IT was quite entertaining if boorish at times. Clarke is winding down now, I met him recently and was struck by just how physically frail he is. Mentally still great and an v amusing after dinner speaker. When the bloke got shouty, he just smiled and let it pass, probably thinking about the post-QT scotch with Conrad.
Varoufakis was good and wacky at the same time, but livens things up. The poor Labour lass was a bit our of her depth but DD looked like he was reassuring her at the end - "you were fine, honestly." I hope that she doesn't have an important shadow brief though.
The serious labour types are going for select committees not shadow briefs I think
This is all very well but the question was how did we do before 1973?
Like I said, shit
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but it doesnt make any difference Brexiters will just continue to view things through their own sunglasses of nostalgia/xenophobia/ignorance- see the Polish woman being booed on QT last night.
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58094d0ee4b0f479c0d6135a
IT was quite entertaining if boorish at times. Clarke is winding down now, I met him recently and was struck by just how physically frail he is. Mentally still great and an v amusing after dinner speaker. When the bloke got shouty, he just smiled and let it pass, probably thinking about the post-QT scotch with Conrad.
Yes, it was very evident at the Any Questions session I attended last year and I thought your're decent guy why not just go and sit in your Garden instead of turning up to these sprawling broadcasts.
So what you're saying is, the EU can change and evolve?Don't tell the brexiteers....
Absolutely.
More to the point for me - it's always a bit crackers to take a newspaper article which is clearly just trying to re-enforce its ideology (confirmation bias etc) without retracing the steps of the news article, and what exactly the background to it is.
I do wonder now how the landscape may have changed public perception if we said oh - by the way we can now effectively limit benefits for immigrants for up to 4/5 years.
It's little adjustments like this that may appease the pitchfork brigade.
But then again, maybe not.
Sharp writing from Mark Steel
I know Hartlepool quite well and it's had none of the investment that Newcastle or even Sunderland or Middlesbrough and it was sad to watch some people just simply screaming for out. I wonder what the gang of three actually think (assuming they watch QT) of this desperation and the potential medium term backlash when these folks realise their personal well being is actually rapidly declining. It was very sad to watch almost like a wounded animal.
However I now realise why Conrad Black got sent to prison.
I do wonder now how the landscape may have changed public perception if we said oh - by the way we can now effectively limit benefits for immigrants for up to 4/5 years.
Quite a bit.
The general public seem think "EU has caused this and this problem, therefore we must leave".
But they don't know about the good things the EU has enabled and the advantages businesses can get. That's the businesses so many of us ordinary people work for, not fat cat banking stuff.
But they don't know about the good things the EU has enabled and the advantages businesses can get. That's the businesses so many of us ordinary people work for, not fat cat banking stuff.
I wonder if that's because the remain campaign failed to put across the advantages of remaining. Their campaign was as pathetic as the leavers pack of lies and misinformation. Reminded me of the appalling referendum on voting reform.
I wonder if that's because the remain campaign failed to put across the advantages of remaining
Yes. The Delphi poster is a damn good illustration of the positives imo. And we didn't see it during the campaign.
Incompetent politicans again.
Everyone knows the EU is dysfunctional. Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU. The fact is the only reform has been a march away from what the Remainers wanted (never mind Leavers). The voters saw this for what it is.
Pretty sure most of them saw is for what they were [i]told [/i]it was, dude.
Everyone knows the EU is dysfunctional. Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU. The fact is the only reform has been a march away from what the Remainers wanted (never mind Leavers). The voters saw this for what it is.
Seriously, just stop.
Interesting that Conrad Black fella actually believes the EU will come back with a revised offer and there will be a 2nd referendum.
Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU.
Of course. Most things can be improved. I'd argue for a reformed UK parliament, but that doesn't mean I'd vote to leave it.
The voters saw this for what it is.
Clever astute lot then, leave voters?
Everyone knows the EU is dysfunctional.
Omniscient as well now are we?
Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU. The fact is the only reform has been a march away from what the Remainers wanted (never mind Leavers).
No they didn't. Sensible remainers argued for a reformed EU and being a lead hand in reforming it. The EU needs reforming just like any other form of government currently in operation around the world. As the EU will continue to exert a lot of sway over our lives, be we in or out, a sensible advocate may argue that being able to steer the direction of the EU is a preferable situation to being a passive recipient of whatever the rest of the EU decides.
The voters saw this for what it is.
37% of eligible voters decided to leave. Trying to second guess why is a futile exercise unless you truly are omniscient.
So please, stop talking in sound bites. The campaigning is over, there is no need to dress up bollocks as facts and make sweeping generalisations. If you can't help yourself then please stay out of attempts by others to have a rational debate to try and understand what is going on and what it means for our futures.
Black is probably correct. There will be a compromise reached in 2017. At the moment, we have posturing for TV/home audiences while the real negotiations take place behind closed doors.
Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU.
Nothing wrong with reforming things. It's a bit different to tearing it all apart though.
Interesting that Conrad Black fella actually believes the EU will come back with a revised offer and there will be a 2nd referendum.
This would of course be the most pragmatic, damage limiting course of action. And that's precisely why Brussels won't even consider it.
The whole Brexit thing is a political powerplay. It's pretty obvious to just about everyone in Europe that there are some deep seated issues that need to be addressed:
- Falling share of world GDP
- High unemployment / lack of growth in many member states
- Ongoing loss of high value industries to China
- Difficulties planning for / accommodating immigration at scale when the associated provisioning needs in Health, Education, Housing etc. cannot be predicted early enough to enable member states to plan for it.
- Complete lack of thinking on what to do with a resurgent and expansionist Russian state
Despite all this Brussels is like an Ostrich strutting round a private sandpit wondering why everyone is so busy asking for change when itself it has no difficulty in finding somewhere to bury its head.
The "negotiations" between UK / EU at the start of the year were conducted with no genuine intention to find middle ground or solutions - instead it was a game of marginal compromise underpinned by a requirement to give up the right to ever negotiate on those points in the future. I can't think of any negotiation where those "rules" would result in an agreed outcome - the whole set up was stupid from the outset and the army of 8,000+ EU Civil Servants all paid more than our Prime Minister have a lot to answer for.
As the Referendum was already a known fact, it's surprising that the EU chose to effectively give David Cameron a poke in the eye and then tell him to ask go home and ask everyone here what they thought about that in a referendum.
The Political class that dominates Brussels seems to have very little understanding of the concerns of the people of Europe, and the straws in the wind this week fro Hollande, Tusk and others don't suggest a change of heart is likely any time soon.
With different leadership and a new found desire to work constructively to solve the problems member states have today the outcome could still be different. It doesn't make sense to trash the economies of many member states via a "hard" Brexit in order to pursue solely political goals. The people of the 28 member states have the right to expect that Europe's leaders work together rather than playing silly political games.
Shackleton. I think i love you.
j5m - agree with that. And that is why Cameron/May should've gone back to Brussles with the result and started talking before saying Brexit means Brexit.
As a side observation - there really is a marked difference in the quality of contributions to this thread from each side.
+1 for the Shackleton love in - more debate insight and less bollocks
ulysse and oldmanmtb 😳
With different leadership and a new found desire to work constructively to solve the problems member states have today the outcome could still be different. It doesn't make sense to trash the economies of many member states via a "hard" Brexit in order to pursue solely political goals. The people of the [s]28 member states[/s] United kingdom have the right to expect that[s] Europe's leaders[/s] our own MPs work together rather than playing silly political games.
the entire referendum is the result of tabloid nonsense whipping up xenophobia and jingoism, something far too many of our own politicians have happily embraced to deflect from their own failings, making it easy for demagogues like farage to come along and spout a load of nonsense
eg
Not sure how we can tackle this our population isnt expanding anywhere near as fast as the BRICs nations for example, But have rested on our post empire laurels for far too long,we invest considerably less in R&D than comparable economies such as Germany, USA & FranceFalling share of world GDP
our low unemployment is built on a very shaky foundation of 0 hrs contracts and CEOs far more interested in share price than the health of their company, hence ur huge productivity gap- High unemployment / lack of growth in many member states
maybe foxcon will open a factory here post brexit? 😉 (see R&D investment)- Ongoing loss of high value industries to China
These issues affect us in the same way as they do the rest of Europe, our ageing population means we need ever increasing numbers of young immigrant workers, our economy is boosted by immigrants but that money is not reinvested in the NHS, education or housing stock- Difficulties planning for / accommodating immigration at scale when the associated provisioning needs in Health, Education, Housing etc. cannot be predicted early enough to enable member states to plan for it.
Johnson's plan- get the plebs to protest outside the embassy is about as empty as you can get- Complete lack of thinking on what to do with a resurgent and expansionist Russian state
our low unemployment is built on a very shaky foundation of 0 hrs contracts and CEOs far more interested in share price than the health of their company, hence ur huge productivity gap
Careful kimbers, you are straying into BSer territory there. ZHC are <3% of total jobs and the productivity is driven by other factors. Otherwise carry on
Crap tax receipt figures today - falsifying the arguments that all data have been good post Brexshit. And as the FT noted, unlike surveys, tax receipts are hard facts
fair enough, I was also thinking more of the hermes/ubberfication of market eg http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37678065
and as for CEOs, there are some excellent examples of these in the news lately
some of them [s]are [/s]were even knighted
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molgrips - MemberYes. The Delphi poster is a damn good illustration of the positives imo. And we didn't see it during the campaign.
Of course, every time they raised access to the single market, the leave campaign said "but we'll have access to the single market so don't worry about it". The graphic is more effective now because the conversation has changed.
So.. all these Poles and other Eastern Europeans.. if they stay here and have kids, their kids will end up with their local accents.. and they are of course white. They will have British citizenship too - so how will we be able to tell they're immigrants?
There's probably a dental test.how will we be able to tell they're immigrants?
Steady Molgrips can't say that... who are UKIP going to scapegoat in the future!
Polish builders kids disguising their accents - Daily Mail headline
Everyone knows the EU is dysfunctional. Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU. The fact is the only reform has been a march away from what the Remainers wanted (never mind Leavers). The voters saw this for what it is.
Surely that's just the attitude of someone who doesn't want it to work no matter what the evidence.
I just wonder have you ever stood back and thought - hmm that's not a bad idea that the EU implemented. Or is it just you despise everything about it? The very concept of it rather than what it could achieve.
I too agree with the above there was not enough positive debate about it. But when has the media ever dwelled on the positive? The Brits appear to be great at dismantling (although that's not working out too well here) but terrible at suggesting a better alternative or decent consensus. Because that takes work.
You just have to listen to the anti British sentiment being spouted by EU leaders to understand that the EU totally undemocratic.
I have already decided I won't be buying any bloody french goods going forward. Yawn, yawn. Getting rather tired of hearing the threatening rhetoric coming from those across the channel.
Just reinforces my view that the club stinks and I'm glad I put my tick where I did. Now if our politicians could just hurry up and drag us out I'd be much happier.
You just have to listen to the anti British sentiment being spouted by EU leaders to understand that the EU totally undemocratic.
its almost as if someone gave them the idea we are all ****s
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More cheese and wine for us. You can have your baked beans.
So.. all these Poles and other Eastern Europeans.. if they stay here and have kids, their kids will end up with their local accents.. and they are of course white. They will have British citizenship too - so how will we be able to tell they're immigrants?
They'll be bilingual, so easily distinguished from the natives 🙂
Flanagaj - you just stuck two fingers up at them. What do you expect?
I think you are a little arrogant, perhaps not thinking too clearly.
Its sad how far apart we all are on this topic, especially when I expect we all want more or less the same things from our lives.
As the debate progressed I just was not convinced that there was anything good in the EU that we cant have without being in the EU? I accept that doesn't mean stuff s better outside the EU but if stuff is not appreciably better or worse that who cares whether we're in or out? At the risk of re-running the Life of Brian, what good came out of the EU? Science funding - we can replace that surely? CAP - I doubt that will be missed?
I can only conclude that for a lot of people the EU is like a comfort blanket. Its familiarity is comforting even though it serves no useful purpose. I genuinely think we will do better outside the EU.
One of the things along with ECHR and NATO that has helped stabilise inter country relationships in Europe.
Our biggest trading partner and part of our economic defence against the US and Asia
A bunch of people that every time I meet them I like.
There's three good things.
Britain was great once. We decided to trash it on 23rd June. The Brexiters should be locked up for treason - or at least called out for a lack of patriotism.
hh45, the world is full of regulations and standards. You can either try and help write them or do as your told. Put simply that is why IMO Brexit is a stupid idea.
There is no possibility of a country being in sole control of its future anymore.
was anything good in the EU that we cant have without being in the EU?
well how about the worlds largest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-trade_zone ?
and as for science funding, even ignoring the fact the our government invests considerably less than similar countries in scientific research
and the bigger blow is the loss of collaborative networks that we were part of in the EU,
Being in the EU means we are part of a much larger whole, leaving reduces our access to so much knowledge, experience and facilities
by comparison China has created hundreds of new universities in the last few decades, there are currently 20 million students studying in China their research output has exploded in the last 10 years. Brexit hugely reduces our scientific footprint in the world.
Anyway, the way public opinion seems to be moving (already 5 times the majority for staying in the single market than the 3.8% majority to leave the EU) the only people who will want us to leave by March will be the Europeans.
PS - and Jamba and Chewkw
oh and on a more utlitarian level no more booze cruises. No more cheap fags etc. Back to duty free allowances 200 cigarettes, 1 litre spirits etc.
igm - we can still have European friends and family. Just because you like someone doesn't mean you have to have the same passports.
NATO will continue and the French were never in it proving to an extent its not EU dependent. To me it shows how silly EU is because it wants to usurp NATO with a Euro army.
The trade thing is surely wrong? the tariff penalty for not being in EU is actually quite small although I accept a loss of passporting may hurt the City.
ECHR - maybe but I doubt it.
Mrmo - you may well be right to a large extent but euro regs are too much. its regs for the sake of it.
igm, but will the Tories leadership back down? i have real concerns that they really don't give a shit. No functional opposition so time to screw everyone they can!
