I mean I don't sound British, I have a different culture, I certainly do not look white or hip and I live in North East working class region but I have experienced non of yours.
Yeah there's no racism here in the North East:
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http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/english-defence-league-clashes-refugee-10959512
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-31657167
GrahamS - Member
Yeah there's no racism here in the North East:
Oh ya I see I am not sure if those are local at all on both sides.
The locals really can't be arsed to protest about anything at all to be honest ...
They might look familiar but I cannot be certain they are local.
The EDL has a pretty strong North East chapter.
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https://twitter.com/northeastedl
https://www.facebook.com/NorthEastEDL/
Luckily Newcastle also has lots of decent people standing up to this nonsense:
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-unites-thousands-turn-out-8740851
ECHR. The French suspended this when they declared their state of emergency after the Charlie Ebdo / Hyper Kacher attacks 18 months ago. Interesting, I didn't know that. I knew they had suspended Schengen using the emergency powers but not the ECHR.
Fallon made an interesting point (I would it say that's the whole story) - right to liberty, as the enemy where not uniformed military there is a complexity in detaining them and if detained without trial they can bring an action. Also any claim must be investigated even if there is no evidence other than a statement, during this time the accuser has the right to a uk lawyer which was paid for via legal aid. Many of these claims where brought years later. It's easy to see how this was abused for money and poltical gain.
TMH education is all well and good , call that an aspirational goal. However that was not going to address the here and now, that needed something more practical and immediate. Also I do believe an impassionate look at real detailed data would throw up some very inconvenient truths.
Also any claim must be investigated even if there is no evidence other than a statement, during this time the accuser has the right to a uk lawyer which was paid for via legal aid. Many of these claims where brought years later. It's easy to see how this was abused for money and poltical gain.
Problem with a fair legal system really. If you exclude poeple from complaining etc. then all that gets solved and especially if you put off the people with genuine claims - how do they get justice in this new world order?
The Right To Liberty and Security (Article 5 of the ECHR) specifically allows for lawful arrest and detention:
1.
Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
(a) the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
(b) the lawful arrest or detention of a person for noncompliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation prescribed by law;
(c) the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence or when it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing after having done so;
(d) the detention of a minor by lawful order for the purpose of educational supervision or his lawful detention for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority;
(e) the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts or vagrants;
(f) the lawful arrest or detention of a person to prevent his effecting an unauthorised entry into the country or of a person against whom action is being taken with a view to deportation or extradition.2.
Everyone who is arrested shall be informed promptly, in a language which he understands, of the reasons for his arrest and of any charge against him.3.
Everyone arrested or detained in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 1 (c) of this Article shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorised by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release pending trial. Release may be
conditioned by guarantees to appear for trial.4.
Everyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings by which the lawfulness of his detention shall be decided speedily by a court and his release ordered if the detention is not lawful.5.
Everyone who has been the victim of arrest or detention in contravention of the provisions of this Article shall have an enforceable right to compensation.
So when you/Fallon says that [i]"the enemy where not uniformed military there is a complexity in detaining them and if detained without trial they can bring an action"[/i]
What you/Fallon actually mean is [i]"we'd quite like to illegally detain people without trial but those pesky Human Rights get in the way".[/i]
GrahamS - Member
The EDL has a pretty strong North East chapter.
Those people don't look like locals from the North East, if they are then they are definitely keeping a low profile coz I have never seen them faces before. The banner is a welcome banner and Not a local branch.
Generally speaking, Geordies are welcoming people but if you relocate too many new people to the region too quickly too soon I fear a backfire might happen in future.
a few pagees back I think somebody suggested I should get an Australian passport as the UK needs people who want to make it work (or not complain/criticise/question)
I'm applying for Australian citizenship - why? Becasue I can. It makes a lot of sense for me and will enable me to work within Australia and NZ without issue and have the backup of a second passport for the countries that need 6 months expiration. Also aniecdotal evidence says entering countries on Aus passports at times is easier and smoother than UK at times depending on whats going on in the world.
As for the UK - would I consider moving back in the next 6 months? No too much uncertainty.
If we get the Brexit the Mail and Jamby wants? Probably be a long time - from the outside the policies there seem to have the potential to lay waste to a generation. Persuning the dream with no regard for the consequence.
While the UK takls about kicking out immigrants etc. Spain and Portugal could do the same - who wants a bunch of non tax paying pensioners draining your health service?
It's 2016, by the time this is complete it will be 2020. A country that is activly poersuning an isolationist approach to the world will suffer.
By 2020 one of the things that will become apparent is that 90% of the stuff that was blamed on the EU will turn out to be stuff the UK government could do something about.
Not enough Dr's? Which bit of the EU stopped the UK training docs or treating them fairly? Wasn't it the government that wanted to get Jnr Docs out of the 48hr working week? Who the hell wants to see a doctor that has worked 50-60hrs already?
Building schools and funding them? Of course that was the EU stopping that.
This is before we get to the xBn pounds that is now magically worth a lot less and seems to be getting spend 3-4 times already. It's going to fund everything!!!!
If you want me to sign up to all of that tough shit.
Those people don't look like locals from the North East
I'll not link to it (because I don't agree with targeting individuals) but a bit of basic Googling gives you names, photos and addresses of some of these people. They are local.
mikewsmith - Member
If you want me to sign up to all of that tough shit.
I think nobody is going to force you to sign up to anything if you wish not. In life you should not give too much concern about others, just be at peace with yourself first and do whatever makes you happy.
I can assure you will face same poo different places. Been there done that. Same poo different places, colour, smell and environment. Same old, same old ... Stay there for min 10 years and go native then re-evaluate your views again, then compare & recall what I have said here ..."same poo different places" If you only stay for one to three years you ain't see nothing.
Sure you get them everywhere (people with extreme views etc) but so long as they keep to themselves that is their way of life.GrahamS - Member
I'll not link to it (because I don't agree with targeting individuals) but a bit of basic Googling gives you names, photos and addresses of some of these people. They are local.
I think nobody is going to force you to sign up to anything if you wish not. In life you should not give too much concern about others, just be at peace with yourself first and do whatever makes you happy.
So very true, if only we could sign up to the UK before the cock up. I've never seen a country where telling it's inhabitants (and assorted knowledgable experts) to shut up and get with the plan end well.
Sure you get them everywhere (people with extreme views etc) but so long as they keep to themselves that is their way of life.
So is standing in the middle of the toon holid racist banners and flashing yout tatts of exploding mosques keeping to themselves? If that was the other way round with religion they would be sat in a cell having a terrorism chat.
If you have not seen racism in the NE you don't have your eyes open.
[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x ]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x[/url]
Proud to be British. 🙁
And no, it's not April 1st.
Firms must list foreign workers
Well I guess it's getting hard and they would give them grief for just listing the foreign looking/sounding ones
Why the Extreme Dalmation Lickers want to limit the rights of mostly white Christians to settle in the country I don't know.
I would hav thunk they wood av wanted to flood this ****ry wiv wite peepel to outway thows breeding mooslims.
Also I do believe an impassionate look at real detailed data would throw up some very inconvenient truths.
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Chapeau sir, that is the greatest troll I have ever seen 😆
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x
Proud to be British.
And no, it's not April 1st.
Maybe have them wear a star of some sort?
The better question is what is the point of the oppositions that try to reverse the decision of the people?
Hate to burst your bubble but isnt that what democracy is all about?
Are there any UKIP policies left that haven't already been embraced by Theresa and chums as government policy, is this brave new post-Brexit world? Seems to me like Nige has now got a full house. No wonder he looks so smug. UKIP has just one MP, but it's effectively written the Tory manifesto
Brilliant! Set the controls for 1952, and hold on tight!
Hate to burst your bubble but isnt that what democracy is all about?
On the face of it.
But as I've said before, if the people want to be listened to, they have the obligation to know what the **** it is they want to be listened to about. You can't just skim the Sun and vote based on that.
Interesting article about what democracy is all about by George Monbiot in the Guardian. Don't dismiss it because it is written by the man (I can't abide him as a rule) as he does raise a few valid points.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/04/democracy-people-power-governments-policy
TMH education is all well and good , call that an aspirational goal.
I prefer to call it a basic requirement - this thread and the Brexit debate proves that
However that was not going to address the here and now,
The here and now is that immigration is not the problem that BSers make it out to be. FoM is a good thing as are the other freedoms. The real here and now is that the BSers have jeopardised those core freedoms
Also I do believe an impassionate look at real detailed data would throw up some very inconvenient truths.
Which is why you avoid the data on this issue - the best you guys came up with was to mis-use the BoE study and/or rely on anecdotes. It was shameful.
Of course, I am always willing to change my mind if you can provide the relevant data. Feel free....
But as I've said before, if the people want to be listened to, they have the obligation to know what the **** it is they want to be listened to about. You can't just skim the Sun and vote based on that.
We might as well close STW forums down right now then, let alone have elections 😉
[quote=captainsasquatch ] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x
Proud to be British.
And no, it's not April 1st.
🙁
Makes me absolutely ashamed. Sad times.
Firms must list foreign workers
What's next, make them wear a gold star?
The referendum has done a lot of damage to this country, make Britain Great again? What a sick joke.
Interesting article about what democracy is all about by George Monbiot in the Guardian
Some excellent stats in that article.. and some potentially dodgy ones too but still a good read.
The reporting of foreign employees isn't potentially quite as daft as it sounds.
There are several things going on the economy now that are undesirable:
- large employers often find it easier to hire skills abroad than invest in the training and development of existing employees.
- existing employees / low skilled workers increasingly don't have access to "ramps" to improve their skills and progress - trapping many people in low paying jobs no matter how hard they work and irrespective of any ambition they have (particularly for parents who may find it more difficult to move areas in order to progress)
- Universities are too removed from the business of developing skills the economy needs.
If we look abroad at economies like Singapore, other governments often focus on a number of strategically important industries that have the potential to create the volumes of well paid jobs the economy needs in order to fund things like good healthcare, education etc.
Those governments also align education / training to these to ensure employers can either access the skills they need or get the support to develop programmes to develop the skills in house - the German apprentice system is a good example of this. They also manage the number of migrant workers so that as the economy grows home local people have the opportunity AND skills to do the job offered by employers.
If you walk into many large companies in Britain you'll find many thousands of overseas workers doing jobs that could be done by locals if only the employers had the incentive and support to invest in more training.
Measuring the size of the gap between employers' "needs" and provision of local skilled labour doesn't seem to be a retrograde step if this informs better long term skills / training planning. It also means there will be more opportunity for people at the bottom and potentially an end to the current system whereby people on low wages are stuck there for life as the employer can always bring in someone from abroad at the same / lower wages.
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Singapore is indeed a good case study of the perils of what is being proposed - caution indeed
The reporting of foreign employees isn't potentially quite as daft as it sounds.
So how does this help? what sanction would be in place? What is holding back kids at school now from learning skills? I have met more than a few where parents are the issue.
If you walk into many large companies in Britain you'll find many thousands of overseas workers doing jobs that could be done by locals if only the employers had the incentive and support to invest in more training.
Or I look across the team that works for me and I see multicultural experience and knowledge
The reporting of foreign employees isn't potentially quite as daft as it sounds.
Yes it is. Like pretty much everything else that's been defecated out of the bile-filled mouths at the tory conference this week, it's a blatantly racist policy, designed to pressure employers into giving preference to people based on their nationality, and to further stoke the fires of racism among the general public which are already way out of control, in a cynical pursuit of votes. You can dress it up as much as you want, just like the 'legitimate concerns about immigration' bollox but we need to start calling it what it is because this road leads to a dark, depressing, and dangerous place.
Singapore, really that's your model? 😯
If you walk into many large companies in Britain you'll [s]find many thousands of overseas workers[/s] you'll see people working, paying taxes and contributing to our economy and society
A lot of my customers are foreign . If they aren't here , they aren't spending money in my shop.
This feels like the thin edge of a paricularly nasty wedge.
Its ironic that all those blue-rinses in the Tory Party conference, cheering on this racist nonsense, all live in nice leafy areas with no immigrants. Well... they may do, but they're not visible. They're behind the scenes, out of sight, in kitchens of the cafes they have their afternoon tea in.
But they know that immigration must be the cause of all the countries problems because they read it in the Daily Mail*.
They're also those who are nicely, comfortably insulated from any real world impacts such as this:
A lot of my customers are foreign . If they aren't here , they aren't spending money in my shop.
There is an interesting parallel here with what happened a while back in America. A few years ago there was a bus drivers strike in Los Angeles. All the nice comfortable, white, middle class inhabitants collectively shrugged and said 'so what! Who uses buses anyway?"
They found out the following week when the immigrant cleaners/gardeners, and any other of the previously unnoticed people, who do the menial jobs that are beneath the indigenous population, collectively failed to show up for work.
Something along those lines would happen here. Its yet another example of the cloud-cuckooland world the Brexiteers all live in
* The editorial writers of that vile rag are purring with contentment at the direction Theresa is taking the country in
Firms must list foreign workers
Amber Rudd was on Radio 4 this morning. Worth a listen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07z39tn (starts around 2:10)
She acknowledges we have "record levels of employment", but still maintains that dem immigrants are taking our jobs innit. 😕
Regarding forcing businesses to publish lists of foreign employees she said: [i]"It's not something we're definitely going to do. It's one of the tools we are going to use as a review, to see if we can use it as a way of nudging people to do better behaviour"[/i]
Strongly implying that employing foreigners is now considered bad behaviour.
The reporting of foreign employees isn't potentially quite as daft as it sounds.
Why do I get the feeling that if the government announced they were opening new internment camps where foreigners could be painlessly put to death, you'd be straight on here saying "[i]It's not such a bad idea y'know"[/i] 😆
Meanwhile, the idiots at the labour press office have issued their response to this weeks festival of racism and foreigner baiting.... 🙄
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I can't believe the Tories have decided to become quite so xenophobic.
EDIT: I wonder if the problem is that all the really clever people are no longer entering politics, and are instead earning much more money elsewhere. So we are increasingly getting the second-raters running the country.
I can't believe the Tories have decided to become quite so xenophobic
This is a remarkably accurate summary of the direction of travel of the party over the last few months....
@daz interesting discussion on Sky just now, two commentators asking where Labour where, they seem anonymous, have they given up ?
Record levels of employment doesn't mean full employment nor does it mean people at bottom end have decent wages.
RichPenny we can't even ask the right questions, look at the reaction here to the suggestion companies have to publish worker composition by nationality ? We all know that standard bearer of poor conditions and low wages Mike Ashley and Sports Direct has warehouses with a very high proportion of migrant workers. Whilst we don't have proper statistics broken down by nationality for wages, benefits etc all we will have is annecdotal evidence. Now our laws imo actually prevent the collection and publication of such information.
TMH lumping together the CEO making millions with the Sports Direct worker on below minimum wage to make a point that immigration is good is far too simplistic and intellectually bankrupt. People have seen straight through that and focus on what they can see in front of their own noses. From the limited stats we have seen it's clear that the nature of immigration from the EU changed dramatically in the last 10 years, the UK was actually mkre open allowing unlimited access for Poles immediately whilst France and Germany had restrictions. The stats we have seen show EU migrants are twice as likley to claim in work benefits and that the average amount was £6k pa that being doubke the average amount claimed by UK nations (figures from memory). We need more real data like that to make an informed choice. That data was kept from us so we all have to make a less well informed choice.
The editorial writers of that vile rag are purring with contentment at the direction Theresa is taking the country in
I'm sure they are already busy with the editorial:
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@binners as someone who has lived and worked in Asia you should hear what the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans etc have to say about Westerners and each other.
I can't believe the Tories have decided to become quite so xenophobic
Maybe someone's been putting something in their tea?
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as someone who has lived and worked in Asia you should hear what the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans etc have to say about Westerners and each other.
They're more racist than us. Well that makes it all ok then. Shall we all use the lowest common denominator as the new benchmark for tolerance? It would appear so.
What a great future we have to look forward too eh?
