It makes you wonder how anyone could ever say “it’s worth it”…
So right now the targetted ads are flashing up some betting site...
I can do a very easy economic argument ... the bookie always wins yet millions (or who knows tens of millions) bet anyway and a not insignificant number lose homes, relationships etc. and still do it?
The Govt spent £100 million on the advertising campaign for the Oct 31st Brexit.
That didn't happen either.
Money well spent!
https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave
Watch and weep. Weapons grade idiocy. These are the people who condemn us to darkness.
Festival of Brexit can be sorted very easily, just contact Rob, sorry, Banksy.
Response to CG's post on the election thread
I believe we should be making our own decisions instead of kowtowing to Brussels
1) What's the difference between kowtowing to Westminster or Brussels? I think that the only answer to this is a nationalistic one. To me, there is no difference between accepting rules from Westminster or Brussels. I'm represented in both places. The only difference is that there are non-British people in Brussels. To me that does not matter. To many Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish people, Westminster rule is being ruled by foreigners, and yet that is what you are presumably in favour of? Why not ask someone from Arkansas how they feel about being part of a United States of America. Is it so bad? Most are quite proud of it. Why couldn't we be proud of being in a United States of Europe, if it ever happened?
2) The UK isn't really 'ruled' from Brussels anyway. But in the legislation that does come from Brussels the UK is a major player. We have a lot of influence in the lawmaking. It's a collective effort - we aren't submissive. We are working WITH foreign governments, not simply taking.
3) Even if you don't like any foreigners having any influence over us, you could view it as a necessary condition of being part of a hugely beneficial trading and negotiating block. If we get rid of foreign influence, we LOSE a huge amount. I don't think many people understand that. We are currently in one of the biggest clubs on earth, we have 27 other governments working with us for mutual benefit. If we leave, we will have no-one working for our benefit and 27 of our nearest neighbours working against us, because we'll be a competitor.
The UK isn’t really ‘ruled’ from Brussels anyway. But in the legislation that does come from Brussels the UK is a major player.
THIS. We are one of the member states who propose legislation. European Commission drafts legislation which then goes to parliament for MEPs to vote on. We elect MEPs. So it's pretty similar to our own system of civil service and parliament (though more efficient).
The UK has voted against only 2% of proposed EU legislation (about 70 odd items non off then of any major constitutional importance, just stuff like food labelling). So we have been broadly in agreement with EU proposals.
How is policy developed in the European Union?
I believe we should be making our own decisions instead of kowtowing to Brussels
The flip side of this is that 27 other *sovereign* countries *were* sometimes doing things that helped *us*, even though they might not have liked it very much.
e.g. Russian sanctions following the Salisbury poisonings.
Why would they do that in future?
One of the (many) great misunderstandings is that Brussels is somehow "in charge." It isn't, it's just a convenient central location to meet up.
The UK's MEPs are fully one tenth of the European Parliament. The EU doesn't "tell us what to do" but rather in a very real sense it's the other way around. We tell a couple of dozen other countries what to do. Vive l'empire!
I idly wonder sometimes whether this whole sorry mess could have been avoided if we'd simply relocated the EU parliament buildings to Birmingham.
I believe we should be making our own decisions instead of kowtowing to Brussels
The short answer to this of course is simply "we already do."
The stupifying irony to this is, if we do leave we'll still have to conform to EU regulations if we want to have any hope of trading with mainland Europe post-brexit, only we'll no longer have any say in defining those rules. If anyone believes that the UK should "make its own rules" then it's actually a very compelling argument in favour of not leaving.
If anyone believes that the UK should “make its own rules” then it’s actually a very compelling argument in favour of not leaving.
Excellent point well made.
I'd also question how a small and progressively less relevant island like Britain would benefit from being a lone entity if a United States of Europe did form.
Edit - and thank you for your post CG, while i may not agree it is good to see other points of view.
Our most ardent leavers are more than happy for us to be kowtowing to Geneva and the unelected foreign bereaucrats of the WTO.
We will be the bitch of the world.
Having read the full post on the other thread now,
CG: I agree with most of what you've said there. But the simple fact is that leaving the EU won't help with anything you've listed, if anything it'll make it worse. Every issue you've mentioned is a domestic problem not a European one, we've done it to ourselves and we've now found a convenient scapegoat to blame it all on.
The "money we send to the EU" is simply a smokescreen. It sounds like a lot of money but in national budget terms it's pocket change. If you're a UK tax payer earning an average salary (circa £28k last I looked) then out of the five grand per year you'll pay in income tax and NI, your contribution to the EU is about £40.
If you care to know what you, personally, gain for that £40 above and beyond the national / international stuff then bang your postcode in here: https://www.myeu.uk/
The "United States of Europe" is simply tabloid scaremongering (it's a shame there isn't a catchy name for this, we could call it "project fear" or something maybe?). There's little to no appetite for this in any member state, and even if there was then as an EU member we could veto the idea if we didn't like it (unless we leave of course, then all bets are off and they can do what they want without us interfering).
If there were any truth in this sort of thing (see also, the fictional "EU army") then would it not in fact be a compelling reason to remain, so that we could either veto it or be a part of it? Would we really want 27 countries on our doorstep assembling some form of military or political powerhouse that we had no say in and were excluded from being part of?
It's all hypothetical of course as it's not happening and unlikely ever to do so, but I simply cannot fathom the logic in this as a reason for leaving. It's surely the opposite.
"The “United States of Europe” is simply tabloid scaremongering (it’s a shame there isn’t a catchy name for this, we could call it “project fear” or something maybe?)."
I call that snidetracking: deliberately saying something false to alter the direction of debate to your own advantage. There's a lot of it that goes on.
MOLGRIPS
Response to CG’s post on the election thread
4/ What does making our own decisions even mean?
If we bail out completely from anything with the word europe in it "we" still have to follow WTI rules if we want to trade under them...
If you want a plane to land in another country you need to accept rules.....
It's not like we don't set most of of our own laws anyway and most of the ones we adopt are just nobrainers anyway... reminds me of the "putting a condom on my John Thomas" sketch where the protestant wife is saying "oooh do it" and the bloke is "well that's not the point, I can if I want" ...
i've watched some of this earlier
Common Market Debate | Edward Heath | Michael Foot
70's tv debate Micheal foot and Edward Heath
notice the vastly improved debate, arguments are fully presented, not sound bites. it's interesting to see how the arguments felt so similar. And in fact a lot of the brexit issues have been about since the 70's.
I do think the big difference to then and now, is, Britain as a "empire" is gone. and so, with the growth of China and russia doing a good job of sowing disharmony, we will need closer allies more than ever. Pissing off our neighbours with a terribly organised brexit doesn't offer us the stability we need for the next couple of decades.
I do think the big difference to then and now, is, Britain as a “empire” is gone.
That ship sailed over 70 years ago. You'd have thought that we'd have managed to get our heads around it by now
Apparently not. It seems that in a lot of peoples heads its still all Spitfires, The Dambusters and Brittania ruling the waves.
Its absolutely pathetic!
cinnamon_girl
Subscriber
So what was your logic for voting for it?
Also are you still in favour?I had serious concerns about becoming a United States of Europe, the jostling for power that was going on, the gravy train, concern about some of the countries that joined the EU etc. Importantly though I felt it was costing this country far too much money.
As regards whether I’m still in favour, I look at the Tories and think God help us all.
About 2 years ago, on this thread.
If that actually was from two years ago, you scare me. It's my role to keep track of this shit and I couldn't tell you who said what 15 minutes ago.
Yeah. It just stuck in my mind. It was mainly because I'd thought of CG generally being pretty reasonable, but to have voted the way she did, for reasons that amounted to basically giving Cameron a bloody nose, gave me real pause for thought. In what way would voting leave be even registered as a vote of disapproval? I just found it really mystifying tbh.
2) The UK isn’t really ‘ruled’ from Brussels anyway. But in the legislation that does come from Brussels the UK is a major player. We have a lot of influence in the lawmaking. It’s a collective effort – we aren’t submissive. We are working WITH foreign governments, not simply taking.
Very much this.
Right up to the point where the country decided to shoot itself in the foot - again - and send a load of clowns from the Nigel Farage Show, instead of actual MEPs.
"In what way would voting leave be even registered as a vote of disapproval?"
If you're generally dissolusioned with UK politics and a smarmy PM decides to hold a referendum, it's an opportunity to register your dismay.
Not saying I agree with the approach but I understand the distaste of politicians, and the EU needs reform. I voted remain because the leave option was worse than staying.
If you’re generally dissolusioned with UK politics and a smarmy PM decides to hold a referendum, it’s an opportunity to register your dismay.
I kind of see what you are saying but is there anything more smarmy than Farrage?
There was no greater protest vote to stick it to The Man than voting for a banker called Nigel.
Smarmy? Gove? Patel?
Most of both the Leave campaign teams?
At the time of the referendum I heard a few people say they voted leave as some form of protest vote or other, not expecting for a moment that they'd actually win. Whether that was in sufficient numbers to actually affect the result though I've no idea.
Taken as a proportion of the people on this forum it was definitely enough to change the result, Cougar. Over 120 members posted to say which way they'd be voting at the start of this thread. Some of them stated why straight off, for others it became clear later from their later contributions or it was already clear from thier oft expressed views. One person who's posted in the last few day said "won't happen, don't care" then voted out. Another was recently apologetic about not having taken the possibility that Leave might win seriously and voted out as a protest. The justification of a few others fell into the protest vote category. Nationally that would have swung the vote if those people had realised what the consequences of their protest vote would be and changed their minds accordingly.
Del was surprised by CG's vote, I was even more surprised by some others; an NI resident who's quite francophile and politically in tune, someone who voted out because of something about child benefits... .
Most people who I had some idea of their views voted as I'd have expected. The leave voters very much occording to the stereotypes (and many have stopped posting or come back with a new pseudo). Some I was pleasantly surprised (because it pleases me that people are pro EU or at least not anti-EU enough to screw the economy for nearly everybody) and just a few voted leave for odd reasons, but enough to tip the balance when projected nationally.
STW has been the best insight into the dynamics of Brexit I've had when watching from the other side of the Channel because there are both Guardian and Telegraph people here even if it's the Guardian side that's most vocal and far more coherent.
it pleases me that people are pro EU or at least not anti-EU enough to screw the economy for nearly everybody
I think that's rather an on-point statement.
One of the many pro-brexit narratives post-referendum has been "if you love the EU so much..." You don't have to love the EU or even like it, you just have to recognise (and admit) that the alternative is far, far worse.
Even if leaving the EU was beneficial, not unpicking almost half a century of integration very, very carefully indeed is clearly exceptionally dangerous to anyone who's spent more than 8 seconds thinking about it. It's like agreeing to surgically separate Siamese twins with a bandsaw - at best, one of them is going to die.
"Get brexit done" is the latest oversimplification lie in a long history of them. If we "get brexit done" it won't be the end of anything, it will be the start of a very long process.
You don't need to be pro-EU, just not full of "price worth paying" bile and hatred. That is, really, what this entire argument boils down to isn't it.
Oldmanmtb here not logged in since the great password debacle and had to get a new account hence the 2.
I have sat back from most forums for well over a year mainly due to apathy...
So if we are to believe the polls we will have a Tory majority by next week and a brexit withdrawal underway and most likley a hard brexit by this time next year.(hence the grins of Baker, Francois, Mogg etc)
So then the "bill" will be presented for payment - the true cost of this will become the burden of the less well off and the architects of this will profit.
The game is over fellow remainers, we dont even have a forlorn hope.
We need to focus on what follows and how we cope with the new world order, we are going to struggle, poor people are going to have a miserable existence that may last multiple generations or indefinitely. Successive governments will try and "fix" this by deregulation, nationalisation, austerity, debt and none of these will fix it. We can not compete with anyone including the EU as all major economies can simply shut us down by regulation.
So what will the message be on the leave bus in 2030 "well you voted for this?"
I am fortunate and can probably ride the shit storm and my kids all have good sought after degrees so they can move around the world. Anyway see you all in 2021.....
my kids all have good sought after degrees so they can move around the world
If they're lucky. It'll take luck. No-one will have the right to leave the country and move somewhere else.
I’m sure they can whack another couple of years on the retirement age. “ You wanted Brexit, you will have to pay for it”
**** each and every person who voted leave and each and every **** who votes Tory.
* each and every person who voted leave and each and every * who votes Tory.
Hear, hear!
https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1202896184794374144?s=21
https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1202899910879842304?s=21
https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1202901343289192448?s=21
Johnson is a liar when it comes to his form of Brexit (just like everything else). There is a good reason why every single candidate standing to be an MP in NI is against his withdrawal agreement.
Molgrips
If they’re lucky. It’ll take luck. No-one will have the right to leave the country and move somewhere else.
I'm surprised you are pointing that out ... it's one reason I have to hold my nose if I vote for Corbyn's Labour (pending last minute tactical voting)
Perhaps you think that is an acceptable price for true socialism but to me it's as own goal as the UKIP crap just put through my letter box that starts "It's been 79 years since the battle of Britain, fought to defend our nation from a foreign power?"
Presumably I don't need to explain the irony of that .. but the irony of far left countries being the only ones I can think of that prevented their citizens leaving.
Yes, ending FoM, by any party, is removing rights from workers. At least Labour are offering us the chance to vote to keep it. I consider what is on offer from the Tories, without a referendum to accept it, very much along the lines of Communist countries having internal travel documents to stop workers moving, and emigration controls to enslave the population.
The issue I see with the election is that is is an election of unicorns and cats...
By "The cats"... I mean cat's in bags where the obvious cat that will be impossible to put back will be Brexit.... but the Tory's are even busier with their "communist after it failed" controls and removing democracy.... whereas I see this is just somewhere Labour would end up if they have a 2nd Ref and it's leave...
I'm not unsympathetic for example with the SNP.... but I don't think it should be pushed as a condition... and universal suffrage for 16 yr olds is IMHO a mixed bag. (Sounds good now as they will mostly vote the way I like) .... and whereby I can see the relevance over a referendum that is itself the cat in the bag and affects them the most I'd also worry we have now compulsory education to 18... and certainly how I was at 18...and how that would be today with social media.
A dose of reality as regards “Get Brexit Done” nonsense from, er, The Telegraph…?
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1202849876201164801?s=21
The pound is above referendum levels against the Euro for the first time since the referendum. It appears that the prospect of a significant Tory majority and some technical stuff are behind the rise. Having decided to pull the plug on our last remaining UK investments I'm trying to decide when to move. Tuesday seems like a good day. Any opinions?
I’m surprised you are pointing that out … it’s one reason I have to hold my nose if I vote for Corbyn’s Labour (pending last minute tactical voting)
I don't know what you mean here.
I don't think that we will be prevented from leaving the country. But we won't have the right to live and work in other countries if we aren't EU citizens. So we can leave on holiday but we will have to come back, unless we are lucky.
Molgrips
I don’t know what you mean here.
I don’t think that we will be prevented from leaving the country. But we won’t have the right to live and work in other countries if we aren’t EU citizens. So we can leave on holiday but we will have to come back, unless we are lucky.
Except that is what has happened in stages to multiple socialist countries.
Failure to deliver the promised utopia and human nature lead to increased control of the population (for the common good) and often this results in loss of freedoms or "we just need to be even more socialist"...
How else are Labour going to prevent people like Aron Banks just leaving their jurisdiction?
Not that I disagree with that but then the gradual authoritarianism has started and drawing a line becomes an ever shifting line... eventually we can justify preventing nurses leaving .. after all the state paid for their training...
It is however a risk not a definite ... and when compared against the pretty much complete repression of democracy and controls in the Tory Manifesto (Pg 48) a far more acceptable risk.
