They might or they might not but one thing I know is that UK is traditionally very good at negotiation. Remember we are the original bureaucrats.
😆 Funniest thing I've read all week. Cheers.
Let me repeat, there will be no negotiation. The EU will layout their position, which is mainly going to be about safeguarding the reciprocal rights of EU and UK citizens in their respective countries, and then they'll say take it or leave it. I'm sure Merkel, Hollande et al are all practising their best gallic shrugs for use in response to the 3 stooges laying out the UK's 'demands'.
ahwiles - Member
my prediction:
trade talks / Brexit negotiations between The UK/EU will collapse, again and again.
Might just be a normal day at office. Not necessary a bad thing as nobody can predict the outcome of negotiation until everyone agrees.
Then individual states may just have to bypass their own bureaucratic EU rules to help their own people for better deals by breaking away from unsympathetic EU bureaucratic non-entity dictating on individual nation states.The EU cannot give us what our brilliant* negotiators will demand, our brilliant* negotiators will not accept what they can offer.
Nothing new there as the EU bureaucrats have been banging on about this for a long time and we know that too. Normal really.dazh - Member
Let me repeat, there will be no negotiation. The EU will layout their position, which is mainly going to be about safeguarding the reciprocal rights of EU and UK citizens in their respective countries, and then they'll say take it or leave it.
These outgoing head of states will be unemployed soon.I'm sure Merkel, Hollande et al are all practising their best gallic shrugs for use in response to the 3 stooges laying out the UK's 'demands'.
Well, the real pain starts here - I know all the Brexiters will rewrite history and claim that the disaster that will be the UK 2017-2020 (at least) was all caused by vindictive foreigners. Where as, of course, it was caused by their collective idiocy.
On the flipside, Hollande deserves a hoof in the slats for indulging in a bit of Brit-bashing to boost his own domestic popularity. Also suggesting that the UK should somehow pay an exaggerated 'price' [i]pour decourager les autres[/i] smacks of spite and insecurity. As I said at the time of the disastrous Brexit vote, the best thing we can now do is destabilise the EU and prompt other exits. At least then we'll drag them down to our level.
The morons who voted Brexit are still ultimately to blame, though!
Remember we are the original bureaucrats.
Two problems there.
1) That's wrong, it was the Chinese.
2) There's no such thing as racial memory anyway so wtf does it matter?
Only one thing for certain is our 20 trade negotiators are going to be very busy for the next 2 years, if they have to negotiate the WTO and EU trade deals.
It must be a very shitty in the civil service at the moment
Remember we are the original bureaucrats.
#wehaveallhadenoughofexperts #letsnotletfactsgetintheway
As I said at the time of the disastrous Brexit vote, the best thing we can now do is destabilise the EU and prompt other exits.
As I've said all along, the threat of further destabilisation and exits will be the single biggest reason why the EU will do everything it can to make sure brexit is as disastrous as possible for the UK. They *need* to make an example of the UK if the EU project is to continue. This will trump all other considerations, even if it means EU exporters losing money and EU economies being negatively affected. There's a much bigger, more longterm picture than short term economic growth.
As I've said all along, the threat of further destabilisation and exits will be the single biggest reason why the EU will do everything it can to make sure brexit is as disastrous as possible for the UK. They *need* to make an example of the UK if the EU project is to continue. This will trump all other considerations, even if it means EU exporters losing money and EU economies being negatively affected. There's a much bigger, more longterm picture than short term economic growth.
Basically this is my main gripe with being IN the EU - that the political project part of the thing became a self-justifying cabal.
However, I don't think that trying to unravel 60 years of mostly mutually beneficial agreements virtually overnight was ever going to be a good thing because I am not a child.
Doing it on the mistaken basis that it would mean less brown people in the UK makes it even more unforgiveable.
Haters have to hate Junky.
Let's measure the success of Brexit when it actually happens, so 2020 and 2025 will be good tests at the General Elections. So far all the doom and gloom of IMF/OECD/Cameron amd Osbourne has been shiw to be garbage. Economy still growing and outperforming Europe and the G7, services at record level, manufacturing strong.
The haters and pessimists here are going to be oh so silent when eurozone crises resurfaces for real.
TMH I can tell you the car manufacturers in France and Germany won't be enjoying life, even without tariffs their products are 10%+ less attractive to UK customers than they where 6 months ago.
dannyh - Member
The morons who voted Brexit are still ultimately to blame, though!
There are about 50% of those people that could be your family members, friends, relatives and love ones.
molgrips - Member
Remember we are the original bureaucrats.
1) That's wrong, it was the Chinese.
Yes, indeed, you are right if you intend to go that far.
In that case I shall accept the compliment and credit for my ancestors.
However, the West (generally speaking) seem to be very good/proficient in applying such concept blindly.
I am referring to a system(s) that is better applied by some nations etc.2) There's no such thing as racial memory anyway so wtf does it matter?
However, I don't think that trying to unravel 60 years of mostly mutually beneficial agreements virtually overnight was ever going to be a good thing because I am not a child.
But this could have been avoided had the negotiations between the UK and the Commission been handled in good faith earlier in the year. Many of Europe's elected leaders have criticised the conduct of Juncker and the bureacrats involved in their negotiations.
The direction of travel in the UK was crystal clear at that time so is just incredible that the Commission was only willing to offer meaningless compromises on the basis of a "take it and forever forfeit your right to discuss this again". How many of us would accept a bad deal offered on those terms?
If the member states have any sense they need to work towards a reversal of the 5 President model, Juncker to stand down and then a good detailed review of what's not working in europe and why. This would inform sensible shifts in policy and may will result in enough significant change to warrant a second referendum in the UK i.e. the outcome doesn't need to be a disaster but so far there's been very little acceptance of the need for change in Brussels even though many member states and their people are demanding this.
IIRC Brexit means Brexit was trotted out quite early on. It would have been better for a UK PM to take the result to Brussels and say 'this is what our public thinks of the EU (and they probably aren't alone) what are YOU going to do about it?'
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/uk-lacks-expertise-for-trade-talks-with-europe-says-top-civil-servant
Seems STW is full of em!
No, I would Not push for the Norwegian option
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/page/174#post-7790295 ]Ahem[/url].
(called you on it at the time, but you were in the full grip of some kind of meme-induced psychotic episode)
But this could have been avoided had the negotiations between the UK and the Commission been handled in good faith earlier in the year. Many of Europe's elected leaders have criticised the conduct of Juncker and the bureacrats involved in their negotiations.
YOu are so one sides its worrying
FFS senior tories have criticised senior tories who have been involved int he negotiations
To argue its just them is nuts and at odds with the facts
Its a club it has rulesThe direction of travel in the UK was crystal clear at that time so is just incredible that the Commission was only willing to offer meaningless compromises on the basis of a "take it and forever forfeit your right to discuss this again". How many of us would accept a bad deal offered on those terms?
we have to obey them. They tried to accommodate our wish to not obey th rules as far as was practical. Its bonkers to argue that their refusal to ignore the club riles to let us do what we wanted is a sign of them offering a bad deal, Its a sign that we want to have our cake and to eat it.
As for arguing they should change in the chance they change enough to let us stay. How much coke have you had to be this arrogant?
We asked them to bend to our will, they refused, We will ask them in negotiations to bend to our will they will refuse again
To blame them for this is a little odd
Basically we dont want to follow their rules. that is not their fault and they wont change the rules just to accommodate one member who is/was , at best , an unwilling noisy partner prior to us saying that's it we are off.
Your posts are more one sided than Govt press releases
jambalaya - Member
Haters have to hate Junky.
So true. Which presumably is why the 'KIPers are now punching each other - allegedly.
In other news, I have a young son who gets upset when other children want to play one game and he wants to play another. It's not fair. They're being mean. But he's only 5 and he's just about grown out of it.
Strange to see it's now government foreign policy.
They tried to accommodate our wish to not obey th rules as far as was practical. Its bonkers to argue that their refusal to ignore the club rules to let us do what we wanted is a sign of them offering a bad deal, Its a sign that we want to have our cake and to eat it.
Which is literally our stated negotiating policy, according to our Foreign Secretary:
Mr Johnson told [url= https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1889723/boris-johnson-joins-forces-with-liam-foxand-declares-support-for-hard-brexit-which-will-liberate-britain-to-champion-free-trade/ ]The Sun[/url]: [i]"Our policy is having our cake and eating it."[/i]"We are Pro-secco but by no means anti-pasto".
What cars are you going to buy Jambalaya when you don't want to pay extra for European cars, boycott Japanese because they are going to downsize UK factories?
Chrisler is Italian now, GM has Opel.
Looks like everyone will be driving Ford.
The remain campaign missed a scaremongering trick:
"No more Euromillions if we leave!"
Would have swung it IMO.
Looks like everyone will be driving Ford.
Everyone?
Increasing car prices should, hopefully, keep the less affluent out of car ownership. Far too many proles getting s****y cars on lease deals. It's getting harder to tell the haves from the have nots these days.
They tried to accommodate our wish to not obey the rules as far as was practical.
Junkyard, you're ignoring the rather awkward fact that they didn't.
We know this not from David Cameron but from other European Leaders who criticised the conduct of Juncker and his team before, during and after the negotiations with the UK.
Juncker's personal agenda is to retain / extend power held by the commission. He has not accepted any need to consider an evolution of current rules in order to address the quite apparent unforeseen effect even though this has been called for by member states.
In short the ego of one unelected man has been allowed to dominate the will of Elected Representatives of the EU member states and has led us to where we now find ourselves.
Should Juncker be replaced by a pragmatist, or member states regain control of the Commission it's quite likely that the many calls for change across Europe will be heard and acted on.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-will-soon-have-to-deal-with-european-commission-president-jean-claude-juncker-sources-a7117536.html ]Merckel will have to deal with Juncker[/url]
[url= http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-commission-president-juncker-under-fire-a-1098232.html ]Juncker under fire from Leaders[/url]
[url= https://www.ft.com/content/ed74cafc-3c84-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a ]Leaders call for Juncker to step down[/url]
Well just been to a lecture by a former doctor now lawyer that works in scienftific and medical law, in the UK & the EU
some really inspiring stuff about the input of UK scientists to shape Europes laws around medicine and science, admittedly some of it was poorly written originally, but we really have [b]had[/b] a huge nfluence.
obviously he had quite an anti-brexit stance, he was now working to ensure that scienctific and medical research would suffer as little as possible, he had a lot of praise for Jo Johnson (though not his brother) and he had sat on a government biotechnology committee with Andrea Loathesome, which sounded like an exercise in absolute futility.
He was of the opinion that the Repeal Law bill would leave huge grey areas.
The talk within legal circles was that many, many lawyers had 40 years of work ahead of them to straighten things out
especially as regards to science and medicine as the technology is in many cases controversial (GMOs, stem cells, gene editing etc) and incredibly complicated.
Nothing can be done about the loss of funding, and despite government pledges to cover lost budgets the pound now buys much less research equipment and reagents than it did a year ago.
The attacks by the government on foreign doctors, students and EU workers at the Tory Conference also paints a very depressing picture
Im yet to hear a BSer in any way say how Brexit will improve something that we currently lead the world in (by some measures)
Let's measure the success of Brexit when it actually happens, so
so...nothing. Agreed lets wait. Our economy is highly synched with EU - just look at the graph. There is nothing to be gained from delighting in EU area weakness. They remain our key economic partners.
The haters and pessimists here are going to be oh so silent when eurozone crises resurfaces for real.
This is irrelevat to the debate. The impact will be the same for us (bad) irrespective of the vote. We have not had/do not have/will no have any liability to the EZ (other than in a non-collateralised IMF bailout)
TMH I can tell you the car manufacturers in France and Germany won't be enjoying life, even without tariffs their products are 10%+ less attractive to UK customers than they where 6 months ago.
Who is/will be enjoying things. Our lives have been made more difficult due to crass stupidity and lies. Trade is more complicated and more costly and the BoE has responded by stealing more of our money and taking more from the prudent to give the foolhardy. Its bllx.
just5minutes - MemberJunkyard, you're ignoring the rather awkward fact that they didn't.
Outside Schengen.
With a Veto.
with a Rebate.
We had all kinds of concessions, given to us to help us feel important.
ctk - Member
The remain campaign missed a scaremongering trick:
"No more Euromillions if we leave!"
Would have swung it IMO.
No, that cannot do. We Cannot do without Euromillions. Street protest I call.
In that case I better strike me Euromillions Jackpot quick - preferably tonight for £139 millions ... Imagine that.
We had all kinds of concessions, given to us to help us feel important.
Yes but they didn't kneel on the steps of buck house and kiss the feet of our glorious queen. They should know their bloody place.
Just a thought - presumably, just like the £ falling being good really, should unemployment rise as a result of Brexit this too would be good because it would make patriotic Britons willing to work for less in order to keep their jobs, thereby making the UK more productive and competitive - no?
Would any Leavers like to comment?
m yet to hear a BSer in any way say how Brexit will improve something that we currently lead the world in (by some measures)
Why would anyone bother to respond to insults ?
jambalaya - MemberWhy would anyone bother to respond to insults ?
so, no you dont have a response, then
Indeed, which is why it's more than odd that the nutters & co spend their time insulting our major trading partners. Stupidity personified.
Nothing like the EU exists anywhere else in the world. There is a very good reason for that.
Sapin (French Economics/Business minster) said something interesting today, the UK cannot seperate freedom of movement from the single market because if we did that it would be the end of the EU as we know it. That's the point, people throughout Europe don't want the EU as we now have it. The Commission knows its fighting for its life and their very cushy low tax jobs.
.
so, no you dont have a response, then
Just read back, we've discussed numerous times before hiw being outside the EU will create opportunities
The ministry of Brexit
xenophobic or just really really stupid?
Everybody agrees that Europe is not perfect but to change it, you need to be part of it.
In 3 years time, you will be part of nothing.
I doubt that the UK economy will totally collapse but a large number of people are going to find life a lot more difficult. That is obviously a price you are prepared to pay in pursuit of your ideology and principles.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/lse-brexit-non-uk-experts-foreign-academics ]I see the purge of the dirty foreigners has already begun. [/url]
What the **** is happening to this country? How long before we start dishing out armbands with 12 stars on them?
Nothing like the EU exists anywhere else in the world. There is a very good reason for that.
Do they still want the right to invade on a whim? Let's not forget why the EU was developed in the first place.
Just read back, we've discussed this numerous times before
as I said, no response
Government guaranteed all EU grants committed would be honoured for their life even if the project goes on after Brexi in 2019
You can be a moaner consumed by bitterness of defeat or you can take a positive attitude forward.
Take a lead from Jezza if you have to, he's all for getting on with the job of Brexit.
Take a lead from Jezza if you have to, he's all for getting on with the job of Brexit
He is a weapons grade **** after all.
[i]There are about 50% of those people that could be your family members, friends, relatives and love ones.[/i]
But this is the thing, they're not.
We had this discussion at work recently and in our small team only one person voted Leave, and the rest of us know few if anyone else that also voted leave.
So the vote seems to have split very much on geographical/class/educational lines.
jambalaya - Member
Government guaranteed all EU grants committed would be honoured for their life even if the project goes on after Brexi in 2019
of course I believe the government, theyd never lie or break a pledge
as I pointed out before because funding applied for 3, 5, 10 years in advance we have now been shut out of the worlds largest scientific grant network, 10% of science funding is now simply a huge black hole of uncertainty
and as our government spends less on R&D as % of gdp than any other than greece, portugal & italy, + the huge blow the loss of access to colaborative networks + the huge blow of loosing EU citizens from our projects
Ill just have to keep moaning that britain has become a smaller, less influential, parochial nation 🙂
Government guaranteed all EU grants committed would be honoured for their life even if the project goes on after Brexi in 2019
Well, it didn't really. But even if it did, what happens next? European research funding has transformed collaborative science and research across and beyond an entire continent. The UK has done a very good job of mopping up a lot of this funding. What are the xenophobes going to do to minimise damage to this?
ambalaya - MemberYou can be a moaner consumed by bitterness of defeat or you can take a positive attitude forward.
i don't know anyone 'consumed by bitterness'...? what an odd thing to say.
teamhurtmore - Member
Indeed, which is why it's more than odd that the nutters & co spend their time insulting our major trading partners. Stupidity personified
There is a difference between trading partners & EU bureaucrats.
The former nations/people we buy/sell to.
The latter EU bureaucrats are just non-entity administrators.
Not for you perhaps but others may be coz there are things people keep secret.b r - Member
There are about 50% of those people that could be your family members, friends, relatives and love ones.
But this is the thing, they're not.
We had this discussion at work recently and in our small team only one person voted Leave, and the rest of us know few if anyone else that also voted leave.
I don't know about the split as all I know is I do not like EU Bureaucrats coz we already have enough of them all over ...So the vote seems to have split very much on geographical/class/educational lines.
