I suppose you could extend that to free movement of the elderly, due to work prospects
There is absolutely zero chance of tariff free access to the single market without free movement of people. Also zero chance of tariff free access to the single market without making contributions.
There are absolute red lines for the EU and this is a basic underlying principle of the EU
The odd thing is that the Germans are in the process of approving a law meaning no unemployment benefits for 5 years for EU citizens. I thought when Cameron asked for the same he was tood it was a core EU principal of equal treatment. Freedom of movement the EU's stance is its an integral part of free trade, however if the project stands at the point of collpase I'd wager they'll be a change of heart. There is no hard business or economic reason for it to be linked.
Now I don't disagree with you that the EU will probably stick to that position (not least as 27 will never agree) which is why just getting on with quick clean hard Brexit is best way forward. Spend the time, effort and recourses outside the EU as its just not worth the bother
Finally I watched sone of Commons Committe on Brexit/EU rights - Romanian and Polish Ambassadors. They seemed to want a lot of answers about their citizens rights in the UK but didn't have much in the eay of guarantees for Brits in their countries (despite their being 1 million Poles in UK amd just 5,000 registered Brits in Poland)
Could be a fun QT tonight
Ken Clarke apparently arguing point about advisory nature of referendum
Varoufakis who is always interesting if not correct but a good foil to the myopic Germans and their apologists
Er, yeah, that would be expected. Because they get to say/negotiate how many Brits can stay. They will have control over that bit.
What they might not be able to control is poles rights in the UK, hence their well thought out question.
So much wrong with your last post Jamba, that I don"t know where to start. Full of errors. Delibrate, or not?
And, I say "errors" out of charity.
Tories divisive and giving grater rights to rich folk than poor folkit does sound a little divisive
That is a turn up for the book and a real eye opener
Sounds like the current government thinking is freedom of movement for professional middle class types while the working class can know their place and stay in it.
Controlled immigration is about taking the skills we need. In Australia that has meant more tradesmen and less PhDs etc
What various people have said inc Sadiq Kahn is financial services/the City should have no restrictions. Now I do not agree, they should have visas like everyone else.
The odd thing is that the Germans are in the process of approving a law meaning no unemployment benefits for 5 years for EU citizens.
So if I go and work in Germany and pay the equivalent of national insurance, I'm subsidizing all the locals? Not fair!
Edit: switching off
jambalaya - Member
In Australia that has meant more tradesmen and less PhDs etc
Fewer PhDs.
well if we don't leave the EU there will be civil unrest I shall be there!
Brexit is hopefully going to happen and when it does it will be fine. just relax and accept it.
The EU's two trophy policies are the Euro and the Shenghen agreement and both have failed dismally. That alone was enough to convince me even before the Treasury started trying to warp the arguments. There is nothing any of those countries make or sell that we cant buy when we're outside the EU. How do you think Australia, Chile, USA, India all manage? It really is quite odd just how narrow minded people are over this. How do you think we managed before 1973? Snap out of it FFS!
The EU's two trophy policies are the Euro and the Shenghen agreement and both have failed dismally.
And......oh forget, you can only say the same things so many times
hh45 - according to the governments own figues we will have to increase exports to those countries by 37% just to stand still
Caution kids - sweary [but great as ever]
How do you think we managed before 1973? Snap out of it FFS!
I don't know if you've realised this.....but it's not 1973 anymore..
Jamba - you got a link to that bit of nonsense about germany making new laws on benefits?
BTW - we could have had a qualification for benefits based upon contributions IIRC but of course that would have meant no school lever could have got any as they would not have any contributions.
jambalaya - Member
Controlled immigration is about taking the skills we need. In Australia that has meant more tradesmen and less PhDs etcWhat various people have said inc Sadiq Kahn is financial services/the City should have no restrictions. Now I do not agree, they should have visas like everyone else.
I hear you Jamba, but given the government already vetoed the points based system (Aussie style system), what do you think Davis really means here...
"Clearly it is not going to be in the national interest to restrict the movement of talent, the free movement of brainpower. You can be very, very confident that we will not be limiting highly intelligent, highly capable people's access," Davis told parliament.
The EU's two trophy policies are the Euro and the Shenghen agreement and both have failed dismally.
I know I've been away for a bit but when did the UK join the euro or have full open borders?
well if we don't leave the EU there will be civil unrest I shall be there!
Well by the time all the mail and express readers get all excited it should thin the heard a little...
There is nothing any of those countries make or sell that we cant buy when we're outside the EU. How do you think Australia, Chile, USA, India all manage?
Australia (slightly a specialist subject) huge mineral resources.
Apart from that by trying to make deals with places like the eu that are about 70% as good as the current UK position. Leaving the eu will not open anything new up just me a bunch of stuff harder.
As an aside, and I don't condone this (honest - but I am finding it quite funny), the insulting names on both sides are getting more and more creative / tenuous .
Remoaners
Bremoaners
Bretards
Brexshitters
Regrexiteers
Have I missed any good ones?
Ahhhh... Australia... Dont you just love it when Australia is chosen as an exemplar of a reasonable and common sense immigration policy. That beacon of enlightened and progressive social policies. The country where it's own indigenous peoples are arguably treated as second class citizens.
The country where it's own indigenous peoples are [b]IN[/b]arguably treated as second class citizens.
FIFY
igm - Member
As an aside, and I don't condone this (honest - but I am finding it quite funny), the insulting names on both sides are getting more and more creative / tenuous .Remoaners
Bremoaners
Bretards
Brexshitters
RegrexiteersHave I missed any good ones?
Yes. EU lackeys.
I think I have only come across the word "lackeys" by Graham (think it was you but apology if it was not you) recently once so I am not sure if this is a bad word or bad insulting word but in HK they used it to insult political opponents e.g. Leftards, US lackeys (lefties), Hot dog(nationalist) and HK pigs (those couldn't give a damn about both sides as they prefer to eat, defecate and sleep).
jambalaya - I could not care less
Just wanted to quote that, feels telling to me.
Trolls have to troll @pondo that was my point
@igm US and Singapore don't have a points system. You make an applcation and they decide
@tmh we keep making the point about the EU's central policies being a failure as it shows how incompetant and dysfunctional th EU is. The EU's responce, yet more Europe
@TJ come on its been all over the news websites ... in the interests of fairnplay I will dig out the links. EDIT here is one from Guardian
Trolls have to troll @pondo that was my point
Your indifference to both facts and accuracy was mine.
@tmh we keep making the point about the EU's central policies being a failure as it shows how incompetant and dysfunctional th EU is. The EU's responce, yet more Europe
So what? We are not part of that and should have no bearing on how we want to structure our future economic relationship with some of our most important trading partners.
It remains a red herring no matter how often you misuse it
@tmh we keep making the point about the EU's central policies being a failure as it shows how incompetant and dysfunctional th EU is. The EU's responce, yet more Europe
and yet those shouting loudest about it have yet to make a credible path forwards that will make the UK better. Or even easier why the UK could not have improved within the EU.
@pondo feel free to list some factual errors I have made here. People mix up opinion and interpretation presented with conviction.
@tmh it's not a Red Herring it's a Red Flag. Absolutely indicative of everything thats wrong about the EU.
It's added. Presumably the opposite would be a leavoony - but I just made that one up.
More specific I suppose would be a 'Kipper
Keep them coming.
The odd thing is that the Germans are in the process of approving a law meaning no unemployment benefits for 5 years for EU citizens. I thought when Cameron asked for the same he was tood it was a core EU principal of equal treatment
That's because there has been a court case in-between then that tested what an individual was allowed to claim and the ECJ ruled against paving the way for Germany to do what they've done.
In broad strokes.
@pondo feel free to list some factual errors I have made here.
This thread is 360 pages long and you've been called out on the majority of them - I'd invite you to answer any of them.
@tmh it's not a Red Herring it's a Red Flag. Absolutely indicative of everything thats wrong about the EU.
It's very odd to make things that do not apply to the UK a Red Flag. You might as well add the requirement to speak Esperanto.
It is indicative of everything that is wrong with the BSers case. Total BS.
hh45 - Member
How do you think we managed before 1973?
well we did a bit shit, really
[img] 
[/img]
but you keep on living in your fantasy land
@pondo feel free to list some factual errors I have made here
In addition to supporting the five lies at the core of the Brexshit campaign
We are not part of the €
We are not part of Schengen
We are not on the hook for financial support
We did not lose money on supporting Greece last time
We do not have uncontrolled immigration
Immigration has not had a significant impact on either employment levels or wages
That without stopping to think about it too hard.
[img] [/img]
This is all very well but the question was how did we do [i]before[/i] 1973?
This thread continues to generate some complete & utter nonsense...
I'm interested to read some of the political and economic arguments for Brexit, but this...
hh45 - Member
How do you think we managed before 1973?
Rose-tinted reading glasses??? WTF has 1973 (pre- computers, pre-Internet, pre-globalisation, pre-fax? and for many pre-telephone) got to do with the 21st Century???
Let me point out how stupid that is - Did your relatives in 1973 suggest 1930 was better??? Let's chuck out the Ford Anglia / Morris Minor and go back to horse and cart or bicycle 😡
AND DONT GET ME STARTED ON:
Cod Wars
Do you have any idea what that embarrassing spat was about???
I saw one of our Leander class frigates in dry dock with her bows stove in!
Not the most glorious part of our collective history...
Why was there a cod war? Because the UK had manage to overfish the North Sea for most commercial species without any help from our EEC / EU neighbours and wanted to preserve our right to carry on fishing somebody else's... Iceland were trying to protect their natural resource from a greedy European neighbour - gotta love the ironing!
The whole fishing / quotas thing really boils my p!ss. Quotas were a mechanism to protect fish stocks. Overfishing and low fish stocks were a product of an unregulated industry
Forgot "many millions of Poles"
And many others....
Oh the irony...the UK chose to leave the club because it was fed up with the club telling the UK how to behave...and now the UK is annoying the club because in its final days in the club the UK is trying to tell the club how to behave... 🙄
It re-enforced my thoughts yesterday stood in the local garage of our ex-mining village when I saw a couple of low loaders carrying cars off and a local chap in the queue said "that's it, go get them." That is the local Polish folks cars being towed off into the distance for not paying tax, insurance or whatever.
As a minority ProEU voice in a village. I just throught that's enough of a reason for them. Don't need to go any deeper.
They've forgot about Thatcher these days (will always be justified for me). As long as we do battle with someone then it's okay.
It doesn't matter that the migrants are propping up the local economy up the road at Sports Direct.
There will never be any logic to the Brexiteers, there never was. It doesn't matter to them. This is a battle of getting rid of people from our Island.
Don't forget nasty foreigners EVB.... 😉
That's because there has been a court case in-between then that tested what an individual was allowed to claim and the ECJ ruled against paving the way for Germany to do what they've done.
So what you're saying is, the EU can change and evolve?
Don't tell the brexiteers....
Anyone else watch Question Time last night?
By the end it looked to me like Ken Clarke had given up arguing with the Leavers in the audience, as in given up trying to bother talking to a load of folk that just keep shouting "we want to leave".
And it was quite obvious that those folk have no idea where they want to leave to...
Also quite noticeable that all those who spoke for leave were white and lower working class.
