here on a 70's vote. I am probably wrong and will no doubt get hained for my view but our country poors millions into europe every single day, our way of life is goverend more and more by a distant organisation that will never be remotely in touch with our daily lives and we continuosly have it shoveled down our throats rules from europe. I am British and proud I am not a European!
I'd argue there hasn't been a coordinated EU response, we have Germany doing one thing and others doing something else. In fact the lack of joined up thinking is making a big problem worse.
What we have is Germany, whether wisely or not (probably for another debate), trying to "do its bit" to help the migrant crisis. Whether you agree with Germany's actions doesn't alter the fact that they are clearly not acting entirely in their own national interest. Every part of the UK's relationship with the EU is judged on how it affects our own self interest. This is not a helpful attitude for a member of the EU to have, as it contributes greatly to the continued lack of "joined up thinking".
I'm not suggesting other EU nations aren't behaving in the same way, I'm suggesting that the EU has become about more than a simple cost-benefit analysis. If we aren't prepared to behave in a more co-operative, assistive manner with a better Europe as our collective goal, there's no point being in the EU.
SOURCe - another one of those mythstheres plenty of EU countries who floit and ignore the rules and just get away with it. If We were had the same attitude nobody would be considering leaving.
the UK is the third biggest one[net contributor].thats a pretty strong negotiating hand.
SO we just pulled that money away from them and we are now trying to negotiate favourable trade terms whilst leaving and not contributing anything to the EU
Yes they will be bending over backwards to make sure we get exactly what we want in that negotiation
😆
Its gives us some negotiating at this point, when still in, but not when we leave For example I doubt the EU would be doing this for one of the smaller nations but there is only so far they will go to try and keep us in the club
Once we do leave they will be scorned and respond in the usual way scorned folk do.
its still madness to think we have a great negotiating position v them when leaving. Its as weak a hand as one can have
We still want to trade but we dont want to pay. Its never ever going to happen like that ever. Look how little he got when we had the threat of money and they were trying to keep us.
pedant mode on:
[i]as a british citizen by a quirk of geography you are also a european, as Britain is technically within the boundaries of western europe, our culture is european in terms of historical interaction, art, music, religion etc.etc.[/i]
Pedant mode off:
However what you want to call yourself is entirely your choice of course.
Like a quite large number of people in this country I would definitely call myself British with European roots of which I am proud.
Of my eight great-grandparents who were born in the last two decades of the 19th century, four were born in England, two were born in Italy, one in Ireland ( although when he was born, Cork was part of the united kingdom) and one in Germany.
edit:
I should of course have said In, but not just because of the above
In, as it's hugely better than the alternative.
What negotiating position? Companies want to sell stuff. They aren't going to give a shit if we're in the EU if they turn a profit from us. Somehow restricting trade from europe will damage the bottom lines of the companies, and therefore european growth.
Saying that they'll turn the taps off is wrong.
Saying that they'll turn the taps off is wrong.
Indeed we will still trade with the EU but nowhere near as easily or as freely as now whilst in the common market
However some seem to think our strong negotiation position means they need us so when we leave they will let us continue to trade unabated- that was the initial point i countered as it fanciful nonsense- as indeed is claiming all trade will cease.
We may get trade but it will come at a price and there will be lots of change
Do we not need each other?
That's the basis of trade, no?
Is this anti-Uk behavior to be expected if we leave? Would have been expected of the rUK if the scots had left?
Also, the further they cast us away, the less likely it would be that we rejoined at a future date.
I dunno. Makes my head hurt.
we are both materially better off with each other but we dont need each other. I think the divorce analogy is the best one here
Couple do many things but cooperate at break up is rarely amongst the choices made and its is so unlikely that we leave yet keep the only bit we want [ free trade] is fanciful
How much either side decides to hurt the other and co operate is anyones guess but no change and free trade is not going to be the outcome - well not without paying and obeying the rules but having no say over them.
Out, and I think that another summer of the migrant crisis will seal it for the 'out' campaign.
I have monitored this thread with great interest most of the day and as a result have read or listened to a variety of sources about the issue of our EU membership. I came from a position of not really caring either way about whether we stayed in or came out as I could see both sides of the argument.
I think the socio-economic arguments will rage backwards and forwards for a long time and must admit I can't really say with any certainty which I believe. However, I started to think about my own attitudes at a very basic, personal level. I have travelled extensively through Europe over the years and have to say I quite like most of the people I have encountered and envy many aspects of the the various societies.
Therefore I have decided I am now firmly in the "in" camp and would really like to see Britain abandon all it's petty objections and really make a go of trying to fix the many problems that the EU face from the inside rather than acting like a surly teenager begrudgingly on holiday with their parents. Just imagine if the French, Germans and British really got together with all the other member states and tried to pull together rather than bickering all the time. It would be nice to see what things would be like if we cooperated a bit more rather than trying to veto all the time.
We still want to trade but we dont want to pay. Its never ever going to happen like that ever. Look how little he got when we had the threat of money and they were trying to keep us.
Can we keep the Euro when we leave then?
Its OUR Euro remember! 😉
And before the usual suspects start repeating Sturgeons utter bullshite about how they aren't bound by the westminster referendum, they might want to read the Scotland Act
[i]Scotland Act 1998, Schedule 5, Reserved Matters:
7(1)International relations, including relations with territories outside the United Kingdom, the [F3 European Union](and their institutions) and other international organisations, regulation of international trade, and international development assistance and co-operation are reserved matters.[/i]
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5
How much either side decides to hurt the other and co operate is anyones guess but no change and free trade is not going to be the outcome - well not without paying and obeying the rules but having no say over them.
Quite. Expecting politicians to behave like adults is a big ask!
FWIW, I have no problems with contributing (although perhaps to a lesser extent than currently), nor immigration. I have an issue with the "unquestionable power" thing. Parhaps having a more lassaiz faire attitude to the EU regs (as many others have) could work. Not really in the british psyche though.
Changing the calc to make us pay more was piss poor IMHO.
Can we keep the Euro when we leave then?Its OUR Euro remember!
Neatly not addressing the point you made about how money meant we had a string negotiating position was basically wrong.
No one doubts that Scotland has to abide by this under our current law
Its difficult to predict what would happen if they had a separate vote and voted to stay[ or the result showed they voted to stay], which is not unlikely. However its hard to see how they could do this legally and whether the result would be respected. Constitution v democracy woudl be an interesting time.
WOuld be ironic to force them to leave one union they wanted to be in and stay in one they now want to leave then argue its democracy in action. Hard to see how keeping them there very angry helps the uk issue much as well.
Personally, beyond it being a shit storm, I would not like to make a prediction.
@ wrecker - is it really true that others do just ignore the rules or is it just another one of those things everyone has heard so often abut the EU we think it is true.
Busy but will google afterwards as I do not know if there is any truth in this claim.
A reluctant out.
I had previously been very pro - Europe but I do not like the direction it has gone in over the last 10 years. Very ideologically driven.
is it really true that others do just ignore the rules or is it just another one of those things everyone has heard so often abut the EU we think it is true.
I can only speak from my experience, certainly the EPBD (which bought us EPCs) has been either ignored or fiddled by and large on the continent.
In.
Anyone who thinks Out is stupid beyond redemption. Why would you vote against your own interests (workers' rights, safety legislation, free market etc) unless you'd been hoodwinked by media who want out so that they can reduce their costs ?
Whilst we're at it, we'd have been much better off IN the euro. Our position would be similar to Germany's. I just sent some time working there, my god it's civilised. And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.
Anyone who thinks Out is stupid beyond redemption.
That's very rude. It's a very complex question that no-one actually knows the answer to. Clearly there are stupid arguments for both sides.
That said, In.
[b]as a british citizen [/b]by a quirk of geography you are also a european, as Britain is technically within the boundaries of western europe, our culture is european in terms of historical interaction, art, music, religion etc.etc.
Not very good pedantry - you could easily be a British citizen without ever having been to Britain or Europe, and not having the slightest connection to British or European history, art, music, religion etc.
retro83 - Member
bowglie - Member
The Japanese companies manufacture here to get around EU quotas, so they're not going to hang around if the UK leaves the EU.
Toyoda has said that Toyota will stay regardless.
Toyota knows how good BritLand is by comparison to the EUSSR. Hence staying. Nuff said. Good enough for Toyota good enough for me.
Toyota! Toyota! Toyota! Oi! Oi! Oi! 😆
As I said before I was strongly in precisely because of the workers rights,safety regulations, human rights etc but the behaviour of the EU towards Greece has made me question how much it is in the pocket of global multinationals and banks. Then there's the TTIP issue with negotiations shrouded in secrecy doesn't inspire confidence in the desire of the EU to represent it's peoples interests well. So now I am undecided.
In
WorldClassAccident
The OUT campaign seems mainly to be 'They' are making rules for 'Us' and 'We' want control back.It seems fair until you ask who 'They' are and who 'We' are.
We are British and They are not - actually I am English but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Britain.
Okay, We are English and They are not - Actually I am from Hampshire but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of England.
Okay, We are Hampshire and They are not - Actually I am from Southampton but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Hampshire.
Okay, We are Southampton...
I guess the logical end result is that we all live as individuals with no cooperation and no joined up rules, collective responsibility etc. I guess that is why the Out campaign tends to be favored by those who have least to gain by sharing with others and most to gain by exploiting their relative strength over others.
I am sure there is a reverse argument that will pop up shortly but for the moment I am in.
This^
EU means ...
Ease of people movement.
East of competition.
The question is can you hack it?
Obvious is obvious ...
😆
In.
In
Likely out. Agree with gordimhor above. CAP boils my piss too.
Of course the worry is that even if we come out the Tories will sign us up for TTIP.
Looks like the "In" votes has won to enslave everyone ... 😮
BritLand has finally gone to the dogs.
Oh well I have tried to warn you Brits that the EU bureaucratic machine will reel you in slowly ... catchy monkey! You are moving into a very dangerous ground for your children but then you would be dead by the time they suffer.
As a legal alien I can feel the tide slowly turning against BritLand but [b]the truth is you have to thank your own blood for offering you to the lion's den.[/b] Surprise!!! 😆
The PC and the bureaucratic system will soon turn you into a non-entity. You will not have your own identity unless you are of certain religion that commit mass killings.
Never mind, even if 99% of voters vote in ... I am going vote Out!
Let's see how many centuries will the PC mentality last ... 😆
If anyone things we can get trade agreements done and locked in at incredibly favourable terms overnight is dreaming. As mentioned above to sell into the EU we would have to follow all the EU rules and regulations but have no say in any of it.
Australia recently/finally signed off on a free trade deal with China, years of negotiating on heaps of stuff and lots of compromise, so if you really want to start each one of these from scratch with all the other sides thinking it's time to get more out of it then go for it.
As many have said the main issue with the UK and EU is a reluctance to get involved properly. Hanging back and trying to only pick the fun bits never works.
Not sure if this one is urban myth but it does sum a lot up
When the EU made all fire extinguishers red and put a symbol on them to identify them rather than the UK colour coded system the British delegation kicked off and pointed out that the UK had a much better system. The response from the rest of the committee was that it would have been great to have come along to the start of the process and suggest that then not complain at the end having not taken part in the process at all....
I also get the feeling that if chewkw managed to declare the independent state of chewkw with him as the only resident and government he would still hate the government.
I'm confused by it all, can anyone answer these questions?
1) How much do we pay in exactly and how much is granted back to us?
2) How has being in the EU benefitted British workers?
3) Cameron's 'deal' will only be bad for British workers rights right?
4) How broken is the European parliament exactly, it seems pretty much on it's last legs to me
5) I'm of to bed
1) http://www.statista.com/statistics/316964/net-contributions-to-eu-budget-by-united-kingdom-uk-to-eu-european-union/ 10.8 Billion for 2015/16.
As for what the UK gets here is a summary from 2012
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union
2) British Workers? Maximum working week? Stronger economy, better trade terms, export routes etc. all these things are good for British Workers.
3) No idea
4) Why do you think it's broken?
In. I think it's a good thing both economically (as someone who runs a business which trades internationally) and in keeping the EU balanced in its membership, rather than becoming even more Germany-centric.
3) Cameron's 'deal' will only be bad for British workers rights right?
Why? Its puts a brake [ lets ignore the spin for now] on immigrant.Its says nothign at all about workers rights
What is your exact concern?
4) How broken is the European parliament exactly, it seems pretty much on it's last legs to me
Very little point answering a leading question like that
They are all elected so one massive plus on our system and they use PR so I would argue that is two.
I dont think it is either broken or about to die and I have no idea how anyone could cogently argue the later.
I have given this some thought and I have decide at present I am a tentative yes to stay
The main reason is that I cannot see myself voting the same way as the more vocal anti EU lot. Apparently they are trying to persuade Gove to lead it so two campaigns one led by Farage and one by Gove. I just cannot see me siding with them- the debate on STW has been far more rational and less hate based than the wider debate.
Whilst we're at it, we'd have been much better off IN the euro. Our position would be similar to Germany's. I just sent some time working there, my god it's civilised. And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In
It's a tragic state of affairs when either Cameron or Farage will claim credit for the way I vote. 👿
The EU project needs a lot of reforms & surely the UK has more influence being a member of the EU rather than trying to influence things from outside the EU?
Lots here saying they would vote IN because the Tory government would be worse.
If so. Don't vote conservative next time.
By voting OUT, atleast you are allowing yourself to directly influence who gets to pass powers that affect you. They may not always listen, but laws from the EU are made by people you have no control over.
Let's try to establish a democracy I say ... So OUT.
The Greece affair is the clincher for me - EU leaders (Schultz, Juncker) trying to engineer a coup, ECB acting politically, beyond its remit. There is nothing democratic about the EU, and nothing good for the citizen, as the TTIP will soon demonstrate.
do you think folk ho said that voted Tory
The second point is as true here as there
Lots of lords get to amend and pass laws, re write them and serve in the actual govt
We did not vote for them either
All the arguments against anti democratic EU who we have no say over- its basically not true*- can be applied equally [ as less favourably due to the Lords, the head of state being due to birth etc] to the UK
* The EU has lots of convulted ways of voting for things and some are more democratic than other but I guarantee for every single EU incident I can easily give you a UK counterpart from "unelected bureaucrats" - Ofsted, CPS]
as the TTIP will soon demonstrate.
Given we have aTory givt and they want free trade - its part of thier instance/negotiations- do you really think leaving means we wont have something similar?
Honestly?
I dont like TTIP either but i think its hard to argue the Tories are against it and that leaving the EU means we are saved from such agreements
They may not always listen, but laws from the EU are made by people you have no control over.
Apart from all those MEPs we elect and vote on all the laws !?!!?
I dont like TTIP either but i think its hard to argue the Tories are against it and that leaving the EU means we are saved from such agreements
Point was its another nstance of the EU not being as cuddly as some would have you believe
In
If Rupert Murdoch, the daily mail and the telegraph are so desperate for the UK to leave, then its probably good for the average person for us to be in
its another nstance of the EU not being as cuddly as some would have you believe
Its not different to our what our own parliament would do so I am not sure how it can be used to prove the EU is bad. We seem to agree its as bad as our own.
the EU towards Greece has made me question how much it is in the pocket of global multinationals and banks.
This would be a very strong argument for leaving were it not for the fact that the people wanting us to leave want us to be more in the pocket of corporations and the finance industry. As has been said many times already by others. Farage and the nut-job tories are not campaigning to leave because they think the EU doesn't do enough for the average man in the street. Voting to leave on this basis is an extreme case of turkeys voting for christmas.
And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd have thought that another economy on the scale of France and Germany being part of the Euro would self-evidently make it more secure and stable. We'll never know though.
We'd have destroyed the whole thing if we'd been involved. We'd have been like a monstorous Greece.
Out, in? Don't care, but I'd be fascinated to see what out looks like.
We'd have been like a monstorous Greece.
Still peddling the ridiculous myth that the UK finances were on a par with Greece? You won the election. Twice. You don't need to bother with that fiction any more 🙂
I didn't stand, or vote...
I'm in, the EU is far from perfect but I haven't seen anything on the out case other than some generic little Englander bigotry and bollocks. No positive vision of what the UK will look like. We owe a lot to the EU for human rights and consumer law for starters, which a tory govt would never have implemented, or allowed to stand if implemented by others.
Oh yes, employment legislation too.
owe a lot to the EU for human rights
Europe owes us a lot for human rights, not the other way around.
Just coz Churchill got his attorney general to draw up the hra doesn't mean we'd be implimenting them without EU enforcement
Europe owes us a lot for human rights
Adds Europe to list of areas where we civilised the savages
Ignores the historical fact the treaty was done by the Council of Europe and that the International declaration of Human rights predates its and accepts we gave them the concept
I'll be voting for out, mainly because I feel the EU has mutated into something very different from the institution that the UK voted to join all those years ago. Plus any organisation that is so resistant to change or the renegotiation of terms as the EU appears to be is one that is not worth being a part of.
Besides, change isn't always a bad thing and I don't see why unshackling ourselves from a declining economic arena would be a bad thing. Western Europe is no longer the economic and industrial powerhouse it used to be, neither is America for that matter. We should be exploring more innovative ways to make money with partners in India, South America and Asia.
Out. No net benefit to membership. Too many critical issues with membership.
We're such a huge export market for mainland EU that we'd still trade freely. Stories of economic woes are scaremongering and we'd reduce overheads significantly.
We're such a huge export market for mainland EU that we'd still trade freely.
I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen. Of course we'd still trade, but even a small increase in the cost of trading with the rest of Europe would have a significant economic impact. It doesn't take much of a change to tip the economy into recession. When you consider that trade will inevitably decrease, and the supply of cheap labour from abroad will be cut off, then it doesn't take much of imagination to predict what will happen.
Please remember this is not a left or right issue. Tony Benn, Michael Foot and many others respected leaders of the left disagreed with membership as it undermined the sovereignty of our elected parliament (Corbyn used to espouse this view until recently). Unfortunately Enoch Powell was also a proponent of this view. Historically the tories were pro membership.
EU membership is now not about economics its about the future of democracy of the UK, that short sighted in my view. If you move the center of government further away from the people don't be surprised if people feel unrepresented (yes it can be bad here but we can protest at the gates of Downing St). The MEP's have no binding power and mostly get to vote on binding EU law only when the commission put it in front of them. If the commission thinks they'll not win a vote of MEP's then there is no voting opportunity. If the MEP's vote against the wishes of the commission, that vote is ignored.
My concern for the long term about the EU is that for well meaning reasons we are walking into a totalitarian state. I'd prefer to be in a reformed EU that respects the sovereignty of the various elected governments, like them or not at least we can protest and vote who our leaders are.
I have experience in how the EU commission makes its laws and have found it to be a very frustrating experience (and interesting). One outstanding thing I have learned at the beginning of these processes is that the representative have almost always made up their minds of the outcome before the start of the consultations (bit like the UK). Once they bring a directive into law even if proved to be incorrect in purpose, it's almost impossible to get it changed.
Sorry to ramble on.
edit: spelling issues, probably more
When you consider that trade will inevitably decrease
I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen.
mikewsmith - Member
If anyone things we can get trade agreements done and locked in at incredibly favourable terms overnight is dreaming. ...As many have said the main issue with the UK and EU is a reluctance to get involved properly. Hanging back and trying to only pick the fun bits never works.
... identify them rather than the UK colour coded system the British delegation kicked off and pointed out that the UK had a much better system. The response from the rest of the committee was that it would have been great to have come along to the start of the process and suggest that then not complain at the end having not taken part in the process at all....
I also get the feeling that if chewkw managed to declare the independent state of chewkw with him as the only resident and government he would still hate the government.
That happens in commercial business dealings all the time so how the naive never sees what's coming astonish me ... You do have many business experts don't you? Oh hang on ... you industries are slowly disappearing.
Also negotiation and dealings are there to set standards. This is a winner takes all scenario or in BritLand case they gangbang you.
BritLand lot has just be bullied into EUSSR club without knowing or you don't know how to response because you give in so quickly with a slight hint of fear of a slight pain ...
It is Not really difficult, just like club membership you get people who abuse or make stooopid decision, playing the system but nothing can be done.
You raise your question(s) and concern(s) during the EUSSR club meeting but the majority rules means they gangbang you in your arse to ensure you comply with the rules. The majority apply pressure and you are now being gang bang ... obvious is obvious.
[b]
They have been salivating for you but could not do so when you had strong leadership but as it is nowadays you BritLand has such weak leaders the time is right for gang banging you.[/b]
[b]The description of your current leaders:
1. Cameron the young weak naive,
2. JC(not Jeusus Christ) the old mule out of ideas,
3. Farage the loud with wrong tactics,
4. Lib Dem the limping dream seekers,
5. Green Party the socially lost,
6. SNP the freedom from Scotland who prefer be eaten alive by EUSSR,
7. The Welsh party that is just juicy fat lamb for slaughter. [/b]
I might be amongst the few that want out but one thing I am certain of is that I can sleep well that nobody is going to gangbang me in the arse nor have I need comply to someone's else silly rules because they want to manipulate to dominate.
Some of the smaller nations are getting gangbang by the few larger nations in the club but BritLand will be the next ... time is right to gangbang this lot (putting pressure to open up and making the country's insignificant) because they are running out of pleasure (poor economy) in the smaller nations.
If you still have not woken up to the fact that joining the EU Club means letting others dictate full terms to you then you are delusional. Yes, some argue that you still have to comply to their club rules etc ... Well at least you can also start your own club with own rules and I am sure there are many who want to join.
The way the "In" vote is polling on STW I can only said that your own blood just sold you out.
Many years of political correctness have resulted in creating drones with very little ability to think critically.
🙄
Out.
chewkw like any good politician from what I have read you have used a lot of words and effectively said sweet FA.
I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen.
Go on then, explain how trade with the EU might increase after the removal of free trade and the introduction of tariffs.
ninfan - MemberI think that the biggest clue comes form the fact that so many of the people who are saying "out" would be a disaster are the same people who, a few years ago, were telling us that it would be a disaster if we didn't join the Euro...
That guy that interprets opinion polls who didn't come out of GE 2015 looking quite as much of a plonker as the others was on R4 yesterday morning pointing out amongst other things that graduates seem more in favour of staying in. Similar observations and exciting graph content 3/4 of the way down here:
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12086589/EU-referendum-Who-in-Britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-remain.html ]Telegraph linky[/url] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12086589/EU-referendum-Who-in-Britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-remain.html
Selfishly, I am worried about ttip and what would happen long term to my job and employers (health), but also about future trade agreements and workers/trade union legislation from a far right government who already act like they won by a landslide. Even under the EU we have somehow managed to have some of the 'worst' trade union legislation in europe ('worst' if you are a member of or work for a trade union I mean btw).
Also selfishly I have dual nationality so if UK is out, there is nothing stopping me asserting my right to live, work, claim benefits and enjoy the securities of Europe whatever happens and however silly it gets in future.
I fear that however maturely we debate it on here, for most of the public it will boil down to a couple easily soundbitten and fairly unrepresentative points. Also I predict that the motivation to get out of the house and physically put a vote in will be far higher amongst the 'out' side than the 'in' or 'oh I suppose we should stay in' side, or/and that the supposed 'shy tory' phenomenom will reporoduce itself with 'shy euroskeptics' and opinion polls will predct a lower 'out' vote than we will actually get on the day.
From debate on here as much as anything else I am leaning towards 'in', pending Cameron's 'deal' of course -and looking forward to the possibility of agreeing with CMD and a few of the big hitterz on here for once.
mikewsmith - Member
chewkw like any good politician from what I have read you have used a lot of words and effectively said sweet FA.
I don't know that much about FA but for EUSSR I can see them so clearly ... 😯 Not sure why perhaps I have been hanging out with ZM bureaucrats too much ...
yes I'm sure you do
I might be amongst the few that want out but one thing I am certain of is that I can sleep well that nobody is going to gangbang me in the arse nor have I need comply to someone's else silly rules because they want to manipulate to dominate.
Go on then, explain how trade with the EU might increase after the removal of free trade and the introduction of tariffs.
I was teasing really but obviously I can't explain how it would go any more than you or anyone else can. We're all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise.