Johnson’s Brexit will end up punishing working leavers far more than remainers
Good.
This is exactly why it’s been sold to working class people as an opportunity for them. Notice how the language used has changed over the months – no one mentions Sovereignty or taking back control anymore. The language around immigration has become much less subtle it’s inferred without being specifically promised that jobs might be easier to come by for working class Leave voters, who either do not understand or do not believe that their rights are to be legislated away.
I'm pretty sure that 'getting it done' is being sold now and not mentioning what it actually is.
Nearly there…
oh hi THM, been a while. Back to offer some more wisdom? Most generous of you.
I can say with a high degree of confidence that is not thm
That is striking. Penny finally dropping amongst the population?
I think that May's rush to A50 without any public process of establishing what we actually want was the biggest mistake here amongst many.
yet another missed opportunity for Brexit Britain... not just the jobs but the access to battery tech that gives the ability to make renewables even more viable
I wouldn't blame Elon for this choice, I'd choose Berlin over the UK if I were in his shoes
To be fair Berlin has been on the up for quite a few year amongst tech companies. Cheap, trendy, Germany in general is pretty Anglo friendly so finding management that can converse with any American owners is easy
That is striking. Penny finally dropping amongst the population?
Which Yougov poll?
If this is the millennials one then hardly surprising.
A huge number of leave voters are retired anyway... and that's the ones that are not dead.
I think that May’s rush to A50 without any public process of establishing what we actually want was the biggest mistake here amongst many.
It's a catalogue of mistakes ... I truly wonder how historians will recount this period...
I think that May’s rush to A50 without any public process of establishing what we actually want was the biggest mistake here amongst many.
Corbyn was, of course, in no way complicit.
It’s a catalogue of mistakes … I truly wonder how historians will recount this period…
Whoever ends up writing the history of this clusterfsck wil say want they are paid to. In some ways it will not matter for the same reasons as we have issues now... If the history fits without world view, it will be treated as truth, if it does not, or is contrary, then it will be ignored or treated as fake news and ignored.
Maybe a reliable unbiased version will be found some day, written by an unbiased observer from another country, someone respected, but I suspect that this will be treated the same way.
History is written by the victors and all that.
Corbyn was, of course, in no way complicit.
May's move forced him to go along with it I think.
May’s move forced him to go along with it I think.
How?
He's the leader of the opposition ... he's meant to oppose.
I see the entire opposite... Corbyn's apathy is what allowed May to go along with "Brexit means Brexit", failure to point out the lies that HIS voters had succumbed to for fear that was branding them as stupid? Reliance on Cameron (a Tory) to lead Remain?
He’s the leader of the opposition … he’s meant to oppose.
More accurately they are supposed to push their policies. That may or may not include opposing.
For the article 50. The issue was they couldnt start negotiations until that was done.
Reliance on Cameron (a Tory) to lead Remain?
No there was an active campaign by all accounts. It just didnt get the same press.
They needed to keep a distance from the tories. They got bitten by that in the Scottish referendum.
Corbyn did allow himself to be pushed into immediate a 50
Poor judgement from him at best
Poor judgement from him at best
with hindsight by the Labour party perhaps. But I'm reasonably sure if given the chance again, Corbyn would push for it, as he is personally a massive supporter of Brexit.
He’s the leader of the opposition … he’s meant to oppose.
Er no, that would just lead to meaningless gainsaying of whatever government says. He's meant to provide an alternative view. He is however constrained by electability, and in the light of the referendum he still had to appeal to voters just like May did. This coming from a political landscape where everyone was afraid of losing voters to UKIP.
We'd all love a powerful champion for remain but you cannot ignore the referendum result.
Corbyn did allow himself to be pushed into immediate a 50
What the actual ****!
Bullshit of the highest order.
Who was pushing him when he called for immediate triggering of A50 before any other major politician, never mind any of any standing in his own party?
For the article 50. The issue was they couldnt start negotiations until that was done.
Couldn’t have started negotiations with the EU… but that was not the point… deciding how we wanted to Leave, and what new relationship we should seek with the EU&EEA, was what needed to happen before A50 was triggered.
We’d all love a powerful champion for remain but you cannot ignore the referendum result.
Act in haste, repent at leisure. Lots of ways to act based on the referendum result rather than push for A50 to be triggered ASAP, and claim that FoM must end [poor forgotten Norway, we’re so in denial] and rule out staying involved in the Single Market.
Who was pushing him when he called for immediate triggering of A50 before any other major politician
His electoral base?
So I'm a remainer.
My constituency is Con/LibDem - Labour stand no chance.
The Tories want a hard Brexit
Labour want a red Brexit
Libdem want to revoke but apparently Swinson is untrustworthy and a vote for them is a vote for Tory Lite.
Who do I vote for?
Who do I vote for?
Whoever has a chance of reducing Johnson’s number of MPs by one.
slowoldman
Subscriber
So I’m a remainer.
My constituency is Con/LibDem – Labour stand no chance.
The Tories want a hard Brexit
Labour want a red Brexit
Libdem want to revoke but apparently Swinson is untrustworthy and a vote for them is a vote for Tory Lite.
Who do I vote for?
Lib Dems of course. Even if you do believe the lib dems are tory lite- which isn't really true- then that's still better than Tory Original. I mean, what's the absolute worst case?
There's that weird thing that people did when it was May vs Corbyn, of saying "Well Corbyn would probably try and do good things, but ineffectually. May on the other hand will do horrible things, but effectively. So I'll vote for her. I mean, in the end she turned out to be both awful AND useless, but it's not like being really efficiently awful is a selling point. Diet evil is still better than full fat evil.
(I'm absolutely sure that Labour do want a red brexit; but equally sure that the brexit they want is impossible. The difference between their fantasy brexit and the Tory one, is that the Tories will use promises of unicorns to deliver the really shite brexit which they actually want. Whereas Labour are more likely to try to deliver unicorns, and then when they can't, go "Ah ****, unicorns don't exist after all. We could just get some massive wood screws and drill them into a pony's face, but it wouldn't really be the same, we'd better not eh. Shame, I'd have liked a unicorn")
I’m absolutely sure that Labour do want a red brexit; but equally sure that the brexit they want is impossible.
This is a ruse, to make it look like they tried to placate Brexiteers, but knowing full well they can't so they wouldn't have to face the economic consequences.
Mmm. Maybe. For sure there are Labour supporters and party members who genuinely believe that they can deliver their perfect brexit if given the chance. Whether Corbyn and Co believe the same, I'm not certain.
Which matters, since it demonstrates a lack of basic competence... But may matter less than the result (I'd be almost as happy for brexit to not happen because of incompetence, as I would be through cleverness. It's less good in the long term though)
Jesus! are we still on this? I thought it was all a bad dream. Remember the good old days, when all we talked about was wood burners and Skoda Octavias.
It’s the gift that keeps on giving.
It can “just get done” by Xmas, don’t worry, Johnson has assured us.
[a promise from the last person in Britain you can trust]
Who do I vote for?
You vote for the party most likely to oust / defeat the tory. Due to our archaic and undemocratic system its the only thing you can do. Its a condemnation of our system that the only sensible way to vote is to vote negatively ie you vote for the person most likely to beat the representative of the party you like least
Sigh, I knew I shouldn't have posted that. Of course I know who to vote for, it was a snipe at the "don't vote for Swinson, you'll just get a Tory" brigade. What else CAN I do FFS?
So I am a remainer and also anti Scottish Independence.
My constituency is Tory now but was SNP pre 2017. Before that it was Lib Dem.
I can't see Lib Dem winning it back, the gap is too big to jump. A vote for Lib Dem could help Tory retain the seat. It feels like I am forced into voting SNP to ensure Tory lose the seat, even though I am no fan of SNP, their single focus on independence or their ability to run a decent (devolved) government.
It is a mess.
Awesome skewering of Trump and Brexit up to the 33 minute mark, well worth a listen.
"The great example of this, is what I think will be seen as the extraordinary, awful or splendid depending on your view, defeat of the United States in the first major cyberwar of our century in 2016. The result of which is that the president of the United States is the payload of a Russian cyber weapon"
This is cheering me up.
I think I may day of scahdenfreude
Arron Banks Twitter account has been hacked & has been used to send out lots of his alleged private messages
https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1196796803896741888
And Wigmore has helpfully confirmed the leak, so it’s genuine.
I really hope these messages are real
What good will they do, really?
The true brexleivers will just call it fake news and carry on regardless.
seems the raab 'nortehrn momkeys' one is fake 🙁
It makes you wonder how anyone could ever say "it's worth it"...
